Smile and Nod: RealID and Why Hate Speech is the Least of Our Worries
- Thread starter Russ Pitts
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Addendum: this is kinda like saying "why bother with this police thing? people will still commit crimes, police or not."Mantonio said:
Well yes, people still commit crimes. But try to imagine what would happen if societies didn't have a police force to punish people who engage in anti-social behavior in real life.
If you say "but instituting real names wouldn't punish trolls", indeed it wouldn't punish anyone directly. But as I said in the other post, is about peer-pressure, and people not liking to "dirty" their image by being jerks. Some people will still be jerks regardless, but many that would troll in anonymity would not do the same when his real name is attached to it.
Not sure about the last point, I don't think that was what Russ was saying exactly; but I think Jandau nails my reaction. I work in an office full of geeks like myself, but there are many things about my life that I wouldn't want put on display to all and sundry, and not because they're illegal or tawdry.Jandau said:
I've always held that who I am on the internet and who I am in "real life" are two completely seperate, sovereign entities. Thus, my identity on the internet and my identity in meatspace (I love that word) should have no connection. I simply use Catalyst as my name for everything that I do on the social part of the internet, so people that know me can identify me. Thus, I have two names, and the internet at large only needs to know one of them.
I'm also an aspiring "Nine-to-fiver", something that I'll be sinking a LOT of money and time into a university for, so I don't want to compromise that by letting my employer know how I spend my free time.
Also, as others have said before, there will always be hate speech. Some people just don't care. But we have methods for dealing with them, from banning them to simply ignoring them. The internet is like a giant government, it checks itself.
I'm also an aspiring "Nine-to-fiver", something that I'll be sinking a LOT of money and time into a university for, so I don't want to compromise that by letting my employer know how I spend my free time.
Also, as others have said before, there will always be hate speech. Some people just don't care. But we have methods for dealing with them, from banning them to simply ignoring them. The internet is like a giant government, it checks itself.
So.. are you hot?Usagi Vindaloo said:An interesting article, but I have to say I disagree with most of it.
For one thing, the big issue with RealID is not this. It's the fact that it will encourage MORE hate speech and horrible behaviour. At the moment, when I post, I'm Elfin McPallyface, prot paladin, and as such my opinions and thoughts on paladins, tanking, etc have merit. With RealID, I would be GIRL MCGIRLGIRL and any attempt at rational dialogue would be met with SHOW US YOUR TITS and R U HOT?
What about people with obviously foreign names? Is it right to make people like Luis Fernando or Hamid el Shaddir endure racist slurs and yells to GET OUT OF OUR COUNTRY YOU (insert insults here)?
Transexuals would also be on the chopping block for harassment if their account names were under their old "biological" names (or if they hadn't transitioned yet). Do you think trolls are going to leave someone who identifies as a woman but goes by the name of Steve alone?
Secondly, I find it interesting that you envision the emphasis on dividing real life and virtual life as trying to prevent the "failures" of real life tainting the perfect virtual world. In my opinion, the truth is vastly the opposite; it is that people are trying to prevent *virtual life* from flowing into their real life. As many great strides as we've made, geekdom is still seen negatively by a lot of mainstream people... and some of those mainstream people are in positions of power. I do NOT want a prospective employer to reject me solely based on the fact I play WoW and take the time to post my thoughts and feelings in the forums. As far as I'm concerned, my geek life is no one's business but my own, hence why I keep it out of my Facebook, LinkedIn, etc (or, at the very least, downplay it - I do have some reference to it as I am hoping to get into the video game industry, but I still keep it moderate and vague so as not to scare away other employers). With RealID linking our online geek identities with our real life names, we'd have to deal with a whole bunch of RL annoyance and possibly lost jobs and relationships. And yes, people who judge us based on our hobbies aren't really worth dealing with, but I imagine an unemployed person desperate for work would feel differently when an employer rejects him for a job because Google turned up his theorycraft for rogue DPS.
Also, PLEASE tell me I'm not the only one who noticed the irony of the writer decrying hate speech and general dickishness on the Internet, then writing the following:
"a company that's created an empire off the sweat and tears of a very active and vocal community of obsessives who crave the shadows of online anonymity *****the way fat girls crave cake.****"
Okay, it may not be hate speech, but it's still a pretty offensive stereotype and sounds uncomfortably like the sort of thing Russ hates. Please tell me this was a bit of intentional sarcasm?
Sorry, couldn't resist joining the stereotype for a second. Y'know.
You have many valid points. But I have to wonder what narrow-minded country you live in where employers judge you on whether or not you play video games in your free time or not. Maybe I'm being naive, but I really can't grasp it.
And you're not the only one that noticed the irony you described. And it annoyed me a bit. I'm not a girl, so why would it annoy me?
Either Russ Pitts, Editor-in-chief was hoping to prove some obscure point with this, or Russ Pitts Editor-in-chief was trying to be funny in his article, and kinda failed. Well in my opinion anyway. I hope it was the first option.
If not, Russ Pits screwed up, and pissed in his own pool.
RealID would have been an excellent idea. I mean, if it wasn't on the internet. The anonymity is a double-edged sword I'm afraid.
It protects the retards whilst they spew their bile, but it also protects those of us that just want to have a good time and relax after work in the world of video gaming from the people that can do a lot of damage with just your real name, and who don't care if what they subject you to harms you as long as it's funny.
Apathy, ladies and gentlemen. "As long as it doesn't concern/affect me, I won't be concerned with it." People don't give a crap if some bloke or girl half a world away gets harassed online, as long as it's not one of their friends, or loved ones.
The truth is that us "normal folk", as Russ Pitts so eloquently(snort) phrased it, need the general anonymity to protect us from the apathetic arseholes who are just looking for a good malicious laugh. Anonymity should stay optional. But common sense should be mandatory when dealing with the internet.
This is my 2 cents anyway. I'm not sure myself if I made any sense. It all sounded quite profound in my head.
Did anybody really think that RealID would make a difference? People are still dicks regardless of whether or not there name is up there.
Actiblizzard corporate fuckwads did. We all know how well old stuffy dudes in suits understand anything about anything, though.SL33TBL1ND said:
In short: Some high-level exec said "Hey that myface, bookspace, what's it called, that's pretty popular right? I keep hearing the kids talking about it*. We should be like that."
And, when it was pointed out how dumb of an idea that is, the person pointing it out was fired or transferred to the department that's used as a place to ice people until they can be fired. From that point forward it was all good words about The Plan, full speed ahead.
There is absolutely no reason, at all, whatsoever, that RealID couldn't work just like Steam's community -- you have a unique number and ID associated with that number, which may or may not be the same as the name you go by in each individual game, but it's still a unique identifier across all games. And if you cause trouble, it's tied to that unique ID.
Oh, except Actiblizz did say how easy it would make it to find people you know IRL to play games with them.
Really? Really Blizz? I'm that fucking socially awkward I can't talk to my friends and find out if they're playing Latest Game? Maybe I don't really want to play with Obnoxious Co-Worker! And now I've got Uppity Boss trying to pal up to me in WoW, trying to prove he's not an ass, but the problem is he plays an awful rogue and my guildmates informed him of such -- at length -- and now I'm going to catch hell for it tomorrow at work. All thanks to RealID.
Such a bad idea. Just.. just all around. A bad idea. Meh, Actiblizz jumped the shark. So long, company I once gave a shit about.
Whatever happened to just not feeding the troll? Trolls want attention, you don't pay attention to them, they will seek attention elsewhere.
Or even tighten up the banhammer, for crying out loud. If its as bad as everyone says it is, then its probably due to moderators allowing a bunch of brats run unchecked.
I mean, am I wrong in this? Isn't making everyone's names public like replacing the walls in your home with glass in response to a rat problem? Sure you can see the lil bastards scurrying around (just like your neighbors can see you eating TV dinners in your underware), but....now what? Still got rats there, bud.
Or even tighten up the banhammer, for crying out loud. If its as bad as everyone says it is, then its probably due to moderators allowing a bunch of brats run unchecked.
I mean, am I wrong in this? Isn't making everyone's names public like replacing the walls in your home with glass in response to a rat problem? Sure you can see the lil bastards scurrying around (just like your neighbors can see you eating TV dinners in your underware), but....now what? Still got rats there, bud.
I disagree, completely. And, at the risk of sounding REALLY nerdy I'm gonna quote a line from one of the Harry Potter movies: "Just because you have the emotional range of a teaspoon."Anacortian said:
I believe, whole-heartedly, that you can hate someone with the burning fires of the hell itself but still feel sorry for them for not having the a broad enough mind to realize the error and utter futility of their ways.
On another note: I've played WoW since the beta but I'm still more of a casual player. When I heard about the RealID thing I was a little bit upset, but this is only because I occasionally enjoy a good roleplaying experience online and I usually play female characters. Now, for anyone who doesn't know, this is a sort of difficult thing for men to do without being immediately ousted as gay. Ironically, in real life, I'm happily married to a wonderful woman who also plays WoW online and also loves to roleplay... online. She plays male characters and TELLS people she's actually female and nobody has a problem with it whatsoever. To sum up, this is my only reason for disliking the RealID thing but, in the end, it hardly matters because nobody roleplays anymore anyway. They just wanna rack up an epic gear score as fast as possible so they can kick perfectly viable tanks like me out of raids for only having a GS of 3800. X_X
Ok, heres a thought or two;
RealID only applies to their forums yeah? So what if your guild has its own private webpage and forums? Your real identity is still safe. Would RealID translate in to the game itself, would your female Night Elf Heal spec priest named LadyElf McHealer suddenly be changed to John Smith? Having your Global name as your real name would have the problem of "Just which of the 1 million John Smiths' are you?".
It seems it would only apply to Blizzard's Forums, and since most people avoid the forums anyway you have to ask yourself
"Does something like this really affect me?"
RealID only applies to their forums yeah? So what if your guild has its own private webpage and forums? Your real identity is still safe. Would RealID translate in to the game itself, would your female Night Elf Heal spec priest named LadyElf McHealer suddenly be changed to John Smith? Having your Global name as your real name would have the problem of "Just which of the 1 million John Smiths' are you?".
It seems it would only apply to Blizzard's Forums, and since most people avoid the forums anyway you have to ask yourself
"Does something like this really affect me?"
This, another thing I don't see brought up much is that there were going to be other changes on the forums to coincide with revealing peoples names. Publicly linking all of the characters on one account(no more flaming on a lvl 1 alt) and adding a rep system to posts. These two things on their own would have done a lot to help clean the forums up.Mantonio said:
Answer me this: How will Real ID stop trolls? Nobody ever supplies a good answer to this.
How will revealing their real names stop them? Trolls are going to troll whether you know their name or not.
I don't buy any reasons such as 'It will help people become more social!' either. How will it? If anything it makes me want to be less social, since I'm always less inclined to say what's on my mind if I don't have some kind of anonymity.
As the picture points out there's no real reason that forcing real names onto people would actually change anything and there are also a lot of holes in the system. What about someone named "John Smith", what does he have to about if his name is being put out there if he has one of the most common names in the country?
Personally when I started playing WoW I was a minor without a credit card and as such the billing name attached the my account was my mothers, that could mean different things to different people but to me, if I had to post under my parents name I wouldn't post at all. And I like being able to help out people with questions and constructively add the conversations so I don't think I'm the kind of forum goer you were want to drive off from the forums.
Well said Russ! We have a long way to go until people don't have to worry about being judged on what they do. I can respect those who want to remain anonymous because the real life people they deal with can be dillholes about such things, and I hope that such a thing does dwindle after time.
Am I weird or do I just not see his article as the personal attack everyone else seems to believe it is?
I'm sorry, but Russ Pitts has by in large, committed a fallacy with his article. the core notion here is that he believes the REASON behind people not wanting RealID is because we somehow want to protect our anon ways of life. (which, according to him, is nothing but a manifestation of our most sociopathic and selfish tendencies) But the truth is, it's not that simple. But rather, it's assymetrical submission of information.
That is, in order to play this game, I need to disclose exactly who I am, which, thanks to the vast amount of info that is out there in the cyberworld, makes tracking me down incredibly easy. This makes me, as an individual, vulnerable. I am not worried about people seeing my name and associating my name to my opinion. That much is fine. They are my opinions and if I'm willing to put it out there, I generally will stand by those opinions, real name or not.
But that is not my concern. My concern is for my safety against malicious intent. This is the same reason why my father, an immigrant to the US back in the 70s, chose to take his name out of the phone book. He came to the US perfectly legally, worked 2 jobs to pay his bills, and attend night school where he eventually earned 2 masters, an MBA, and became one of the most hardworking individuals I have ever seen. He would also eventually naturalize and become a legal citizen of US. And the man has not a single mean bone in his body. He, for all intensive purposes, has nothing to hide and would never be ashamed of who he is.
Ask him to expose his info to the world, however, and he would have pause. Why? Back in the 70s and 80s, anti-Asian-American sentiments were still very much in existence. And after Vincent Chin's murder in 1982 (which happened in Detroit, where my father was living at the time), and a series of threatening phone calls to my father and his family, my father decided that he no longer wanted to be easily found by the public. (or rather, by the disgruntled bigot who would seek to do him and his family harm simply because he was an immigrant.)
In effect, he wanted to become an anon in society, known to only those who he felt safe to do so.
Sure, it's not exactly the internet, but the principle here is the same.
That is, in order to play this game, I need to disclose exactly who I am, which, thanks to the vast amount of info that is out there in the cyberworld, makes tracking me down incredibly easy. This makes me, as an individual, vulnerable. I am not worried about people seeing my name and associating my name to my opinion. That much is fine. They are my opinions and if I'm willing to put it out there, I generally will stand by those opinions, real name or not.
But that is not my concern. My concern is for my safety against malicious intent. This is the same reason why my father, an immigrant to the US back in the 70s, chose to take his name out of the phone book. He came to the US perfectly legally, worked 2 jobs to pay his bills, and attend night school where he eventually earned 2 masters, an MBA, and became one of the most hardworking individuals I have ever seen. He would also eventually naturalize and become a legal citizen of US. And the man has not a single mean bone in his body. He, for all intensive purposes, has nothing to hide and would never be ashamed of who he is.
Ask him to expose his info to the world, however, and he would have pause. Why? Back in the 70s and 80s, anti-Asian-American sentiments were still very much in existence. And after Vincent Chin's murder in 1982 (which happened in Detroit, where my father was living at the time), and a series of threatening phone calls to my father and his family, my father decided that he no longer wanted to be easily found by the public. (or rather, by the disgruntled bigot who would seek to do him and his family harm simply because he was an immigrant.)
In effect, he wanted to become an anon in society, known to only those who he felt safe to do so.
Sure, it's not exactly the internet, but the principle here is the same.