Not to mention this is Comic Book Logic, which means that death is as serious as a mild cold for most people. The fact that anyone has been killed means nothing. They can always come back later. So yeah, I wouldn't really worry much about things like "They can't do *Insert Plot Idea* because *Insert Character* is already dead" That's never been a problem for comics in the past, and I doubt it will be an issue in the movie universe either.bastardofmelbourne said:
So, apparently WW is pretty good.
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Given the super hearing and super senses of most of the DC heroes, that's actually not that big of a handicap. They could just close their eyes, and likely still know exactly where she is, and just beat her senselessundeadsuitor said:
I felt like the scenes were out of sequence when...
Steve is telling the others about how she's looking to fight Ares because she's an Amazon who was made from clay and stopping him will stop all war, only for chief and the others to go 'Well, that just sounds crazy.'
This scene should have happened BEFORE Veld. As it was, they had just watched her break a trenchwar deadlock by walking at it while deflecting bullets. Her feats included leaping over buildings and throwing an APC across the town square. An APC which took 3 of them to carry the steel door which she ripped off single handedly.
But her talking about the greek gods is crazy at that point? I imagine they'd believe almost anything in that post-battle high.
This scene should have happened BEFORE Veld. As it was, they had just watched her break a trenchwar deadlock by walking at it while deflecting bullets. Her feats included leaping over buildings and throwing an APC across the town square. An APC which took 3 of them to carry the steel door which she ripped off single handedly.
But her talking about the greek gods is crazy at that point? I imagine they'd believe almost anything in that post-battle high.
I wouldn't even say urban fantasy, just go straight Greek Epic like Clash of the Titans or Jason and the Argonauts with Wonder Woman fighting off mythical threats and deal with the last vestiges of the old world. It's an excuse to have a juxtaposition of the modern world against the ancient world and maybe have Diana go to exotic locations. You could even use it to introduce concepts that could be central to Shazam, Black Adam, and even Justice League Dark.bastardofmelbourne said:
I think you forget that one of that group said exactly what he said. "Based on what we just saw her do, maybe it's not bullshit."Elijin said:
Besides, the truly skeptical don't just make assumptions. Just because she shows an unusually high level of strength, doesn't mean she's a literal god, or that gods are real. I mean,
Dr. Poison made up a gas that gave a regular human super strength and endurance, we see him sniff that stuff a lot in the movie. For all they know, she's something like that. Some kind of super soldier program, who is also just a bit crazy obsessed with Greek Mythology. Because nothing that she did was completely outside the realm of human ability. At that point anyway. She wasn't shooting lightning bolts out of her hands (yet), she wasn't flying through the air, or anything completely impossible to normal humans. She was essentially an uber-human, in her capabilities. So while they would be more than happy to acknowledge that she was incredibly powerful, that doesn't automatically lead to the conclusion of "Plus she's a Greek God, and God Killer herself." That's a lot of unverified baggage tagged onto the end of what she did, that isn't necessarily justified by the evidence.
WelllHappyninja42 said:
I'm not saying they'd accept she was a god, which doesn't matter as that wasnt on the table at the time. Im saying they'd accept she was an Amazon, creature of myth. And accept she believed what she said, even if the god part wasn't something they could get behind. Like steve, I guess.
Also worth noting that the super soldier pills weren't in play, so doesnt lend credibility one way or another (and were a result of a god tampering with mankind)
Also worth noting that the super soldier pills weren't in play, so doesnt lend credibility one way or another (and were a result of a god tampering with mankind)
I really respect the depiction of war though. Made me think of how in cap A first avenger everything was upbeat, they always seemed to have the upper hand and it just seemed too....pleasant.
Edit: my phone was having no part of spoiler tags sorry about that.
bastardofmelbourne said:
I've enjoyed David Thewlis since seeing him in the nihilistic little British film "Naked" many, many years ago. Seeing an actor best known for playing a nebbishy little twerp stomping around as the literal God of Wars was so flagrantly absurd it was all I could do to keep from laughing out loud.
Elijin said:
I'm not sure they ever accepted she was "a creature of myth". She said she lived on an island, and they call themselves the Amazons. Considering there is the Amazon jungle, and you could technically call the people who live there Amazons, it's not that far of a stretch. They never react in any way like they believe she is somehow mythical. Their reaction seemed more to me like your typical "ok, she's a weird foreigner lady, but whatever, I don't really care." I mean, I knew a guy who thought he could communicate with angels, and while I humored him when he spoke, it doesn't mean I believed him. And if that same guy, suddenly started jumping 30 feet through the air, tossing tanks, and blocking bullets, while I would be shocked as fuck by his abilities, it wouldn't make me think he was actually talking to angels. The two things aren't connected. And accepting that she believes what she said also isn't that big a stretch. Again, my angel talking companion truly believed it, and I didn't question his belief, that doesn't mean I believed him though.
The only one of them that was actually buying her story (at least partially), was Steve. Because he had seen far more things that were unexplainable than they had. The stuff with the mist shield over the island, feeling the lasso of truth forcibly punishing him if he tried to lie, etc. The others, just saw a gorgeous woman, who acts a bit weird, do some physically incredible things.
Now, if they still were skeptical after seeing her float in the air, battling a guy who summoned metal to his body, and shoot lightning from her hands....well they'd still be acting appropriately, because it could just be someone like Superman, who is just simply an alien, and not a god. Sadly those lines get so easily blurred in DC, that "sufficiently advance technology viewed as magic" is par for the course for the setting.
The only one of them that was actually buying her story (at least partially), was Steve. Because he had seen far more things that were unexplainable than they had. The stuff with the mist shield over the island, feeling the lasso of truth forcibly punishing him if he tried to lie, etc. The others, just saw a gorgeous woman, who acts a bit weird, do some physically incredible things.
Now, if they still were skeptical after seeing her float in the air, battling a guy who summoned metal to his body, and shoot lightning from her hands....well they'd still be acting appropriately, because it could just be someone like Superman, who is just simply an alien, and not a god.
Sadly those lines get so easily blurred in DC, that "sufficiently advance technology viewed as magic" is par for the course for the setting.
This was the safest and most derivative Post-Dark Knight DC movie. I didn't hate it. I just got a feeling that there was a smarter and edgier draft of this movie that they didn't film. At least, the other movies had something interesting. This one had nothing challenging about it like Man of Steel or interesting characters like Suicide Squad. Here's hoping that Justice League would provide something interesting later this year.
I never read that comic but now I really want to.undeadsuitor said:
Super-senses is actually one of the few powers Wonder Woman has never been depicted having, to my knowledge.They're iffy on whether she can fly, whether she's bulletproof, whether she can actually do magic, but she's never seen doing the super-hearing thing that Superman can do. Along with heat/x-ray vision, that's been one of Superman's proprietary schticks.Happyninja42 said:Given the super hearing and super senses of most of the DC heroes, that's actually not that big of a handicap. They could just close their eyes, and likely still know exactly where she is, and just beat her senseless
I'd still be impressed if I saw Wonder Woman beat up a guy with her eyes closed. Oddly, I'd be more impressed than if I saw Batman do it, because I just kind of assume that fighting blind is one of those things Batman can do, along with judo and DDR. [http://pre08.deviantart.net/456f/th/pre/i/2010/244/1/4/batman_ddr_by_itswalky-d2xtnrr.jpg]
BloatedGuppy said:
Nup. Nope. Not seeing it.
Worst casting choice in the entire DCEU, if you ask me.
Wonder Woman actually makes the first Captain America film look almost...insensitive, in retrospect. Like, Captain America is fighting in WW2, but there's no sign of the extermination camps or roving death squads. No Jewish refugees, half-starved and looking for lost family. No trenches filled with bodies. No comfort women. It's like he's fighting some sanitised, parallel war. He's not even fighting real Nazis; he's fighting some weird Nazi octopus science cult.Elijin said:
Whereas Wonder Woman, she comes off as even more innocent and naive than Captain America ever was, but as soon as they arrive in France she's walking past all the human shrapnel left in the wake of a world war, and Steve Trevor almost has to grab her and haul her along saying we can't help them right now, and that's the most heartbreaking part of it. This is a literal demigod, a lady who can bench-press a tank, and she's looking at a guy with no legs and processing the fact that there is just nothing she can do.
That's what I think Snyder was trying to do with Superman, but he never quite pulled it off. The elements were there, but the tone and the context were all over the place. In Man of Steel, Superman goes from having obliterated half the city and killed the last surviving member of his race to quipping alongside a general and going to work at the Daily Planet. Even in BvS, it's like he never seems to care about the collateral damage. The closest he gets is feeling a little mopey over a bomb going off in his face, which was 100% not his fault. Batman is driven to the point of madness by the loss of life in Metropolis, but all Superman can do is go "we gotta save my mother, Bruce!"
Why, Superman? Why do you only seem to care about Lois and your mother? He never visits the graves of the tens of thousands of people who died while he was fighting Zod. He never seems to acknowledge the moral quandary that maybe if he bursts over to Africa and maims a militia warlord, then later a rival militia will come in and slaughter all the people in the camps that warlord was protecting. He never looks at a person dying of cancer and says "Wow. I can't cure that with punches."
There's some legitimately interesting moral questions implied by the existence of superheroes that the Marvel films never really address. I feel like the DC films have always been trying to address those questions, particularly in BvS. We've got a Superman who receives as much criticism as he does praise whenever he intervenes to save someone from something. We've got a Batman who has been emotionally eviscerated by two decades of crimefighting that left him with nothing but dead friends and scars. But BvS just never connected the fucking dots, it was as if they wanted us to fill in the blanks there and go "yeah, Superman's totes morally conflicted." And then they start fighting, because Batman hates Superman, I guess, but then they team up because Batman doesn't hate Superman anymore and ultimately it's all Lex Luthor's fault; they just go an arrest him and beat up a giant monster and all is well.
Like, Captain America bugs me in retrospect because it's morally sanitised. BvS bugs me in retrospect because it's dark and gritty but never explains why it's dark and gritty; it's just a bunch of grumpy people punching each other. Wonder Woman finally gets the balance right; it shows you a cynical and depressing look at the nature of human evil and the impotence of any individual to really stop it, but it does so through the lens of a hero who really wants to help people. It's cheesy sometimes, but it's cheesy for a reason. That lady who innocently assumes that men fight wars because of an evil god because they can't be doing this of their own free will - her innocence is necessary in order to highlight just how callous something like industrialised warfare can be.
Why, Superman? Why do you only seem to care about Lois and your mother? He never visits the graves of the tens of thousands of people who died while he was fighting Zod. He never seems to acknowledge the moral quandary that maybe if he bursts over to Africa and maims a militia warlord, then later a rival militia will come in and slaughter all the people in the camps that warlord was protecting. He never looks at a person dying of cancer and says "Wow. I can't cure that with punches."
There's some legitimately interesting moral questions implied by the existence of superheroes that the Marvel films never really address. I feel like the DC films have always been trying to address those questions, particularly in BvS. We've got a Superman who receives as much criticism as he does praise whenever he intervenes to save someone from something. We've got a Batman who has been emotionally eviscerated by two decades of crimefighting that left him with nothing but dead friends and scars. But BvS just never connected the fucking dots, it was as if they wanted us to fill in the blanks there and go "yeah, Superman's totes morally conflicted." And then they start fighting, because Batman hates Superman, I guess, but then they team up because Batman doesn't hate Superman anymore and ultimately it's all Lex Luthor's fault; they just go an arrest him and beat up a giant monster and all is well.
Like, Captain America bugs me in retrospect because it's morally sanitised. BvS bugs me in retrospect because it's dark and gritty but never explains why it's dark and gritty; it's just a bunch of grumpy people punching each other. Wonder Woman finally gets the balance right; it shows you a cynical and depressing look at the nature of human evil and the impotence of any individual to really stop it, but it does so through the lens of a hero who really wants to help people. It's cheesy sometimes, but it's cheesy for a reason. That lady who innocently assumes that men fight wars because of an evil god because they can't be doing this of their own free will - her innocence is necessary in order to highlight just how callous something like industrialised warfare can be.
I found it rather darkly hilarious that she went straight from recoiling at the horrors of war to giving no quarter to anyone even vaguely in her vicinity.bastardofmelbourne said:
Moreover, like much of the movie, it doesn't make any sense. She grew up on an island of warriors, not pacifists. She embraced this ethos, seeking out training in how to make people die by the skillful application of specialized killing utensils. She must surely be aware of the concept of inflicting horrible injuries in battle; her chosen vocation in life revolves around it.
If that's not enough, her visit to the trenches isn't even her first rodeo. She took part in the beach battle. She should know what maimed bodies look like; she and her fellow amazons created several literal boatloads of them.
She grew up on an island of immortal warriors. When that bungee-jumping Amazon archer got shot in the belly, that was literally the first time Diana had seen anyone die.Veylon said:
It really feels like a deconstruction of the first Captain America movie and the superheroes in war in general. It shows how powerless a superhero would be in a situation like war. It shows that the good guys are really the lesser of two evils at best and the complex of War. It doesn't go to far into those themes but I'm okay with that. My biggest problem with a lot of Deconstruction is they sometimes get to dark for their own good. Wonder woman still remembers it has to be a fun action movie at some point and it delivers on that.bastardofmelbourne said:
Speaking of which the no man land scene is probably one of my favorite action scenes in a long time.
I deeply suspect that feeling is partially an artefact of her old origin in which several of the Greek Goddesses blessed Diana with great gifts respective of their role in the Pantheon, and Aphrodite imbued her with beauty and love. However, raised as she was by an ancient martial order of dedicated protectors I suspect she feels that for a warrior to fall in battle, blade or bow in hand is quite different to innocent and unarmed men, women and children being driven from their homes and/or killed by a belligerent invader. She met the enemy on their terms: armed and looking them in the eye.Veylon said:
She launched herself into a church tower and collapsed it: an unusual level of strength is one thing, being a sword wielding artillery shell is quite another.Happyninja42 said:
Yeah, it was pretty neat. DC finally coughed out something of worth.
Godot clearly meant business and they nailed the character. Hey, turns out having an unironic good gal (puns!) trying to do The Right Thing can make for a perfectly serviceable protagonist. No need for everyone to grumble and scowl from dawn till dusk. Smiles are allowed again! Huzzah!
Action was okay. Not great, but fun enough. Turned to a bit of a mess toward the end. Which could be said of the film as a whole. The entire third act was rather shaky.
Despite it's length, the film felt a bit rushed. They got through the origin arc with commendable efficiency but then only had half a movie for the character arc. They pulled it off, but only just.
The big weakness was the villains. They were just awful. Not just flat or shallow, but actively bad. That bit where Ludendorf and Dr Poison do an honest-to-God villain giggle I was looking at the screen with my head to one side going, "...Really?"
I look forward to what can be done with Wonder Woman going forward. If we can get that woman playing that character in that way but with a better plot then we'll have a classic on our hands. However, she's going to have to survive Justice League first, which I am all but certain is not that classic.
Godot clearly meant business and they nailed the character. Hey, turns out having an unironic good gal (puns!) trying to do The Right Thing can make for a perfectly serviceable protagonist. No need for everyone to grumble and scowl from dawn till dusk. Smiles are allowed again! Huzzah!
Action was okay. Not great, but fun enough. Turned to a bit of a mess toward the end. Which could be said of the film as a whole. The entire third act was rather shaky.
Despite it's length, the film felt a bit rushed. They got through the origin arc with commendable efficiency but then only had half a movie for the character arc. They pulled it off, but only just.
The big weakness was the villains. They were just awful. Not just flat or shallow, but actively bad. That bit where Ludendorf and Dr Poison do an honest-to-God villain giggle I was looking at the screen with my head to one side going, "...Really?"
I look forward to what can be done with Wonder Woman going forward. If we can get that woman playing that character in that way but with a better plot then we'll have a classic on our hands. However, she's going to have to survive Justice League first, which I am all but certain is not that classic.
She aaaactually doesn't.Veylon said:
Something similar occurred to me, but I noticed that to begin with she wasn't necessarily killing everyone in her path. In the trenches she focuses on smashing the gun. Throughout the town fight she's just smacking dudes and flinging them about. Granted, I doubt being shield-bashed by a demi-god is exactly beneficial for one's health, but we're talking action movie physiology where vicious blows to the head rarely result in anything worse than unconsciousness.
It's only a bit later when she's specifically provoked that she straight up kills dudes, starting with Mr Church Sniper if memory serves.
Training for combat and actually seeing a severed limb or protruding abdominal wound are two very different things.
This, however, is true.
I'm pretty sure the dissonance was intentional, if perhaps ill advised.BloatedGuppy said:
Personally, I always associate him with the (unnamed?) affable Hospitaler Knight from Kingdom of Heaven. Loved that character.
Except you could say that about a huge list of DC beings, that aren't gods. So it doesn't automatically mean she's a god. Super strong sure, but hey, maybe she's just a Kryptonian. Or maybe she's some form of Lantern, and the lasso is really just her using her energy, and otherwise she's a mortal woman. Or any number of batshit crazy comic book explanations for her power that don't all default to "she's actually a goddess."Gordon_4 said:
I really don't understand why people find their skepticism of her claims so baffling. Super strength doesn't automatically equal god. Hell in most cases in DC it's something else. Most of them aren't gods as far as I'm aware, they're either aliens with super powers, humans with super powers, or robots, or any number of other combinations. Sure SHE is actually a god, but the track record of DC hardly makes this the going standard for explanation of super human ability.
Yeah I loved the movie, but even I can't fathom how that got past the first draft of ANY script, let alone make into the final product. Currently the DCEU villain watermark is still sitting with General Zod and Faora - and as much as Man of Steel pisses me off, they were fantastic.Zhukov said:
This is a true enough statement in the broader, contemporary DC universe, but Wonder Woman is not in that universe: she is as of this moment the first meta-human the world has ever seen in the DCEU. Superman is still 70 odd years away from being a thing so when someone wielding a sword and shield goes and plows through a machine gun nest, deflecting mortars with her shield, rips the side off a tank, swings an armoured car around like it's a conductor's baton and then manages to demolish a stone building by the very act of jumping into it then it is not unreasonable for the first parallels to be the Gods and demi-Gods of our own ancient myths.Happyninja42 said:
Again, in any other remotely contemporary DC product you would be 100% right: but I don't think you are in this very specific case.