Skyrim: Yeah, it's good, but...

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Frostbite3789

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King of the Sandbox said:
You guys are winrars in my book. This game is my own personal D&D simulator. I do the exact same things. In fact, I've been updating my Facebook status like a journal written by my character, putting the adventures I've run into in a more creative form, reminiscent of what I do as I actually play.

Skyrim is a toolset, a campaign, an awesome set of DM core rules that let you go out and craft your own tale, indeed.
And yet if I recall correctly you were against co-op in Skyrim?

What you described right there sounds ideal setup for it. Hell, remove the main quest line and just let us go on a romp in Skyrim, creating our own adventures.

And I remember some people saying "OMG I NO WANT PLAY WITH RANDOMS1!!!111!!"

Well...don't. If you can't find people in the gaming community, at sites like this to play with, just don't play the co-op. It's pretty damn simple, but nobody wants to see the simple solution I guess.

Some people would argue "It would take up development resources" well do it as DLC/xpack. Or bring in another team to work on that aspect. It's not like they're going to cut the money going to a TES game.
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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spartan231490 said:
Disagree with every one of your points, especially the hint that skyrim isn't a great game, because it is. It's the greatest game of the console generation, if not the decade.
Well, I guess there had to be one.
 

Sight Unseen

The North Remembers
Nov 18, 2009
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Well that's inevitably the problem with huge open world games. The more features you add, the less depth those features can have, unless you have a HUGE budget. That said, the dungeons in Skyrim have all been pretty unique and almost every one has at least one really cool moment in it (BTW, that dungeon for the Greybeard fetch quest was absolutely jaw-dropping for me, so its worth a look at least) just find and explore a Dwemer ruin and tell me that all the dungeons are the same. There's a lot more variety here than other games of this type, and a TON more variety than Oblivion had.

Even the towns to me all have a unique feel to them, and I can even look past a bit of the shallow characters and fill in the details myself a bit.\

OT: the UI could use some work, and although the motives behind the sidequests seem a lot more varied and interesting, the sidequests still almost always resort to: "go to dungeon X halfway across the world and find item y/kill person z" which gets a bit wearing, even though the landscapes and dungeons are still wowing me on a regular basis.
 

Frostbite3789

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Zhukov said:
spartan231490 said:
Disagree with every one of your points, especially the hint that skyrim isn't a great game, because it is. It's the greatest game of the console generation, if not the decade.
Well, I guess there had to be one.
I mean, he might as well have said, "I disagree with your opinion and submit my own opinion that shows I disagree with you. But I present my opinion as fact."

I wouldn't pay him an ounce of attention.
 

JasonBurnout16

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Zhukov" post="9.324821.13293248 said:
What very nearly kills it for me is the utter lack of focus. The huge amount of content means that the game has to spread itself out to a truly painful degree. None of the characters are the least bit fleshed out and the locations all flash by in minutes. Nothing has any depth or weight to it. In short, there's nothing to get invested in, with the possible exception of decorating your in-game house.quote]

This - very much this!

Although i found that the huge amount of content hasn't lead to the game being spread out to a painful degree but shoving too much down your throat at one time. At the moment adding up every quest and objective I have comes to 50+ things to do. And 28 of those are missions (Not the misc ones!)

Although I am still playing the game, I have completed the Greybeards first fetch mission and have just left it at that.
 

Xanadu84

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It is overwhelmingly beloved and enjoyed, so right there you have to be a pretentious idiot to call it bad. If a game makes a lot people happy, then thats pretty much all it has to do to be, "A success". However, my playing of it makes me think that maybe, I should have waited until a price drop. I suppose that given what its trying to do, it is impressive, but im thinking that its just not my kind of game.

The biggest thing is that for me, Open World usually translates to "Unfocused, sloppy storytelling" Yeah, it increases the investment you have in the story by giving you more agency, but it generally undermines the story at large, and the game needs to balance these factors. It splits the focus, and makes very little seem important. Hypothetically this could be okay if the combat was exciting, but the combat feels more like a matter of making sure you have the right numbers when that bad guy rolls up to you. If it were open world with a strong linear progression that ties everything together tightly, that could work too, but Skyrim encourages dicking around. That the story is standard fantasy fare (Not cliched fantasy fare, mind you: It does its own things and tries to expand on the formula, but it is still standard fantasy at the core [Oooh, something it has in common with Modern Warfare 3{Might need to run for my life now}]) doesn't make it stand out too well either.

A common praise is that the world is terrifically detailed, with a rich and full history behind it. But personally, I don't really care about that history, because it feels too much like there was a great fantasy novel that got chopped to bits, and got sprinkled throughout the game. The setting doesn't feel integrated with the game.

Also, am I the only one who feels like getting better at a skill by useing it just encourages a sense of endless grind? Is anyone else plotting there treks through the woods based on what minor path changes will let you burn a rabbit to increase your destruction? Because I feel obligated to do that, in spite of it not being very fun.

And lastly, I am terrified of the prospect of taking out a stopwatch and figuring out how much time I spend fighting dragons, listening to plot points or generally doing stuff, versus holding down W like a pacifist, noob Pyro in TF2 taking an endless stroll through the mountains.

So overall, I'm going to keep playing Skyrim. It's not bad, and maybe what it wants to do will click with me, and ill start liking it. But I think that for my personal taste, the game needs either better combat, or a tighter, less meandering focus.

Of course, I should also thank Skyrim. I know its is a good game because people like it, but it doesn't resonate with me quite so well. But know I can have a slightly more objective understanding now of what makes for a good game system, less cluttered by my personal tastes. Its very much a learning experience.
 

Delsana

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The lack of any real guidance (not the same thing as being on rails) is something that has thrown off a lot of people from liking the game from my experience. Even I found the extremely extremely extremely slow start to be a serious issue. The long loading times does it no justice either.

The repetition, bugs, and issues, can't just constantly be excused because "it's Bethesda".

---

In any case, come join the Dark Side of the force and try out TOR this thanksgiving weekend.
 

MrBenSampson

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Genibus said:
MrBenSampson said:
Because repairing armor and weapons with a huge stack of blacksmithing hammers after a few fights is really what RPGS are all about?

Regenerating health is mainstream because this is a hardcore game. K.

Sprinting is so dumb because raising an arbitrary skill that should be a basic function of humanoids is more RPG like and adds to the overall gameplay by being able to run faster than a horse.

These all sound valid and worth considering.
I was thinking more along the lines of returning to town after a battle to have my equipment repaired, and my wounds bound. It helped me with the immersion. As for the athletics skill, it made sense for the player to become faster while he/she became more powerful.
 

scorptatious

The Resident Team ICO Fanboy
May 14, 2009
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Hmm. Not sure if I agree with all your points.

I found combat to be kind of fun in Skyrim. I especially like how the perk system works. The way it's designed makes it so that you can pretty much create whatever kind of playstyle you want.

I also like how much more diverse magic is than Oblivion as well. As someone who likes melee combat as well as offensive magic. It's great to see spells that compliment the former play style like the cloak and rune spells.

As for the lack of focus? Well, in a way, I guess it does seem kind of weird to put off a part of the main quest for extended periods of time while you go off to do something else. But it's a sandbox game, so I guess that's to be expected.

As for the main quest? I haven't finished it yet, but so far, it's certainly much better than Oblivion's main quest.

I guess if there's one thing I don't like about the game, it's the dumb companion a.i.

"Hey guys! I need help fighting this Ice Dragon! What's that? You're dealing with a slaughterfish? FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU..."
 

Wayneguard

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Skyrim: Yeah, it's good, but...




















level scaled loot... (and the lack of any unique enchanted items in dungeons) [sub]fuck you level scaling[/sub]
 

Sight Unseen

The North Remembers
Nov 18, 2009
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Delsana said:
The lack of any real guidance (not the same thing as being on rails) is something that has thrown off a lot of people from liking the game from my experience. Even I found the extremely extremely extremely slow start to be a serious issue. The long loading times does it no justice either.

The repetition, bugs, and issues, can't just constantly be excused because "it's Bethesda".
In my opinion, the bugs can be forgiven based on the fact that this game is HUGE, and there is no way that you could possibly make a game this big not have any bugs, or hire enough QA testers to see every possible bug in the game. Also, the bugs I've seen have been fairly minor, funny bugs that don't break anything in the game and don't diminish the experience. As long as the games bugs aren't game breaking, and Bethesda actively tries to remove them, I can't be mad at them for the game having bugs.

I agree with you that the common issues with the games should be worked on though and shouldn't be given a free pass "because it's Bethesda"
 

Exius Xavarus

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May 19, 2010
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My biggest, most irritating problem with Skyrim, is the lack of reward for actually exploring. "We're making it harder to fast-travel so you'll see the world!"

....Too bad it's utterly pointless to do anything BUT.

Sure the landscapes are pretty, but I want to play the game, not run around and look at the art for an hour while I try to find a bandit to kill. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to actually explore Skyrim. I LOVE underwater bits, and I was ecstatic to have a Necklace of Waterbreathing so I can go on all sorts of underwater ventures. It's too bad that literally the only thing I've found in all of Skyrim thus far is a pair of ships under the water right next to Ysgramor's Tomb. That is literally all I've found except a few treasure chests with like, 15 gold and a garnet. I once thought I found an underwater dungeon just south of the exit to Bleak Falls Barrow, but nope. It was simply an elaborate treasure chest display, which, again, only had like 15 gold, if that.

I am so upset that there is literally no reason for Waterbreathing. Argonians are most useless because, while the inherent waterbreathing is nice, there's no actual need to even have it. So I feel like the entire point of being an Argonian is totally null.

But back to the point, other than mapping a few dungeons and forts and caves and Daedric/Dragon Shrines, there is absolutely no point in exploring the outer regions. I explored that area north of Ysgramor's Tomb and there was absolutely NOTHING except two Horkers around. Which, needless to say, was a massive letdown. On top of the fact there was absolutely nothing under the water. Not. A. Damn. Thing. Bethesda may have a massive world for Skyrim, but it's so empty, to me. I don't have a reason to explore. I have no reason to do anything BUT fast-travel to anywhere i haven't already been.

Edit: My other, REALLY immersion-breaking gripe with Skyrim, is how everyone always has a poker face. Everyone. All the time. Whether they're sad, angry, happy, indifferent. No one in Skyrim has any real facial expressions at all. This was most bothersome when I met Sheogorath. He's awesome and reminds me of the Joker, which makes him even more awesome. But his poker face does not match his attitude in any possible way, and that really killed it for me.
 

targren

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King of the Sandbox said:
This is what I've been saying. I think most of the dissatisfaction comes from people who aren't used to using their own imagination, and expect to be led everywhere, straight through on rails, without, y'know ROLE-PLAYING.
I've done role-playing in just about every medium there is that has roleplaying (I've even LARPed once, gods forgive me), but I don't see the point in role-playing-with-yourself. That's just writing a story, and if you've got the imagination to do that in the confines of the game, then you've probably got it outside of Skyrim too. You've still got 10 days. Close down Skyrim, fire up Word/Writer/whatever, and nail off NaNoWriMo. Then you don't have to run around Beth's sloppy storytelling.
 

Soviet Heavy

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I sort of got lost after I completed the Fetch Quest for the Greybeards. After they let me FINALLY do a Fus Ro Dah! attack, I just dropped off. I didn't care about the Stormcloak versus Empire scuffle, and I just went wandering.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Jan 23, 2011
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lotr rocks 0 said:
Delsana said:
The lack of any real guidance (not the same thing as being on rails) is something that has thrown off a lot of people from liking the game from my experience. Even I found the extremely extremely extremely slow start to be a serious issue. The long loading times does it no justice either.

The repetition, bugs, and issues, can't just constantly be excused because "it's Bethesda".
In my opinion, the bugs can be forgiven based on the fact that this game is HUGE, and there is no way that you could possibly make a game this big not have any bugs, or hire enough QA testers to see every possible bug in the game. Also, the bugs I've seen have been fairly minor, funny bugs that don't break anything in the game and don't diminish the experience. As long as the games bugs aren't game breaking, and Bethesda actively tries to remove them, I can't be mad at them for the game having bugs.

I agree with you that the common issues with the games should be worked on though and shouldn't be given a free pass "because it's Bethesda"
Yeah, bugs are fine. But a game breaking bug that permanently lowers the FPS the longer you play? I can't just wave that off. Sad, really. This was my GOTY till I ran into that bug.
 

MultiElford

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Oct 22, 2011
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I guess I don't haven't played that many open-world games to compare it to. I missed big hits like Fallout 3, but did play Fallout: New Vegas as well as Morrowind and Oblivion.

If I compare it to Fallout: New Vegas I have to say that I got a totally different feeling from it, which is to be expected due to the extreme difference between the two worlds, but the gameplay is what I want to talk about.

I think that I am more motivated to play Skyrim. I play as a mage and I really feel like I am working towards being the most powerful wizard in all of Skyrim and I am sure I can achieve that in the end. I would have enjoyed being more focused on my profession technically (like I was forced to in Oblivion or Morrowind due to the class system) but I think I am actually more of a mage in Skyrim..
New Vegas makes me feel just like a normal guy that travels through the world and I don't think there is any real 'profession' I could aim to perfect even if I wanted to. Having 100 Science doesn't make me feel like a scientist for a example.

Nothing brings me out of the experience of being that mage in Skyrim, and that might actually be the problem. For the first time, I am not thinking about the game aspects. I am not thinking "This might have a positive impact on my stats" or "If I do this, I might get a cool weapon".
Skyrim is truly a role-playing game, and I never felt like I played a ROLE-playing game until I dived into this particular world.
On the other hand, Skyrim made me want even more freedom. I actually believe that I would actually enjoy an old-school tabletop experience (Dungeons&Dragons I mean) just as much, or even more... And I would never think about Skyrim again because it really delivers nothing other than this role-playing aspect since the game-aspects aren't anything new.

Really, I try acting just like myself in Skyrim most of the time, and the game allows that... When we are talking about exploring and questing...
I think the biggest problem I have with Skyrim is the dialogue. I want to say the stuff that I would say, or at least a Mass Effect type dialogue wheel. It is really creating a little identity crisis for my character... I am playing him as a neutral character that would always react relaxed and cool... But then I say stuff that doesn't fit him at all.
The other problem is that the game allows me to fast-travel... I force myself to use a carriage and pay the money if there is any available, and otherwise walk to my destination. I hate the option to fast-travel, it really hurts the overall role-playing experience.

In conclusion, I love Skyrim for the near 100% role-playing experience, but right when I step out of the game, I notice how I am not at all interested in the game-aspects... So why not play a real role-playing game like Dungeons and Dragons?
(Because I have no friends that are interested in joining me).

I forgot to mention Mass Effect which is a game that should make me feel much more content than I actually was at the time. Both the game-aspects and role-playing were superb and I always enjoyed Sci-Fi more than medieval fantasy. As much as I loved Mass Effect, there is still something that was missing. I don't know what and I am really interested to see whether this unknown factor will be existant in Mass Effect 3 (Since 2 made me feel much more comfortable than 1). Still ,I love Mass Effect much more than the Elder Scrolls, but I would like a first person perspective in a Mass Effect game. Maybe that's what holds me back from feeling perfectly in-tune with Mass Effect - the third person perspective.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

The Killjoy Detective returns!
Jan 23, 2011
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ExiusXavarus said:
I am so upset that there is literally no reason for Waterbreathing. Argonians are most useless because, while the inherent waterbreathing is nice, there's no actual need to even have it. So I feel like the entire point of being an Argonian is totally null.
Actually, their racial power Histskin is great as it serves to make you near invincible in combat once a day.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Zhukov said:
So, um... thoughts? Does anyone share this sentiment? Indifference? Maybe sees the thin focus as a positive?
This is Bethesda's formula. At the end of the day, it either works for you, or it doesn't. I find these sandbox worlds they create fascinating, I can lose myself in them completely. I know my imagination and suspension of disbelief is spackling in all the things the game itself can't or won't, but that doesn't hinder my enjoyment. There is certainly a laundry list of nits that could be very aggressively picked, but...for me...the whole is far, far greater than the sum of its parts.

It makes it hard to address criticism of a game like Skyrim, because we're left with "Huh...I guess this just isn't your kind of game", which isn't a very informative reply, and seems to imply that the individual doesn't like RPGS or something (and I know that you do). But that's really all we're left with. This is a particular kind of sandbox, filled with a particular kind of sand, and while one person might be making a sand castle and drooling in excitement, you're pawing through the sand in disappointment, thinking "Look at all this drab sand...is this all there is?". And that's unfortunate, because I feel like you're missing out on a pretty special game, but not everyone is going to experience everything the same way, and one person's GOTY is another person's box o' shit.
 

BloatedGuppy

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MultiElford said:
The other problem is that the game allows me to fast-travel... I force myself to use a carriage and pay the money if there is any available, and otherwise walk to my destination. I hate the option to fast-travel, it really hurts the overall role-playing experience.
I honestly can't even believe how much the decision to stop fast-traveling improved Bethesda games for me. First time I tried Oblivion I ended up fast traveling to where Brother Jauffre was (Oh, I can just click and go straight there? Alright then!), and then fast traveling again to the next spot, and then I said "Oh this is just rubbish" and tossed the game aside for several years. It seems crazy masochistic and I wince when suggesting it to people, but trudging around is how these games come alive. You develop a sense of place and scale and context that is utterly lacking otherwise.
 

MultiElford

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BloatedGuppy said:
MultiElford said:
The other problem is that the game allows me to fast-travel... I force myself to use a carriage and pay the money if there is any available, and otherwise walk to my destination. I hate the option to fast-travel, it really hurts the overall role-playing experience.
I honestly can't even believe how much the decision to stop fast-traveling improved Bethesda games for me. First time I tried Oblivion I ended up fast traveling to where Brother Jauffre was (Oh, I can just click and go straight there? Alright then!), and then fast traveling again to the next spot, and then I said "Oh this is just rubbish" and tossed the game aside for several years. It seems crazy masochistic and I wince when suggesting it to people, but trudging around is how these games come alive. You develop a sense of place and scale and context that is utterly lacking otherwise.
Exactly. I would understand it if the game was more like an MMORPG or a JRPG, but in a WRPG that is open world and relies on immersion, fast-travel just seems like a weird decision. Oblivion needed fast-travelling because there was no carriage-system like in Skyrim or Morrowind, but Skyrim should not have that feature.