So are drunk people responsible or not?

[wulf3n]

Also, loving all the people who's stance on being raped while intoxicated is that it was your fault for being drunk. Apparently, the other person in the equation who's taking advantage of an intoxicated person for sex is ignored in favor of trying to equivocate the two.

This topic is too depressing for me to actually dwell too much on, but with that statement, I seriously wonder if people would be so zealous to defend someone who were, say, to take a person's wallet while drunk.

Well that depends, did you ask the person if you could have their wallet and they, drunk and stupid as they are, take it out and give it to you? If so, and if the people in this thread aren't intellectually dishonest and just want to downplay rape for whatever reason, they should say yes, take that wallet.

Also, be sure to bring some paperwork that the victim person who is responsible for their actions can sign, giving away all their worldly possessions to you. According to this thread, that's perfectly acceptable to do and the homeless, poverty-stricken person has no one to blame but themselves.

While I can't speak for the people on this forum, the general consensus of the internet (if there is such a thing) pretty much would say "yes take the wallet"

Take for instance the guy that recently spent a third of his annual salary at a strip club while intoxicated [http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/11590451.Lap_dancing_club_accused_of____exploitation____after_drunk_customer_spends___7_500_in_one_night/] who was asking for a refund. The prevailing opinion in the comments section was that yes it was his own fault.

While not literally asking for his wallet it amounts to the same thing.

 

[mrdude2010]

The problem is deciding whether or not you want sex or not is ambiguous and depends on a lot of factors, whereas driving drunk is always a bad idea, period. There's no reason you should ever drive drunk, and you should know that even if you're drunk.

 

[Kathinka]

If you are still able to consent, it's not rape. Simple as that. Regretting sleeping with someone because you were hammered doesn't make it rape by any sane definition.

The story is of course different if someone is so hammered they are no longer able to express consent or completely unresponsive.

 

[Signa]

I think if you're responsible for getting drunk, you're responsible for anything that happens while you are drunk. That's why we don't drive drunk.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

God it's hilarious to see people compare having sex while drunk to rape. The fun never stops. It's like I've entered the Tumblr zone.

Drunk people are responsible for their own actions. Both in the sense that you made yourself drunk, and you're an adult look after yourself.

If you buy something from a store while drunk, they haven't scammed or robbed you.
If you give someone something while drunk, as a gift, it's theirs now not yours.
If you crash while drunk, it's your own fault and Toyota is not responsible for your stupidity.
If you shoot someone while drunk, it's your fault, you pulled the trigger.

Law and society aren't your mum, take responsibility for your own god damn actions.

Edit: Some of these things are arsehole-ish, there's no denying it, but they're not morally reprehensible, and they sure as hell don't warrant having a life ruined.

Edit2, Cos ya never know: If you aren't in some way consenting to sex while drunk, i.e. too intoxicated to participate in the act or say yes, then it still counts as rape even though you are drunk. The whole point I'm trying to get across here is that being drunk doesn't change shit.

 

[Thaluikhain]

There is one key difference to me though between someone having sex while drunk and someone drinking and driving...

Sex while drunk = Two to Tango
Drive while drunk = You alone

While it's a very gray area (what if you're both drunk? Did you rape each other?), having sex with someone who is drunk potentially means that someone is taking advantage of someone else. Like I stated, that can be very gray in either direction but drunk driving is pretty black & white.

I'm actually surprised anyone had a problem with this post. Seemed like it summed up the whole issue pretty clearly.

Not remotely surprised, but yeah. It's not remotely complicated, despite best efforts to make it so.

 

[KalCyan]

The person's statement just sounds like an attempt to justify rape.

The main difference in this case is that in the sex case its the other person committing the crime, for driving its the drunk person.

For driving while impaired its a crime as you are using a device quite capable and even likely of harming or killing people around you while not in a state to control it. We should all know this argument.

For Sex, I have tried writing this a few times but this is pretty much the answer. If you are sober and the other person is not capable of reasonable decisions, you are forcing sex on them. This is not a matter of fucking personal responsibility of the impaired person to not get drunk. This is someone who is both mentally and physically capable taking control of someone who is neither of these things. We can argue and debate about specifics and line drawing but it isn't that damn hard. If you are pushing stuff to happen every step of the way, if they are no longer able to articulate, if they aren't able to think probably. You Are Raping Them.

These are not hard things to spot. I will not deny that grey areas can happen. But any one using the argument that the impaired person shouldn't have put themselves in that position, is doing nothing more than justifying rape. There is no grey area in that statement.

For times when both people are impaired, don't dance around the idea, its still not that hard to tell. look at the levels of impairment, when that happens and rape is called almost inevitably the victim was vastly more impaired than the other person.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

The person's statement just sounds like an attempt to justify rape.

The main difference in this case is that in the sex case its the other person committing the crime, for driving its the drunk person.

For driving while impaired its a crime as you are using a device quite capable and even likely of harming or killing people around you while not in a state to control it. We should all know this argument.

For Sex, I have tried writing this a few times but this is pretty much the answer. If you are sober and the other person is not capable of reasonable decisions, you are forcing sex on them. This is not a matter of fucking personal responsibility of the impaired person to not get drunk. This is someone who is both mentally and physically capable taking control of someone who is neither of these things. We can argue and debate about specifics and line drawing but it isn't that damn hard. If you are pushing stuff to happen every step of the way, if they are no longer able to articulate, if they aren't able to think probably. You Are Raping Them.

These are not hard things to spot. I will not deny that grey areas can happen. But any one using the argument that the impaired person shouldn't have put themselves in that position, is doing nothing more than justifying rape. There is no grey area in that statement.

For times when both people are impaired, don't dance around the idea, its still not that hard to tell. look at the levels of impairment, when that happens and rape is called almost inevitably the victim was vastly more impaired than the other person.

Two people consent: sex.
Two people consent, one or both is drunk/high: rape.

Good to know rape isn't about consent in your mind. Bravo for comparing drunk sex to someone being held down and forcefully penetrated while screaming no, or having a knife to their throat or gun to their head.

 

[KalCyan]

CpT_x_Killsteal

I did not mention consent because unless you are totally uneducated/a massive arsehole, consent doesn't need to be explained. No consent equals rape.

My statement is saying that consent when you are not capable of making choices is not consent. A person saying yes when they cannot comprehend that they are walking is not consent its just words.

And yes I will compare drunk sex to that scenario. Is their a difference? they are both rape. I am sure their is a difference in how traumatised the victim feels but it doesn't change it from being rape.

People have been traumatised by both scenarios of rape. Some people have recovered and coped well from the violent type, some from the drunken kind. Some people have fallen apart and committed suicide from the violent form, some from the drunken kind.

Its individual resilience.

 

[KalCyan]

CpT_x_Killsteal

I did not mention consent because unless you are totally uneducated/a massive arsehole, consent doesn't need to be explained. No consent equals rape.

My statement is saying that consent when you are not capable of making choices is not consent. A person saying yes when they cannot comprehend that they are walking is not consent its just words.

And yes I will compare drunk sex to that scenario. Is their a difference? they are both rape. I am sure their is a difference in how traumatised the victim feels but it doesn't change it from being rape.

People have been traumatised by both scenarios of rape. Some people have recovered and coped well from the violent type, some from the drunken kind. Some people have fallen apart and committed suicide from the violent form, some from the drunken kind.

Its individual resilience.

EDIT: Sorry for double post

 

[Dizchu]

For Sex, I have tried writing this a few times but this is pretty much the answer. If you are sober and the other person is not capable of reasonable decisions, you are forcing sex on them. This is not a matter of fucking personal responsibility of the impaired person to not get drunk. This is someone who is both mentally and physically capable taking control of someone who is neither of these things. We can argue and debate about specifics and line drawing but it isn't that damn hard. If you are pushing stuff to happen every step of the way, if they are no longer able to articulate, if they aren't able to think probably. You Are Raping Them.

This is pretty much spot-on.

Having sex while drunk is fine as long as consent is given. You might regret it but everyone regrets things they do when they're hammered.

Having sex while paralytic/passed out though... that requires at least one of the people involved to be sober enough to know what they're doing, and they should know that if someone is barely able to stand or even speak, they just cannot consent.

I don't even think that every person that has sex with someone in this condition is necessarily being malicious. In their minds, they see someone mumbling "whatever" when they're on the floor desperately wanting to go to bed as some sort of meaningful consent.

I think the best thing to do is encourage sex ed classes to teach what consent is. Maybe indicate that there's a bit more nuance than "yes means yes", though that's usually reserved for people who are already well-acquainted with each other.

 

[jklinders]

Interesting question. I think Tippy2k answered fairly well but it looks like there is some clearing to be done.

There are a couple of layers to this question. If only one party out of the 2 are drunk that creates a power disparity. That immediately makes the possibility that one of the 2 parties will be taken advantage of far greater. If both are drunk then there is less of a power disparity. Rape is often or perhaps overwhelmingly the majority of the time about power so power cannot be removed from this equation.

Another thing is, hooking up with a stranger at a bar for sex is a high risk activity for all parties. These questions always seem to hinge around the notion that consent will be retroactively taken away after the fact. Women who hook up have a chance of being raped. Men have a (statistically tiny) chance of being falsely accused of rape. There are better reasons than this to avoid hooking up. You could catch a disease. You could get killed. Or you could have this happen.

Casual sex is risky and I am sick to death of both sides whining about it being hard to figure out consent in this situation when you could avoid it by using any number of other avenues to do this. There are groups and websites that are used for these types of hook ups these days. Or you could go the other way and try to actually get to know someone before you have sex with them. I'm not being prudish by saying this. It's just smart to acknowledge that an activity is risky when it is.

Drunk driving is different, mainly because there is no power dynamic at all involved. Sure you're drunk and your judgement is clouded but somewhere in that befuddled brain you also know it's stupid and you likely do not have a sober person trying to force you to drive. When a sober person is talking a drunk person to do anything that is bad for them that's where i draw the fucking line.

 

[Something Amyss]

Well that depends, did you ask the person if you could have their wallet and they, drunk and stupid as they are, take it out and give it to you? If so, and if the people in this thread aren't intellectually dishonest and just want to downplay rape for whatever reason, they should say yes, take that wallet.

Also, be sure to bring some paperwork that the victim person who is responsible for their actions can sign, giving away all their worldly possessions to you. According to this thread, that's perfectly acceptable to do and the homeless, poverty-stricken person has no one to blame but themselves.

I guess you could say my larger issue is that I doubt their honesty and/or sincerity. That you immediately got a response saying "depends on the scenario" is a big hint as to why.

 

[Michel Henzel]

CpT_x_Killsteal

I did not mention consent because unless you are totally uneducated/a massive arsehole, consent doesn't need to be explained. No consent equals rape.

My statement is saying that consent when you are not capable of making choices is not consent. A person saying yes when they cannot comprehend that they are walking is not consent its just words.

And yes I will compare drunk sex to that scenario. Is their a difference? they are both rape. I am sure their is a difference in how traumatised the victim feels but it doesn't change it from being rape.

People have been traumatised by both scenarios of rape. Some people have recovered and coped well from the violent type, some from the drunken kind. Some people have fallen apart and committed suicide from the violent form, some from the drunken kind.

Its individual resilience.

Guess by your definition I've been raped several times already.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

Any stupid decisions you make alone while drunk are your responsibility.

Someone trying to con you while youre drunk is their responsibility, and abusing your drunkness is recognised in law.

For example, if youre SO drunk that you cannot function and someone convinces you to scrawl your name on a legal document, said document wont be binding if you can prove you didnt sign it while of right body and mind. You cannot trick a drunk person to sign away their house and money, in the same way you cannot convince someone SO drunk they literally would groan "yes" to every question to have sex with you. Both are horrendously immoral and arguably illegal.

If said person decides to drive thats their own prerogative, and no one can lead them through the motions to drive without huge effort. If someone DID hypothetically drag a drunk person to a car, shove them in the drivers seat, start the car and scare the bejeezus out of them im sure they would share a responsibility.

 

[Amaror]

Wow, i just can't believe the people that equate "I got forced to sex by someone" to "I seduced someone yesterday and now wish i hadn't done that.".
It's just horrible to belittle the physically and mentally tormenting experience that actual rape victims had to endure in such a way.

 

[KalCyan]

Wow, i just can't believe the people that equate "I got forced to sex by someone" to "I seduced someone yesterday and now wish i hadn't done that.".
It's just horrible to belittle the physically and mentally tormenting experience that actual rape victims had to endure in such a way.

This is the attitude that causes all these problems. Your statement says every person who has sex while drunk and then says they were raped is lying. Are you so paranoid that you think people who regret sex always call it rape?

This is nothing more than fear of being accused of rape and in some cases trying to justify their own actions in raping someone.

rape is a very under reported crime, so it is a safe assumption that false accusations are very rare. Making it a non-issue, even more so as lying to the police is already a crime.

Please stop helping people justify rape.

 

[Aerevolt]

The first part is circumstantial, the other is not.
There is implied consent in the issue of drunken sex (in cases where people are already in a sexual relationship). There is no consenting to being run over by a drunk driver.
The difference is what you do when you're sober. A responsible sober person will arrange for alternate transportation (to prevent driving under the influence).
And a responsible sober person will make sure they're with people they trust before they get hammered. But you can't always trust other people.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Wow, i just can't believe the people that equate "I got forced to sex by someone" to "I seduced someone yesterday and now wish i hadn't done that.".
It's just horrible to belittle the physically and mentally tormenting experience that actual rape victims had to endure in such a way.

This is the attitude that causes all these problems. Your statement says every person who has sex while drunk and then says they were raped is lying. Are you so paranoid that you think people who regret sex always call it rape?

This is nothing more than fear of being accused of rape and in some cases trying to justify their own actions in raping someone.

rape is a very under reported crime, so it is a safe assumption that false accusations are very rare. Making it a non-issue, even more so as lying to the police is already a crime.

Please stop helping people justify rape.

To add to this, another good way to belittle actual rape victims is to say they aren't "actual" rape victims.

 

[Amaror]

This is the attitude that causes all these problems. Your statement says every person who has sex while drunk and then says they were raped is lying. Are you so paranoid that you think people who regret sex always call it rape?

This is nothing more than fear of being accused of rape and in some cases trying to justify their own actions in raping someone.

rape is a very under reported crime, so it is a safe assumption that false accusations are very rare. Making it a non-issue, even more so as lying to the police is already a crime.

Please stop helping people justify rape.

Ahh, i always love it when people tell me what i said, even though i didn't say it.
Please give me a citation were i said that every person who has sex while drunk and then says they were raped is lying. I am very curious about that, since i never said that.

I was saying that if a person gives loud and clear consent while the person is drunk they are still giving consent.
If a person doesn't give consent and someone has sex with them anyway it is rape, whether any of them are drunk or not.
If a person is incapacitated to the point were they clearly are incapable of making decisions, whether it's through alcohol or anything else, and someone has sex with them it is rape.
If a person has drunk alcohol, yet is perfectly capable to articulate, move around and generally take care of themselves, and consents to sex it isn't rape.

To answer your other question. No, i don't think everyone that regrets sex calls it rape. That's the very reason i said that i can't believe people that claim everyone that regrets sex should call it rape. My post was triggered by LifeCharacter's claim that a person is unable to give consent when they drank any alcohol at all.