So, about that piracy... AKA Woman forced to pay $1.5 million for pirating music

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
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Sven und EIN HUND said:
A woman has been ordered to pay $1.5 million US to recording companies for pirating 24 songs on 'KaZaA', a peer-to-peer file sharing network that, I'd assume, is not unlike the late Limewire. The full article is here, so I won't bother going into the details: http://news.ninemsn.com.au/entertainment/8119083/woman-to-pay-us1-5m-for-online-piracy

Personally I think that's goddamn absurd. Apparently this comes after a few similar offenses from the same woman, but $1.5 million?? Is piracy a crime? Yes. Have they gone too far? In my opinion: Yes. What do you think?

Well, there is no question as to whether piracy is a crime or not, it is. When it comes to punishments, you need to make them a deterrant when people are caught and convicted, if the penelties are irrelevent it deters noone, and it becomes impractical to prosecute.

Understand that this is speaking about piracy itself, the legal system so far is not considering other matters like the behavior of the industries themselves. So far I do not think that either the music or gaming industries would fare well if the goverment was to investigate them on similar grounds to why it's been involved with gas companies over the years. Organizations like the RIAA which seem to assist with price fixing and other types of behavior throughout the music industry could be called criminal as well. Sadly though such things have yet to be officially acknowleged.

What makes this case ridiculous is that they are going after monetary settlements this way. They can get settlements for millions of dollars all they want, but they are meaningless if the person in question doesn't have that much money. In the end the court is liable to just make it so they need to "make an effort to pay" based on whatever they earn. I'd be surprised if in this ruling they see returns equivilent to the thousands they settled for in other cases.

If they want this to have meaning they actually have to start getting criminal charges pressed and jail time.

-

I'll also say that a lot of details on this case seem to be missing, unlike other groups that settled she seemed to fight, and that leads me to believe it was done under the advice of a lawyer. We don't know what her defense was.

When it comes to the music industry in paticular, I have mixed opinions since a lot of what they call "piracy" especially when dealing with older music is a joke. People who already bought songs, and berfore there were limitations put on them (since noone had conceived of current technology) seem to be being lumped in with pirates when they choose to download them or otherwise upgrade the format.

Trying to get people to pay for the same material again and again in each seperate format doesn't seem right to me, especially if you purchused the material back in the days of Vinyl or 8 tracks or whatever.

See, a lot of the older guys who come out and do the whole "anti-piracy" and "we deserve to be paid" messages strike me as being ridiculous, the bottom line in many cases is that they are complaining that they didn't make very good business deals back when they were popular. Either that or they partied/snorted/shot up all their profits and are now broke. As much as I like some of the guys who make the complaints, I also can't feel sympathy for them in these cases where their objective seems to be to try and make a fortune off of things they already sold.

While getting somewhat off topic, for people who wonder about how current performers are treated (more disposable) it's in part connected to the fact that in the old days rock stars and the like were relatively easy to cheat, and there was no real reason not to hold onto the contracts when things weren't working out. Today the entertainers are more savvy and maintain their own organizations and advisors even if they are dumb, they get better contracts and a bigger share of the profits, making them far less profitable, especially when they are going through rough times and not raking in the dough. It all factors into arguements about why the industry doesn't stick with their talent through the downs as well as the ups, or cultivate them over the long term quite as much.

You can feel sorry for a group like say "Grand Funk Railroad" for example, but if you bought their records do you really think they should have the right to sue you because you download a song you paid for onto your MP3 player? I don't know if they are involved in this (I mention them as a famous case of a band being screwed), but the bottom line is that when a band doesn't make money off of some of their work, how is that YOUR fault if their contracts or the terms they sold to you at the time weren't the best for them.

Just some rambling thoughts on the subject.
 

Crazy_Bird

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Oct 21, 2009
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ZombieGenesis said:
If the recording companies are suing here for damages, she shouln't be liable for anything more than she's stolen. Speaking as a lawyer, that ain't right...
Still, this day and age people should know better.
The argument is that she redistributed the stolen songs because of the peer to peer system of Kaza so the damage actually caused is supposed to be higher than the value of just 24 songs. Who knows how many other people downloaded the songs at the time and profited from the woman's traffic?

Yet these calculations and claims are often distant from reality and very bizarre.
 

Folio

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Jun 11, 2010
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It's legal if you already have bought a CD of the songs.

But KaZaa is old. It's SO 90's. Couldn't they just act sooner on it? It's like the saying: 'Don't bring old cows out of the pond.' (I know it sounds weird, it's a Dutch saying)

It's almost as if someone needed money and just said: "Hey, you downloaded a truckload of music, lets rob you of your money!"
 

Tharwen

Ep. VI: Return of the turret
May 7, 2009
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Has inflation really happened that fast?

No? Well it seems that someone's feeling particularly sadistic in the recording industry today. At least it set an example...
 

Stackle

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Dec 17, 2009
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"Honey, that mix CD I made for your birthday, with all those new songs....I'm gonna have to get that back from you," says mother to her child.
 

Zer_

Rocket Scientist
Feb 7, 2008
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This is retarded. I could steal a tank, and ram it into an RIAA building, and I'll be fined less. This is ridiculous.
 

Aeriath

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Sep 10, 2009
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BonsaiK said:
Sven und EIN HUND said:
A woman has been ordered to pay $1.5 million US to recording companies for pirating 24 songs on 'KaZaA', a peer-to-peer file sharing network that, I'd assume, is not unlike the late Limewire. The full article is here, so I won't bother going into the details: http://news.ninemsn.com.au/entertainment/8119083/woman-to-pay-us1-5m-for-online-piracy

Personally I think that's goddamn absurd. Apparently this comes after a few similar offenses from the same woman, but $1.5 million?? Is piracy a crime? Yes. Have they gone too far? In my opinion: Yes. What do you think?
She didn't want to play ball and settle out of court, so they're showing her who's boss, because why the hell not. Who is she to get arrogant and on her high horse when she's a thief? Steal a $50 handbag from a store and get caught, is your fine $50? Hell no, it's a fucking lot more isn't it, and the reason why is to teach you a lesson that stealing is something that you should not do.
I think a $24,000 fine would have sufficed for that. She's a single mum of 4, and I doubt she has a high paying job. That fine would make it hard for her and her kids, but it's a realistic fine. I doubt she'd even get 1/6 of the $1.5 million paid off in her lifetime.
 

Dana22

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Sep 10, 2008
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Go to McDonald, burn with hot coffee, sue McDonalds, pay 1,5mil for pirating music and keep the rest.
Only in USA.

Yes, this forcing someone to pay 1,5mil for 24 songs is stupid.
 

Arcane Azmadi

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Jan 23, 2009
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They're making an example of her. Of COURSE it's unreasonable to fine her that much for such a small misstep, they're making a loud statement to be heard by everyone: "stop pirating or we will FUCK UP YOUR LIFE AND THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO STOP US!"
 

RhombusHatesYou

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Mar 21, 2010
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Between There and There.
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The Wide, Brown One.
BonsaiK said:
She didn't want to play ball and settle out of court, so they're showing her who's boss, because why the hell not. Who is she to get arrogant and on her high horse when she's a thief? Steal a $50 handbag from a store and get caught, is your fine $50? Hell no, it's a fucking lot more isn't it, and the reason why is to teach you a lesson that stealing is something that you should not do.
Thing is, this is damages not fines because in the US copyright infringement is civil law only so they can't hit you with actual fines. Punitive damages can be... extreme.

Unlike here in sunny Oz where we have both criminal and civil laws covering copyright infringement... so if they're feeling particularly nasty about it, the government can take their pound of flesh before the industry lawyers get a chance... which is probably why they still prefer to go civil law rather than criminal here. If the govt hits you for... wossit now? $10,000 and up to 6 months in the hokey per offence (that's what it was last time I bothered to pay attention, anyway - think it's higher now) the recording industry get dick - how they gonna sue someone who's already been fined into oblivion and locked up for 20 years?

Thankfully just about everyone ignores the criminal law side of it here. It was aimed at people turning a profit from unauthorised distribution rather than personal use - big difference legally.
 

Aerodyamic

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Aug 14, 2009
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Hell, I have a good job, and I've been working in this career field for 11 years, and I haven't made a million dollars over that span. I'm going to have to agree with a number of others; this is just going to create a backlash.
 

SinisterGehe

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May 19, 2009
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Keepitclean said:
SinisterGehe said:
She will wont ever be able to pay that...
I know pirating is wrong and can be considered immoral, but so is abusing law like that...
Both are evil in this instance, but 1,5million? That f'king absurd!!!
What these record companies are doing is more immoral than the piracy itself. Fucking ridiculous. Being a single mother of four I wouldn't be surprised if she pirated the music because she couldn't afford to buy it.
I completely agree on what they are doing is wrong, but this gets in to the case of comparing 2 evils together and seeing which is worse. But at the end of they day both were immoral it comes down to who was worse.

If you understand what I mean here.
 
Aug 26, 2008
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Well I hope all the pirates have learnt their lesson! I know I certainly have. From now on I will only steal physical objects, rob banks and mug people! My crimes will pale in comparison to the high treason that is DOWNLOADING STUFF!

This is the worst kind of mental. To think this kind of punishment has been approved by a court of law is absolutely fucking terrifying.
 

Aesthetical Quietus

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Mar 4, 2009
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SenseOfTumour said:
Again, the legal system tells us, stop pirating and start shoplifting.
Worst case, you get caught and get a warning and a small fine.
Best case, you get free music and movies!

If however you don't steal the cds and dvds, but just go online and take a copy of the data, then you're looking at a potentially life destroying fine, that most people could never hope to pay.

LEGAL NOTE: Not actually condoning theft IRL, but damn, it's a lot less serious in terms of the penalties it seems. I'm sure people have permanently crippled other people for life and ended up paying less than $1.5 million in damages.

But then, as ever, what's human life when it comes up against the mighty dollar?
This, I can't understand there rational. I can partly see where they are coming from since by downloading she was helping others also steal, but at almost no cost to the publishers. A theft of tangible items costs them an effload. Silly people.
 

BonsaiK

Music Industry Corporate Whore
Nov 14, 2007
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various folks said:
BonsaiK said:
She didn't want to play ball and settle out of court, so they're showing her who's boss, because why the hell not. Who is she to get arrogant and on her high horse when she's a thief? Steal a $50 handbag from a store and get caught, is your fine $50? Hell no, it's a fucking lot more isn't it, and the reason why is to teach you a lesson that stealing is something that you should not do.
various good points
Look, you're all probably right. I just like seeing people getting inordinately punished for piracy. It's probably that side of me that enjoys a good public hanging. Also, I think about the difficulty me and my friends have had over the past decade just trying to pay bills and so forth because nobody buys shit anymore... it's so much harder to make a living in music that it once was. Some of the promo CDs that I get sent at work have disclaimers on them basically begging people not to fileshare the stuff. The other day a new album from a band I love came out and there was all this shit written all over the promo disc saying "we're going to have to stop making music if you guys keep ripping our shit" and it broke my heart. I care a lot more about them than some stupid woman who really should have played ball when she was busted with her hand in the cookie jar.
 

lazy_eight

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Oct 29, 2010
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What I want to know is: how does the RIAA know who is downloading songs illegally? The article mentions that they have sued 35 000 individuals. How and why them, out of all the people who pirate music? Are they monitoring people's internet connections randomly? Do they watch services like Kazaa and collect the IP addresses of those connecting to it? I'm not American, so some ignorance may be showing on my part, but in my province you need a court order before the ISP will give you the name to which an IP is registered.

I can see that an example is being made of this woman. The fact that these studios & industry associations are willing to ruin people's lives over a pittance means that they feel threatened. Yes, copying & distributing files is easier now than it has ever been. Instead of finding & punishing people who fall afoul of laws that have not kept pace with this technology, why can't they find ways to use it to their advantage?
 

zombiesinc

One day, we'll wake the zombies
Mar 29, 2010
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Wow, extensive... wonder how in the hell she'll manage to pay that?
 

Pengowen

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Nov 12, 2008
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The concept of stealing goes: If your willing to steal a penny, your willing to steal anything.
I work in retail and have seen..SEEN WITH MY OWN EYES some amazing thefts take place, and have thwarted as many as possible without putting myself or others in danger.
It's hard enough to do in person let alone on the effing internet! so when they finally catch someone, what are they gonna do? Make as large a deal as possible and rip the heck out of you!

It's not a fair punishment at all, but these big companies don't care. They see it as a chance to sink their teeth into one of the millions of thiefs chipping at their cash cows.