Skyrim: Stormcloak or Empire?

[Kimarous]

snip

So if the Nords held a lottery on which person to sacrifice so their crops would grow, purely on basis from tradition, that's all well and good? Harmful traditions are harmful, and is blindly following them. Furthermore, I have yet to see any Nordic traditions being suppressing beyond that and the Talos worship.

Also, you give the Thalmor too much credit. There's a bloody public shrine in Markarth, a city explicitly watched over by a Thalmor overseer, and this fool can't find one Talos worshipper despite this obvious shrine.

And no, I'm not stereotyping the Stormcloaks on two drunks. I'm going by every Stormcloak soldier I've encountered telling me to send any "true sons and daughters of Skyrim" to Windhelm to join their ranks. It doesn't take an idiot to know that specifically refers to Nords. I'm playing a non-Nord, so their lack of specific "You, personally, ought to join our cause" makes it all the more obvious. Furthermore, Ulfric doesn't give a rat's ass about the people suffering in his city, yet the very first thing his Imperial replacement does is speak to the Dark Elves about renovating their slum. Truly a person to be feared and reviled!

 

[WolfThomas]

Mind if I ask what victory? If the Empire lost the first time at full strength how are they going to win this time around?

Attrition. Men breed faster than Mer, even if we lose the next war and the one after that, short of the Thalmor exterminating us (which they would do if given the chance), we win eventually.

 

[Outcast107]

snip

So if the Nords held a lottery on which person to sacrifice so their crops would grow, purely on basis from tradition, that's all well and good? Harmful traditions are harmful, and is blindly following them. Furthermore, I have yet to see any Nordic traditions being suppressing beyond that and the Talos worship.

Also, you give the Thalmor too much credit. There's a bloody public shrine in Markarth, a city explicitly watched over by a Thalmor overseer, and this fool can't find one Talos worshipper despite this obvious shrine.

And no, I'm not stereotyping the Stormcloaks on two drunks. I'm going by every Stormcloak soldier I've encountered telling me to send any "true sons and daughters of Skyrim" to Windhelm to join their ranks. It doesn't take an idiot to know that specifically refers to Nords. I'm playing a non-Nord, so their lack of specific "You, personally, ought to join our cause" makes it all the more obvious. Furthermore, Ulfric doesn't give a rat's ass about the people suffering in his city, yet the very first thing his Imperial replacement does is speak to the Dark Elves about renovating their slum. Truly a person to be feared and reviled![/quote

So can I go on and say who every guard is racist asshole just because they say "I'm keeping a eye on your lizard"! Then fine, lets do that. Every single guard/soldier in teh game is racist. Cause all they say to me is "Watch it lizard." Thanks fore clearing that up. Also who says the Talos temple is open? Or better yet, who in their right minds will go inside the place when Thalmor are around? Also who to say they haven't already kidnap some people around their? hmm?

Also if they are Racist as you say, why are they even talking to you? why even tell you to send "true" sons of skyrim to Windhelm? if they were Truely racist then they would say something on the lines as "Get out of the way lizard." or "Damn lizard" or some other lame insult. (Oh no Insults! Truly the real threat to everyone!) Plus if you can't admit the Empire is far worst for LETTING half of this happen to the civilians. You know, the Empire you are fighting, not caring that much.

Also if Ulfric is so damn greedy then why did he say "I'll let the moot decide." Sure, he probably knows he going to get pick. But that's a damn big gamble to place on the other half of Skyrim who were Pro-Imperial.

One more thing, Windhelm is the oldest city in Skyrim. He getting no support form the Empire, so he has to do what he has. He running a war so he can't focus on his town that much. Which would you focus on more. The fate of Skyrim or the problems of the town which your guards should be able to handle.

Plus nice little argument at the start. I'm sure its fine and dandy if you get to choose what people get to do with their lives right? Just want to say, tradition DO come and go, but its up to the people to do it. Not some foreign power to come in and say what is right.

 

[Outcast107]

Mind if I ask what victory? If the Empire lost the first time at full strength how are they going to win this time around?

Attrition. Men breed faster than Mer, even if we lose the next war and the one after that, short of the Thalmor exterminating us (which they would do if given the chance), we win eventually.

That's IF they can hold off the next war. Plus who to say the Thalmor are going to go easy on the Empire next time? Why not just kill off the Empire and be done with it. The Thalmor, again, are not morons. They will see that the Empire is going to keep trying to "buy" time so no point in giving them a second chance.

 

[Kimarous]

So can I go on and say who every guard is racist asshole just because they say "I'm keeping a eye on your lizard"! Then fine, lets do that. Every single guard/soldier in teh game is racist. Cause all they say to me is "Watch it lizard." Thanks fore clearing that up. Also who says the Talos temple is open? Or better yet, who in their right minds will go inside the place when Thalmor are around? Also who to say they haven't already kidnap some people around their? hmm?

Also if they are Racist as you say, why are they even talking to you? why even tell you to send "true" sons of skyrim to Windhelm? if they were Truely racist then they would say something on the lines as "Get out of the way lizard." or "Damn lizard" or some other lame insult. (Oh no Insults! Truly the real threat to everyone!) Plus if you can't admit the Empire is far worst for LETTING half of this happen to the civilians. You know, the Empire you are fighting, not caring that much.

Also if Ulfric is so damn greedy then why did he say "I'll let the moot decide." Sure, he probably knows he going to get pick. But that's a damn big gamble to place on the other half of Skyrim who were Pro-Imperial.

One more thing, Windhelm is the oldest city in Skyrim. He getting no support form the Empire, so he has to do what he has. He running a war so he can't focus on his town that much. Which would you focus on more. The fate of Skyrim or the problems of the town which your guards should be able to handle.

Plus nice little argument at the start. I'm sure its fine and dandy if you get to choose what people get to do with their lives right? Just want to say, tradition DO come and go, but its up to the people to do it. Not some foreign power to come in and say what is right.

You have some really weird leaps and bounds in your interpretation of my words. When did I ever say anything about Ulfric being greedy? I said that he stirred things up and he doesn't care about his city. You pull the "well, he's concentrating on the war" card... might I remind you who started the war?

Also, you keep blathering on about how I want to decide how people run their lives and blah blah blah. That is far from the truth. I'm asking "are these worth fighting for?", a point you continually avoid answering.

Furthermore, I have NEVER used the word "racist" at all in this topic. I've only asserted that the Stormcloaks exclusively care about the Nord population. Also, you say yourself that ALL guards pull those various insults; need I remind you that Stormcloak regions have guards as well? Isn't Ulfric and his allies equally "worst" for allowing that to happen to civilians? Tsk tsk tsk. Come on... quit acting like it's the Empire is at fault for everything they do.

Lastly, I want to clarify that I'm just anti-Stormcloak, not pro-Imperial.

 

[Outcast107]

snip

Well excuse me if someone who is anti-stormcloak always bring up that all are racist, Ulfric is greedy, and so on and so forth. Plus your basis of why Stormcloaks are "bad" is naive. And when did I say Empire is all the fault? I'm just saying Empire cause as much problems as the Stormcloaks has, and you seem to be giving a blind eye to it.

Plus how you type make you seem you were talking about racist. Make your post clear next time cause most people use the same wording for stormcloaks=racist. Plus I said ALL guards, which means every..single..one. So OF course I was also talking about stormcloaks as well.

One last thing, if you were running a war. Would you

A)Send help to people who are supporting you.
B)Send help to people who will not support you and not even take a side.

See all the non-nords are not going to pick a side. Which is why one of the reason Stormcloaks are "Skyrim for Nords" or "True sons and daughters of Skyrim go to Windhelm." Cause they are pretty much the only one who cares about Skyrim.

Lastly I just want to say, I don't care who wins I just get sick and tired of people just going on how bad Stormcloaks are, and giving a HUGE blind eye to what the Empire has done.

 

[Doclector]

The stormcloaks are racist, but the empire are generally assholes.

So basically, I don't know. By the way, does your side affect what settlments you may (safely) visit?

Also, I haven't actually met either of the leaders yet, so that may effect things. At the beginning, I went with the stormcloak prisoner, because...well...siding up with the guy who was going to freakin' execute me even though I wasn't even on the damn list seemed like a bad idea. Sure, he seemed regretful about it, but still...I was going to be freakin' executed. He could've put up more of an argument.

 

[JB1528]

The stormcloaks are nothing but a bunch of racist ultra-nationalistic assholes. And since I'm a black guy playing a dark elf I happily joined the empire and wipe out the stormcloaks whenever I see them.

 

[Primus1985]

Playing through with my Nord (Thor Odinson XD) I couldnt help but be stormcloak. However I am weighing my decision now. The way Ulfric killed King Torryeg was kinda messed up. Ok he accepted the challenge to fight ok thats good, but... you used your shout magic? No one knew you had that much less that you would use it in a fight seeing as you studied with the Greybeards. I mean your both Nords, you had to think a duel would be a straight up sword and shield affair. It'd be no different from whipping out a bolt of lightning. His justifications are water thin to say the least...


However the Imperial/Thalmor reign of terror must be put down! These evil elves kidnap and torture innocents for their sick purposes, and the Imperium does nothing! At the begining of the game I kept hearing "Talos" and I was like WTF, then I ran into the ranting priest in Whiterun who told me of his other name "Tiber Septim". I was like "Hell why didnt you mention Tiber Septim before? I know that" Your telling me that the Empire is going to abandon the worship of the maan/god that founded the Empire in the first place? Thats BS! The elves dont want to belive that Talos rose to heaven and became a god, who knows why, maybe good old fashioned racism.

Talos is a real god in the Elder scrolls verse, hello you pray at his shrine and he blesses you. Thats proof enough for me.

That the Empire would allow these hateful elves to oppress the people of Sksyrim is unforgiveable. Im considering joining the Dark Brotherhood(instead of destroying them) if only to kill the Emperor.

 

[Kimarous]

Lastly I just want to say, I don't care who wins I just get sick and tired of people just going on how bad Stormcloaks are, and giving a HUGE blind eye to what the Empire has done.

Again, I could argue the same points. From my perspective, it is the Empire that is blown out of proportion and the Stormcloaks that get understated.

Ultimately, the main reason I back the Imperials is because I hate the Stormcloaks' leaders. I could break down why the individual Jarls on both sides appeal to me more than the other and whatnot, but I don't feel like rambling on at this time. Maybe later? I don't know, but that is the core reason I back the Imperials.

However, I would like to argue one last point in favour of the Imperials. Rather, why it is important for Skyrim to remain part of the Empire. Everyone keeps forgetting this, but Skyrim's value is more than just the Nordic population; it also unites the Empire over land. If Skyrim broke off, how would the Imperial Legion go from High Rock to Cyrodiil or vice versa in a pinch? They can't scurry though Skyrim anymore, and Hammerfell is a no-go; they'd have to load up on ships, where they could easily be intercepted by Thalmor fleets.

Many Stormcloak supporters I've seen argue that if the Thalmor invade Skyrim, it would be from the treacherous coastline... a horrible invasion point, and then it would be fighting the Nords on their own turf. Hammerfell held them off this way, why can't the Nords? The big issue I see is that this relies purely on limited entry points. The Thalmor can only attack Hammerfell from the coast, and Skyrim would have the same advantage. What happens, then, when High Rock and Cyrodiil fall? The Thalmor get land bridges, multiple entryways... a chance to overwhelm. Not just Skyrim itself, but Hammerfell as well. Perhaps the Nords can hold the freezing coast, but can they simultaneously defend the passes in Falkreath and the Reach? What also happens if they enslave the Bretons, Imperials, and even Redguards? They have the numbers to overwhelm as well as envelop. Looking at the big picture, Skyrim's independence seems to only doom it in the long run.

That's how I see it, at least.

 

[Outcast107]

snip

I can respect that. Though I do say give Ulrfic chance. I went to listen to his speech when you first meet him in his castle and he doesn't seem that truly bad. He doesn't really want to attack Whiterun and offer them a chance to join his side. Hoping the Jarl of Whiterun will make the right choice.

He also just really piss off that he fought for the Empire against the Thalmor, saw his soldiers die around him. Then return to find out that the Empire he fought for turn their backs against them.

One last counter point. The way I see it, the Thalmor will have their forces way to spread out if Skyrim is independent. They will have to keep a eye on

1) Empire, they probably already know that war will be coming soon so they will have forces ready.

2) Within their own lands, due to the rebellion going on.

3) Hammerfell/Skyrim. I'm sure these two provinces will be more then ready to strike when ready. (Ulfric himself said it's about time they pay the elves a visit.)

Even if Hammerfell/Skyrim do not team up, it doesn't mean they will not attack the Thalmor directly. Though it just my theory, but it's the only way to make sure the Thalmor lost. To split them up so thin that they can hold on to anything anymore.

It was a nice debate, hopefully we can continue like this some other time.

 

[tiger8u2]

Ultimately, the choice doesn't matter because either way Skyrim is still left a fractured country which will continually be preyed upon by the Thalmor.

In my humble opinion, there should have been a third choice, or at least a quest line that includes the Forsworn as a force that could and would tip the balance in the civil war and later restoration and defense against the elven menace.

Ulfric/Imperials would have had to give up Markath and the Reach but the benefit of a Forsworn alliance would have left Skyrim more powerful and able to fend off the Thalmor threat.

It would have been nice to see Ulfric humble himself for the betterment of his country. Don't know if the Imperial quest line includes any overtures to the Forsworn but if not, it would be a grave tactical error on their part.

I personally chose the Stormcloaks because I always play a Nord and despite the nationalist/racist undertones, (And Ulfric's Dossier), fighting for religious freedom and independence from foreign rule is a good enough reason for me.

When I eventually put my blade into the Emperor himself, as he had foreseen I would, we both knew it was the right thing to do.

Of course I also killed my cowardly employer at the Emperor's request, ensuring the Imperial council knows the "Sons of Skyrim" are nobody to mess with. =P

 

[SpaceBat]

Probably siding with the empire, although I spend my time waging a personal war against the Thalmor. I just wish the rest of Skyrim would join me in doing this.

 

[The Bum]

The Empire, I like Rome,and I'll not betray my Empire just because we had a rough war, and some racist, xenophobic, power hungry rebel who doesn't have the guts to stand by his country tells me to rebel. Not to mention, once the Empire is kicked out of Skyrim (Like that could happen ), the Thalmor will just roll in and crush the lot of them.

Spoiler

Just like they planned

 

[Outcast107]

The Empire, I like Rome,and I'll not betray my Empire just because we had a rough war, and some racist, xenophobic, power hungry rebel who doesn't have the guts to stand by his country tells me to rebel. Not to mention, once the Empire is kicked out of Skyrim (Like that could happen ), the Thalmor will just roll in and crush the lot of them.

Spoiler

Just like they planned

You do know that the Empire pretty much betray their allies for themselves right? They gave away Hammerfell to the Thalmor, ban the worship of Talos, and pretty much disbanded the blades (Who were mostly all killed due to the Thalmor.)

Also a Skyrim Victory to the Thalmor is also on the avoided list. You know why? Because IF the Empire gets kick out (Which it will, since it to weak from the great war/treaty) then the Thalmor presence will also be gone. Meaning the Thalmor has no eyes to spy within Skyrim.

Also, like my early post said, they will be stretch to thin to do any real damage. From keeping a eye on the Empire to make sure they don't get suprise attack, to work out a strike force against Skyrim (Which the only way it seem is by boat), as well as dealing with the rebels within their own homeland, plus any attacks from Hammerfell.

One last thing, the Empire is also letting (And probably helping) the Thalmor round up the Empire own civilians to be torture and killed on the grounds of either supporting the Stormcloaks or being Talos worshipers. Which they can do this to anyone, even if they are not supporting the stormcloaks.

 

[A Weary Exile]

I tend to choose whatever I think my "Character" would choose, not necessarily which one I think is the just faction. For instance: my Orc and Argonian characters sided with the Empire, mainly because of the xenophobia in the Stormcloak's supporters, whereas my Altmer mage sided with the Stormcloaks because a weakened Empire means opportunities for the Aldmeri Dominion to make a move on Skyrim.

 

[SoranMBane]

In the end, it doesn't really matter all that much because both sides have flaws and virtues that seem to cancel each other out. As long as the civil war ends, the Aldmeri Dominion's power is that much closer to being broken, which is the truest victory I can think of. That said, ending the war does nothing if the Thalmor can just beat down whichever side wins, so I went with the side that I felt would have the best chance of eventually standing up to them, which was the Empire. Also, that Thalmor document you find on Ulfric Stormcloak during "Diplomatic Immunity" quest uses language that seems to imply that, while a victory on either side would muck up their plans to a certain extent, an Imperial victory would be more of a problem for them than a Stormcloak one.

So, yes, my decision had less to do with which side I liked or admired the most and more to do with which side's victory would most hurt the Thalmor. In fact, between nearly having my head chopped off by the Empire and hearing Ulfric's rather impressive speech on freedom and why he fights, I'd have to say I like him quite a bit more on a personal level. If the Thalmor weren't an issue, I'd have joined him in a heartbeat, but they are, so the Empire just seems more practical.

 

[The Bum]

You do know that the Empire pretty much betray their allies for themselves right? They gave away Hammerfell to the Thalmor, ban the worship of Talos, and pretty much disbanded the blades (Who were mostly all killed due to the Thalmor.)

Survival of the Empire as a whole takes precedence over one province. How many Imperials do you think actually enforce that law? (Hasn't someone else already refuted that argument?) Yes; the Blades were disbanded, but for a good reason! They had suffered such losses that the benefits of having such an organization were outweighed by the benefits of peace, time to lick our wounds and prepare for another go.

Also a Skyrim Victory to the Thalmor is also on the avoided list. You know why? Because IF the Empire gets kick out (Which it will, since it to weak from the great war/treaty) then the Thalmor presence will also be gone. Meaning the Thalmor has no eyes to spy within Skyrim.

They won't need to spy, because they'll just take over. Do you think that a single province can hold off such huge numbers?

Also, like my early post said, they will be stretch to thin to do any real damage. From keeping a eye on the Empire to make sure they don't get suprise attack, to work out a strike force against Skyrim (Which the only way it seem is by boat), as well as dealing with the rebels within their own homeland, plus any attacks from Hammerfell.

A valid point you may have; but a unified Empire has better attacking capabilities than an alliance (A very unlikely alliance; I mean come on, allying with the people you just rebelled from?) of three nations, who would no doubt be squabbling about everything, as people are wont to do.

One last thing, the Empire is also letting (And probably helping) the Thalmor round up the Empire own civilians to be torture and killed on the grounds of either supporting the Stormcloaks or being Talos worshipers. Which they can do this to anyone, even if they are not supporting the stormcloaks.

Letting; yes, a necessary sacrifice, it's bad I know, but if a handful (in the grand scheme of things) of people must die so that the whole may live, then I'm alright with it. As for your accusation of the Empire helping the Thalmor round up our people, I ask, what evidence do you have of this?

Besides, the Stormcloaks are still nationalist, racist, ect. Do you have any counterpoints to that?

 

[Biodeamon]

imperial. I accidently sided with the imperials in the beggining becuase the only guy hlping me was attacked by rebels so in a heat of the moment thing i kind of attacked them.

later i was on the fence wther or not to join the imperials but then i thought about it and realized that the imperials have better power, they've already done an ok job of running the empire and they are a bit more friendly. the thing made me join the imperials however was that stormcloaks are complete jerks. one of them even called me "lizard".

 

[Doc Gnosis]

Played as an Altmer in Skyrim, and found myself disappointed that no fantastic display of racism was slung towards me apart from the standard 'we hate elves' remarks. Couldn't even join the Thalmor even after finding a Talos worshipper in Markarth...

Anyway, it's a tough choice since neither option really works in the end. Ideally I think the civil war would be necessary for reforging the Empire's remains; after years of fighting people could pick up the pieces and start anew. On another note Skyrim was depicted as the origin point for the coming of man, and where the Empire of Tamriel begun. The game evokes the possibility of creating a new kingdom or a new fate in the fourth era.

But given the choice between the two I'd side with the Empire, mostly because there could still be something worth saving and renewing in it. If the Stormcloak's motivations were better fleshed out or expanded more upon them, I would've been persuaded to side with them. As it stands they're just doing the right things but for the wrong reasons, and that's what's keeping me from talking with them.