I think it's too early to tell, but it was a bit questionable.
I consider the books and show to be wholly different entities, as such, I don't get my panties in a twist every time a change happens, and this is no exception. Was it rape? Pretty much. Why? Well, the way I looked it at was Jamie still having some sort of feelings for her, yet slowly realizing what an evil, stupid ***** she is. I took the whole "it isn't right..." thing to be a referring to their location in the the church, and right next to Joffrey. I can see why this would set people off, but all it got from me was a raised eyebrow. Yes, it wasn't right, but neither is incest, and that never stopped them. I'm going to wait to see where they go from here.
I haven't unfortunately seen this series yet, but that just isn't the case in the books, which is a shame. I think so far the changes in the show have been good, and made sense for compressing it to a television series (mostly) but that change....damn.
It'd a bad one. If Jamie had raped Cersei in the book then fine, put it in the show, but you're not just changing a scene there, but a damn lot of previous (and upcoming) character development on his part.
How do you feel about the changes made to Stannis' character, out of interest? They're pretty significant.
EDIT: For those interested, here's George R. R. Martin discussing the scene [http://grrm.livejournal.com/367116.html?thread=19030284#t19030284] on his blog.
I wish I could say, Silvanus, but like I said I haven't seen this most recent series yet, so the show's take on Prince Martell is also lost on me for now.
What I find really interesting here is that I don't care about the `rape` itself one way or another, since it and similar atrocities all over Westeros and this story. It's the change to Jamie's character and what that might mean for his future appearances.
I kind of liked it, this scene is pretty much the start of the new Jamie.
Standing up to his father, loosing his hand and everything with Brienne were all turning points, but this is moment he finally becomes his own man and free.
Up to this point he has been under the control of Cersei's vagina his entire life, this is moment when he finally just takes it and gets his control back.
In a way you could say Jamie's physical rape frees him of Cersei's life long psychological rape.
Also ... if you have an issue with fictional rape you are watching/reading the wrong show/books. In Westeros pretty much every solider is rapist, because they can get away with it as long as they are loyal to their lord and because that the way it was in real medieval times too.
And yeah, this weeks episode pissed me off quite a bit. Heres why.
Friendly reminder that Jaime actually raped Cersei
Friendly reminder that Thenns are cannibals and are SOOOO EVILLLLLL
Friendly reminder that Oberyn tells he'll kill Tywin to his face
Friendly reminder that every scene we got with Oberyn was in a brothel apart from the wedding
Friendly reminder that Tommen is just a younger Joffrey
Friendly reminder that Stannis burned people for not believing in R'hllor and not because they are traitors
Friendly reminder that Locke is going to the Wall and nobody gives a shit about him cutting Jaime's hand
Friendly reminder that Gilly is in Mole's Town
Friendly reminder that Hound said he's not a thief but then he stole silver 2 episodes later
Friendly reminder that Stannis is going to Braavos to beg money from the iron bank
Friendly reminder that Victarion is cut from the show
Friendly reminder that Loras has sex with every homosexual man in KL
Friendly reminder that showrunners hate Stannis so much that they don't invite his actor to the premieres
Friendly reminder that no Donal Noye, Strong Belwas or Garlan
Friendly reminder that Dany is the perfect messiah who can do no wrong
Like, what the fuck. I'm not one of those guys who rages every time they deviate from the books but it just seems like they're changing the wrong things and adding stuff to cater to the "so epick lol xd he totaly just threw a nife in a horses eye so kool mayb he will fuck Kaylee C" crowd.
So we have a dumb Oberyn, a rather mature Tommen and absolutely cringe worthy scenes with Dany and the Thenns all in one episode. Those will really make the show worse in the future if they haven't already.
This is on top of the first episode of the season actually fucking up the first chapter of the unreleased TWOW, which I thought was quite a marvelous achievement.
Yep. It seems that they are fanboys of certain characters and political views, so they trash and straw everyone they don't like.
StriderShinryu said:
He absolutely does rape her, and the scene made me quite uncomfortable to watch. That said, I don't think it necessarily means they made the change for shock value. Quite frankly, it's too early to call that. We already know they fairly significantly changed the timeline in which things happen, and they have made other changes from the books as well. Perhaps they are taking Jamie and Cersei in different directions from the books but that's not inherently wrong. The TV show and the books are two separate things and perhaps are going to end up telling different stories (or the same story but in a different way).
What bothered me is that Jaime's character development was pretty much ignored because the theme of the episode is everybody is horrible.
Like Sam said: "Rapist, rapist, rapist..."
I don't mind a different path if it has a good script.
hazabaza1 said:
I... doubt that. A lot of how things get referred to get changed a lot based on the perspective but generally things are stated true to how they happen. Cersie's state of mind and reactions afterwards also make it seem more consensual.
There's already a good few articles on the internet about this and I've got to agree that it's a shitty change (though I haven't seen the episode yet but I have read through that book). It removes a lot of the agency/power that Book Cersei has and changes Jamie from being 'desperate lonely lover' to 'creepy rape guy'.
Though they managed to salvage Danerys' relationship (even though it did seem kind of stockholm-ish until Drogo died) so we'll have to wait and see how this turns out.
Now that I think about it, not only Cersei. The producers victimized and removed agency/power from other women of the show, or made them morally better (if they are warriors, apparently murder works the character of women).
-Melisandre was choked by Stannis (another bullet against my favorite character. Fuck you, HBO)
-Dany's rapey wedding
-Catelyn tried to be good to Jon Snow
-Joffey killing prostitutes.
-Arya is less creepy and more heroic
-Asha/Yara cares for Theon a lot more (I actually liked this one a bit.)
-Brienne is less insecure.
I was incredibly annoyed and frustrated by this scene. I understand that things will get changed from the books to the television show, but who thought it was a great idea to turn Jaime into a rapist? He's done terrible things through the series so far (pushing Bran out the window etc), but this makes no sense for his character. He's established as being absolutely anti-rape! He was negatively affected by having to listen to the Mad King repeatedly rape his wife, he tells Brienne he would rather kill himself than be raped if he were in her position, and he lost his hand as a reward for saving her from being gang raped by their captors. Also, as fucked up as it is, he LOVES Cersei, all he wants is to be with her properly. The same scene in the book is portrayed as a passionate, desperate reunion - completely disturbing in its own way since it's right next to the corpse of their dead love child, but not rape. They completely undermined his character progression and long path towards redemption after all his wrongdoings for what? Shock value? To cause controversy so more people will go and watch? That's the only reason I can think of really. It's also pretty disturbing that the director felt they'd shot a perfectly consensual scene -.-
This is on top of the first episode of the season actually fucking up the first chapter of the unreleased TWOW, which I thought was quite a marvelous achievement.
I think the show is going to diverge a little from the books, but please enlighten me on how this 'belittles rape'.
Lil_Rimmy said:
Did Jamie suddenly not care about his dead kid, or have about 10 seconds to run upstairs? I mean, there must of been a smell or something, not to mention them doing it on a tomb floor or something.
Somehow I don't think Jaime cared that much about Joffrey ever. We see Joffrey multiple times being an asshole to Jaime without knowing he's his father, and Jaime seems more like the kind of person who takes care of his own wants and needs and doesn't care about the consequences. Maybe it's just that they were alone and not likely to be intruded upon for once.
Jaime didn't give two shits about Joffrey, I'm paraphrasing from the book here but it was something to the effect of; "To his eye, he (Joffrey) was simply seed squirted into
Cersei" so yeah, he didn't care. That plus he wasn't blind to Joffrey's cruelties and was disgusted by his sadism. Also the scene in the book is contextually very different. Joffrey had died while Jaime was still making his way back to Kings Landing, Cersei was completely unraveling and had been in mourning for days when suddenly her long lost brother-lover (euck) appears before her. They start making out and Cersei resists for like half a seconds before letting go with a super creepy torrent of totally-into-this-incest dialogue. It isn't ambiguous, not at all. Just like the show isn't ambiguous at all. They filmed a rape scene, I don't personally like the show's tendency to just change scene from the book into graphic rapes (Dany's wedding night is a good example), but they can do what they want because it's still one of the best shows around. I do think show-Jaime's character arc is fucked now though. Jaime was always a bastard, but a likable one, even when he was throwing kids out of windows and stabbing Starks. That likability is spoiled (at least in my mind, I know there are plenty of Ramsay fans out there) when he goes and does something so cruel.
On a slightly different note, I thought it was a weird addition mainly because the catalyst for Jaime's aloof and disdainful cynicism were the years he spent serving as a kings guard to Aerys, who he witnessed commit all sorts of atrocities, including the repeated rape of the queen. He is specifically disgusted by sexual violence and has stated that he'd die before he let that happen to him. Even the beginning of his "path to redemption" began when he realized he couldn't let Brienne be brutalized by Lorch's men. I don't know, it seemed like he had pretty strong convictions concerning sexual assault.
I feel much more disappointment with Strong Belwas and Victarion not making a showing than with the scene between Cersei & Jaime. At least that seemed to sorta serve a purpose other than: "We're afraid to add too many new characters."
Being afraid to do what the source material does and watering it down for that purpose is how these kinds of series fail. Don't... do ... it
No one shouts louder about show/book deviations than me, but I humbly disagree with your assertions here about Jaime's character. There's a few things to consider.
1. It's established VERY early on in the books that Cersei and Jaime play this "No no no you mustn't" game almost every time they have sex, and Jaime just does what he wants anyway.
2. Jaime's relationship with Cersei turns absolutely toxic as we move through AFFC/ADWD. The timing isn't exactly the same due to the fact the show keeps bunging up timelines, but it doesn't take long after Jaime's return to the city for things to go sour between them. By the end of AFFC Jaime is quite happy to let Cersei rot in prison/possibly die rather than heading back to save her. His love has soured and turned to hate. This is evidently the show's attempt to accelerate what is a drawn out mental process in the books and make it visual.
I do agree that it is unfortunate that the result is a decidedly "rapey" scene, as it's going to make it next to impossible for a lot of people to empathize with a complex character. Assuming they hadn't already reached that point when he hurled a small child to his presumed death in episode 1.
If you want to get up in arms about character assassination, get mad about Stannis. I have no idea WTF they're doing with him.
No one shouts louder about show/book deviations than me, but I humbly disagree with your assertions here about Jaime's character. There's a few things to consider.
1. It's established VERY early on in the books that Cersei and Jaime play this "No no no you mustn't" game almost every time they have sex, and Jaime just does what he wants anyway.
2. Jaime's relationship with Cersei turns absolutely toxic as we move through AFFC/ADWD. The timing isn't exactly the same due to the fact the show keeps bunging up timelines, but it doesn't take long after Jaime's return to the city for things to go sour between them. By the end of AFFC Jaime is quite happy to let Cersei rot in prison/possibly die rather than heading back to save her. His love has soured and turned to hate. This is evidently the show's attempt to accelerate what is a drawn out mental process in the books and make it visual.
I do agree that it is unfortunate that the result is a decidedly "rapey" scene, as it's going to make it next to impossible for a lot of people to empathize with a complex character. Assuming they hadn't already reached that point when he hurled a small child to his presumed death in episode 1.
Jaime, both in books and show, never gave the slightest impression he'd actively hurt his sister, even once he'd well and truly stopped loving her. Abandon her to the consequences of her own actions, sure, but not go out of his way to harm her.
Like I said, I don't think they were aiming for rapey when they wrote the scene. Although if that's the case then don't ask me how nobody noticed that that's what it looked like. On the other hand, if they were going for a rape scene to accelerate Jaime's change of heart, then that still makes no sense to me. "Gosh, I've just had an epiphany as to the decidedly flawed nature of my sister/incestuous lover. Wellp, guess I better get rapin' then!"
As for the attempted killing of Bran, I often found that at odds with the Jaime we are presented with later on when he starts getting his own chapters. The guy who casually and callously threw a kid out of a tower is suddenly feeling guilty over threatening to put a kid in a catapult.
If you want to get up in arms about character assassination, get mad about Stannis. I have no idea WTF they're doing with him.
People keep saying I should judge the show as its own entity that need not slavishly follow the book and I agree... in theory. However, whenever they do change something it seems that it's inevitably for the worse.
It's quite possible they were going for the first half of the scene in the book, and didn't realize that stripped of context and culmination it came off super rapey. That would indicate a certain stunning incompetence on the part of the entire production staff though.
Zhukov said:
People keep saying I should judge the show as its own entity that need not slavishly follow the book and I agree... in theory. However, whenever they do change something it seems that it's inevitably for the worse.
Yeah, well. Those people are stupid. I appreciate that there are certain realities to making a show like this...characters and sub plots will be lost, historical depth will be glossed over...it's the little changes for absolutely no reason that piss me off. Hoat > Locke. Jeyne > Talissa. No Renly's Peach. Shae's rewrite is confusing as fuck and has half the unsullied viewers convinced she's just an inconsistent character. And on and on and on. Stop changing things just to change them you idiots!
Unlike you, I've only read the books the once, so I dare say many details have slipped my memory.
BloatedGuppy said:
Zhukov said:
People keep saying I should judge the show as its own entity that need not slavishly follow the book and I agree... in theory. However, whenever they do change something it seems that it's inevitably for the worse.
Yeah, well. Those people are stupid. I appreciate that there are certain realities to making a show like this...characters and sub plots will be lost, historical depth will be glossed over...it's the little changes for absolutely no reason that piss me off. Hoat > Locke. Jeyne > Talissa. No Renly's Peach. Shae's rewrite is confusing as fuck and has half the unsullied viewers convinced she's just an inconsistent character. And on and on and on. Stop changing things just to change them you idiots!
The way they've handled her makes me wonder how the hell it's going to work when The Thing happens.
Speaking of changes, was Loras and Renly being gay lovers something that was implied in the books and went completely over my head or was that a changed-for-TV thing as well?
(EDIT: I just had to look up who Jeyne and Talissa are. Clearly my memory is going in my old age.)
Speaking of changes, was Loras and Renly being gay lovers something that was implied in the books and went completely over my head or was that a changed-for-TV thing as well?
Honestly I have no fucking idea. It worries me. The show has invested heavily in white washing Tyrion from the start, as he's their "leading man" now, so I'm concerned they don't WANT him to throttle Shae. Some possibilities...
1. They keep it as in the books, but Shae is more demonstrably Tywin's agent from the get go, thus making her an active schemer/betrayer and not just the bratty social climber she was in the books.
2. Tywin kills Shae and Tyrion kills Tywin in revenge (ugh).
3. Shae really did ship off on a boat, and becomes the object of Tyrion's obsession/affection (where do whores go?) instead of Tysha. Double Ugh.
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