So Bad It's Brilliant

Mikeyfell

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3 pages long?
Well this calls for a TL:DR if anything does...

So bad they're good movies are usually creative.
They usually reach for some outlandish goal and fall short, and the ensuing triainwreck is fun to watch (Shoot 'em Up, anyone?)

Video games, especially triple A games don't even know what "Creativity" is so if any game happens to have a creative idea or mechanic it's the best thing ever regardless of quality of execution. (Mirror's Edge, anyone?)

The games that fall in the "Comparable Quality Spectrum" as so bad it's good movies are your Gears of War's and your Metal of Honor's, your Dragon Age 2's and Dishonored's

Games that fail because they play it too safe.
Trying is tantamount to succeeding in the game's industry, and yet so few people try.


EDIT: Oh, still didn't read but did the article mention Dark Void?
 

Ushiromiya Battler

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Feb 7, 2010
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No mention of Cavia's Drakengard? I thought that was THE epitome of so bad it's good in the video game world.
To bad nearly no one have heard of it.

And I've always preferred Cavia over Suda51, I don't really get all the praise he gets...
 

Amaror

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Apr 15, 2011
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I don't agree on your examples of B - movies.
I mean: Expendables, seriously?!
B - movies are great because they're a good kind of bad. They're not simply bad, but they are funny because they have stupid character's, nonsensical plot - twists and everything else is over the top. Stuff that would be bad in a lot of movies but just works perfectly together. Movies like brain dead, army of dead, or, for a more recent example, John dies at the end.
That what i would call a B-movie. Not Satire movie's like American Pie or just movies with a stupid plot like Expendables (Ugh).
 

GloatingSwine

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If Lollipop Chainsaw had fun combat, none of the rest would matter.

But it really didn't.

I mean shit, there's a bit where you drive a combine harvester through a field of zombies and it's a chore.

How do you make that boring? How do you fuck that up??!?

It was totally intentionally parodic, but that didn't matter because it made chopping zombies with a chainsaw not fun, and that's fucking inexcusable.
 

Thyunda

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Magefeanor said:
No mention of Cavia's Drakengard? I thought that was THE epitome of so bad it's good in the video game world.
To bad nearly no one have heard of it.

And I've always preferred Cavia over Suda51, I don't really get all the praise he gets...
Then it's likely you don't quite get what he does for games. His work carries an energy most others lack, and he's capable of being over the top without it seeming hollow and useless.
 

Bocaj2000

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Before the industry can have so-bad-it's-good, we need to have serious story telling be the norm. Until then, Lollipop Chainsaw simply a subpar game that meets the norm in every way. Oversexualization is the norm; zombies are the norm; etc. It does nothing different and brings nothing new to the table. It is the epitome of mediocre. If anything, I'd call "Blood Dragon" the B movie of video games due to the genius advertising and the middle-finger-button.

This article also misunderstands why people like bad movies. Nobody likes something because it's bad. That is a stupid thing to do. Instead people find some entertainment value out of the movie that wasn't originally intended. It's like watching "The Room" to laugh at the acting or "Tokyo Gore Police" to laugh at how the silliness is played straight.
 

Amaror

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NameIsRobertPaulson said:
A bad plot does not make a bad movie.

I suppose I have to be the one to defend The Expendables.

Going into the movie, me and my friends all agreed the same thing: if there is more than 30 seconds straight of plot exposition at any point, the movie is a failure. The entire point was to watch Terry Crews, Randy Couture, Sly Stallone, Dolph Lundgren and Steve Austin blow some stuff up with huge weapons while Jet Li and Jason Statham exchange one-liners kicking people. Sight and spectacle over Oscar Bait. And it did that perfectly well. If you went into the movie expecting Saving Private Ryan, you were going to be disappointed. But if you went in expecting an over-the-top action movie from 1987, you got what you came for.
You know, i get that. I never expected the movie to have a awesome plot or anything.
I don't need an AWESOME plot.
What i need in a movie is at least SOMETHING.
As long as there's action, it at least needs to make sense.
And i am not talking about some minor plot - hole that happens in nearly every movie.
The entire basis for the finale is pretty broken.
Ok, so the evil president kidnaps the beatifull daughter of his general to keep him loyal. That sounds like a great idea, but lets just roll with it and pretend it's a smart idea. Then the mercenary guy attacks with his friends because he loves that girl. Plot still not winning any oscars but i am fine with that. Then the general gets killed AND: The President still keeps the daughter hostage! He knows the mercenaries are killing his army for this girl. The only reason to keep her lookup just died and he keeps risking everything to keep her hostage.
That's just stupid.
 

Denizen

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It's a shame that the media and even people who identify themselves as gamers hold double standards for video games and what can be presented. Movies, comic books, literature, and classical art can celebrate its freedom by putting whatever it wants for its intended audience and the inclusion of mature content is almost always done tastefully, to make an artistic point, and/or because the tone dictates it. It's as if the golden rule of, "If you're that sensitive to this mature content, maybe you should not be watching/reading/viewing it," doesn't apply to video games. And with video games fighting to gain recognition as an artistic medium, the double standards in play dictate that it will only get that respect if it relinquishes its freedom to be absurd or graphic in any varying degree (despite having a rating system) just to avoid potentially offending someone who ignored the label or doesn't respect the intent of the work. Meanwhile every other artistic medium enjoy those privileges, some even without a rating label so if you do complain, you'll be laughed at or told politely that this artistic piece is just not for you.

And so with all that said, that's the real reason why video games can't have so bad it's good/brilliant or accept over-the-top and absurdity. Although part of it has to do with publisher restrictions and people who identify themselves as gamers not willing to accept anything that deviates from the norm, it all comes back to the wrong people's reactions to graphical content, sexuality, and tone given majority rule and merit instead of finding something that suits them. That's also why we're seeing so little variety compared to ten+ years ago where someone could easily find something that appeals to them instead of now where every release has to face the spotlight which normally wouldn't be a bad thing; but, if it doesn't have maximum appeal and maybe has a bit too much mature content than the insufferably sensitive general audiences would like, it's over criticized than it should and can sometimes become taboo. The general audience has become the only audience, no work can be respected for what it is, and its intended audience will be shamed for liking it and labeled a creep or whatever.

I'm just glad that japanese developers carry on the freedom of putting whatever they like in video games and even in some cases include western imagery, celebrating it with a fun and ultimately benign over the top style and purpose. How sad is that where western based developers can't celebrate its own culture if it has too much graphical content, sexuality, and unconventional tones for the undeserving masses? I guess Japan and other markets will have to do that for the west until things change. Generally japanese culture tends to be less prudish so their games tend to get censored just so it can appear on western stores but if it still has content that ticks off over-sensitive western audiences, its then critically panned and labeled taboo. No wonder why most japanese companies don't feel like putting up with these unnecessary complaints and rather not bring it here when the complaints can all be answered the same, "If you're that sensitive to this mature content, maybe you should not be playing it and let everyone else enjoy it." You will never hear that from the western gaming industry until things change and artistic vision is protected from double standards.
 

xyrafhoan

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When I think "So bad it's good", I don't think of mediocre movies like The Expendables. Lollipop Chainsaw and Shadows of the Damned are probably better compared to bad-but-good movies like Evil Dead 2 and Army of Darkness, of which they share a similar genre. However, just because the plot of Lollipop Chainsaw and Shadows of the Damned are tongue-in-cheek does not excuse the gameplay being repetitive. That's not "so bad it's good". It's "so mediocre I'm tired of playing".

I think it's easier to appreciate "so bad it's good" in flawed video game engines. The most memorable moments of Skyrim, for instance, might include a horse that hits a bump and flies off into the sky to zoom around at ludicrous speeds with its oblivious rider, or a giant who smashes a bandit so hard they fly off thousands of feet into the sky before crashing down and bouncing like rubber on impact. Or you have a whole game based on irrational physics like QWOP or Surgeon Simulator 2013. It gives you something to talk about that's unique to games as a medium.
 

Korsgaard

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Interesting article, and I completely agree that Suda51 is a great example of such games - except Killer7, that was just absolute fridge brilliance - but why does it seem so many people at the Escapist rag on The Expendables movies? MovieBob does this a lot too - did Sly Stallone spam the site once or something? I really like the Expendables films personally.
 

Casual Shinji

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Honestly, Suda51 seems to be doing it just for the quirky now.

He's like current Gainax; Just make it crazy and go real fast and people will love it regardless. Cuz quirky for the sake of quirky is the new black. See also the anime, Redline.

What makes Verhoeven satire work is that it's ridiculous, yet still mingles in with the overall setting. It doesn't leap out at you going "See what I did there?" Suda51 is as blunt as can be, because that's apparently what's necessary to be satirical in todays industry. And it's a problem with games ingeneral; Lack of subtlety. Everything must be screamed at the player and shoved in their faces, cause god forbid they might actually have to figure certain things out for themselves.

But then I already found it odd that this article decided to focus on Lollipop Chainsaw, instead of, say, Metal Gear Solid, or Resident Evil 4; much better and stable examples of mad genius games.
 

FFKonoko

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Personally, I loved lollipop chainsaw and the combat didn't get boring to me. Particularly once you've gotten all the moves, I found a fun satisfaction in trying to get decent Sparkle Hunting numbers and such.
Maybe it's just because I'm not playing the game from a male fantasy view, but I found Juliet and Nick to both be an interesting and funny characters. They may not be...(struggles to think of video game example of good characters)...the Prince and Princess from Prince of Persia? Whatever. The idea is, despite having elements of charicatures in them, they go well beyond that starting point in my opinion. The little touches of , and the other characters are fun appearences too. Rosalind for example "Dreams to meet Justin Beiber...and add his skull to her collection". That on top of the typical fun musical symbolism of the various Dark Purveyors.

I honestly would argue that the game isn't "so bad it's good", which is such a misleading and loaded term. I'd say that Big Rigs over the Road Racing is so bad it's good, Lollipop Chainsaw just has a touch of deliberate cheese. (I suppose one could say a style that is a homage to B-movies, or that's tongue-in-cheek or something else like that.) It doesn't TRY or WANT to be complicated but at the same time it actually feels more fleshed out to me than many things that are trying so hard to be complicated or deep. Ugh, hard to describe.

So, yeah, the gameplay isn't perfect, Suda51 has always and will always have that problem.
But that doesn't get in the way for me, the novel experience is more than enough to still lead to a fun experience.


Edit: Doesn't help that even with him being pretty damn straightforward with it, some people still miss the point. Relatedly, Shadows of the Damned has the VERY BEST romance I have ever seen in any game and a hell (ha) of a lot better than most movies.
 

Arnoxthe1

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Dec 25, 2010
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Anti-American Eagle said:
I want to say the film version of Starship Troopers is good Satire. But, the problem is that it has dragged the name of the book down. Verhoeven hadn't finished the book, and I can only guess that he asked some one who had for a synopsis, looked up controversy about it and decided to parody it.
He just read the beginning of it and then put it down saying it was 'too boring'.

Seriously, screw that movie.
 

FoolKiller

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workablemeat said:
So Bad It's Brilliant

We have B-Movies, and we love them. Why not B-Games?

Read Full Article
Except you disagree with yourself. The idea of so bad its good doesn't work. You picked games that were good. The Suda51 games are actually good games. People loved Resident Evil but that would be the defining so bad its good game. Remember the terrible voice acting and script in that game? It was an atrocity but the gameplay was good. The stories may be childish/ridiculous/sexist etc. in the Suda51 games, but the gameplay is solid (regardless of if it is actually bland or not).

The key of a game being bad is bad gameplay, and since it is interactive as you said, it takes the player out of his/her environment and frustrates the player. Try finding enjoyment in playing stuff like Thor, Drake and the 99 Dragons, and so on.

I guess the question is how you want to define a bad game. If you define it by the bad cheese that B-movies are then yes, you can have good "bad" games, but if you define a game by what matters, which is gameplay, then it is not possible to have good "bad" games.
 

ZippyDSMlee

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Finishing up Lollipop Chainsaw and all in all I like it, I loved Shadows of the damned it had slightly less annoying gamepaly issues. I like B grade games that know their B grade games like Singularity or Infernal or Dark Sector.
 

Tallim

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Suda 51 makes Grindhouse games which to draw parallels with the movie term makes his games "Exploitation Games." The sad part is that really it's very difficult to tell the difference between a AAA mainstream title and his titles in theme and general presentation.

I took Lollipop Chainsaw and Shadows Of The Damned for what they were and really liked them. It helped that Lollipop Chainsaw was less than half the price of a AAA game on release too (At least in the UK, I got it for £16 on release day)
 

TheMadDoctorsCat

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NameIsRobertPaulson said:
Amaror said:
I don't agree on your examples of B - movies.
I mean: Expendables, seriously?!
B - movies are great because they're a good kind of bad. They're not simply bad, but they are funny because they have stupid character's, nonsensical plot - twists and everything else is over the top. Stuff that would be bad in a lot of movies but just works perfectly together. Movies like brain dead, army of dead, or, for a more recent example, John dies at the end.
That what i would call a B-movie. Not Satire movie's like American Pie or just movies with a stupid plot like Expendables (Ugh).
A bad plot does not make a bad movie.

I suppose I have to be the one to defend The Expendables.

Going into the movie, me and my friends all agreed the same thing: if there is more than 30 seconds straight of plot exposition at any point, the movie is a failure. The entire point was to watch Terry Crews, Randy Couture, Sly Stallone, Dolph Lundgren and Steve Austin blow some stuff up with huge weapons while Jet Li and Jason Statham exchange one-liners kicking people. Sight and spectacle over Oscar Bait. And it did that perfectly well. If you went into the movie expecting Saving Private Ryan, you were going to be disappointed. But if you went in expecting an over-the-top action movie from 1987, you got what you came for.
No, over-the-top action movies from 1987 knew how to do action scenes without giving people motion sickness. I love over-the-top action movies. I love "Predator", "The Terminator", "Raiders of the Lost Arc", "Demolition Man", and dozens of other great action movies.

Look, I'm glad you enjoyed the movie. I don't bedgrudge someone enjoying something that I didn't. But honestly the "don't go in expecting a masterpiece" argument is an obnoxious example of a "straw man". Nobody's saying that it HAS to be "Saving Private Ryan", but I do at least expect a well-crafted movie. And by any objective standards - quality of cinematography, camerawork, even scoring - it's not that.

There are plenty of bad movies I've enjoyed. Hell, I can watch "Dude, Where's My Car" any time. But I don't say to people "you'll enjoy it if you don't go in expecting it to be Citizen Kane".
 

Quantum Glass

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The whole, "This is what everyone else is doing wrong!" thing gets stale after a while, though I suppose it's possible Suda has actually put his money where his mouth is in other games of his that I've never heard of and/or that haven't been released outside Japan.

At this point, it seems like Suda is just cashing in on his fame as an eccentric game writer/director, rather than trying to make a statement.

As for the topic of discussion itself, I think films are better at remaining functional when they're bad. A bad game has buggy controls, glitches, et cetera--a bad movie has flying saucers on strings and Wilhelm screams left and right. In a film, the actors and actresses are in on it, and you can tell when they're having a good time hamming it up. Games are too scripted for that sort of input.