So, death penalty

[ReservoirAngel]

I don't believe in the death-penalty, I think it's barbaric.

What if I killed your whole family. Then murdered your friends one by one. Then sent tape after tape to your house showing you all the killings. You would want me to just rot in prison for the rest of my life? To each his own I guess.

I would. Because I wouldn't want to have some part in being a murderer like you. It's like Jeremy Irons said. You crossed the line, but I don't want to join you.

Besides I'm a pacifist at heart so wanting someone dead just isn't in my nature.

 

[Archroy]

According to this wiki page, since 1973 in the USA, there have been 140 cases where a death row inmate was later exonerated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exonerated_death_row_inmates#United_States

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

I think the death penalty is acceptable in only a few very specific circumstances.

1. Evidence means that its impossible for the criminal to be innocent. Under any circumstance. Hundreds of witnesses, CCTV or a proud criminal boasting of his crimes and showing his own evidence to damn himself.

2. 100% unrepentant of their crime, proud, revelled in it.

3. The crime has no rational motive of any description other than sadism or needless cruelty. Cold blooded murder doesnt come under this as one can murder an abuser or rapist for revenge, a poor motive but one thats understandable. A human feeling. Even if it is a poor one. If no motive is present. If crimes were commited only to make others suffer extreme agony or pain or to ruin peoples lives for the sheer sick pleasure of it. That counts. An act of anger on a cheating spouses partner also has a human motive.

Then. And only then. Do i think we can execute these... things. Because anyone who commits an act of murder or torture that fulfills these three roles cannot be called human and i think loses their right to live in society. Theres a point i feel of no return where you become something less than human and fall to utter depravity. These things should not be allowed to exist or drain resources.

EDIT: Got to say that the video was very moving... im not sure on my stance anymore...

 

[hazabaza1]

As long as there is any chance that an innocent person can be executed, no matter how small, it's not worth it.

I'll just leave this here.

Even if these two sexy men didn't agree I'd still say it was wrong.

 

[Mayhaps]

bad analogy is bad... there IS no other way to acquire oil... while the system in place to approve, house then carry out the sentence on people who receive the death penalty can be change in many many ways... for instance why does housing someone on "death row" cost more than housing someone guilty of the same crime in normal max confinement? because the idiots who write the budget allow it not because it actually requires more resources

Yes we can, we can get the things we need for oil from fresh plants. It's just more expensive.

 

[ReservoirAngel]

I don't believe in the death-penalty, I think it's barbaric.

What if I killed your whole family. Then murdered your friends one by one. Then sent tape after tape to your house showing you all the killings. You would want me to just rot in prison for the rest of my life? To each his own I guess.

I would. Because I wouldn't want to have some part in being a murderer like you. It's like Jeremy Irons said. You crossed the line, but I don't want to join you.

Besides I'm a pacifist at heart so wanting someone dead just isn't in my nature.

so instead of giving the killer a nice painless quick death you would rather him sit in the horrible confinement of prison miserable and lonely for the rest of his life?... very pacifist and kind of you.. lol

I said I was a pacifist, I never said I was kind or compassionate. Pacifism just means I don't like violence or death in any real life situation (still play violent video games because if I didn't what the fuck else would I play?), it doesn't mean I'm some soft-hearted pussy about everything. If someone commits a crime, they pay their time. If that means life in prison, so be it. Just don't murder the guy in revenge. That's all the death penalty is, it's people collectively wanting revenge on someone. Since when is killing in vengeance a good thing? Sure in Kill Bill it looks cool but in reality it's a fundamentally stupid thing for a civilised society to be doing.

 

[FamoFunk]

I'm against the death penalty. I don't think it's a justifiable thing for any civilised society to still be doing.

Though just to mess up some people's heads I'm very much pro-abortion and pro-assisted suicide. Work that out.

Same here.

But I don't think you can put Abortion and Assisted Suicide in the same league as the death penalty, as they've giving someone a choice to end their life through things like illness and another helps Woman in horrendous situations like rape or their own health.

The Death Penalty is pointless, and can and does kill an innocent person. Also, killing someone for being a killer? Makes no sense...

 

[DANEgerous]

I have to say I support it as long as it is an exceptionally high standard of proof, put simply if someone goes on a killing spree and I stop them by lethal force in my mind they have just received the death penalty by my hands. We skipped the trial tossed due process to the wind convicted the man who was caught in the act of murder and sentenced him to death.

In my mind there is no difference in killing said man on the spot or after a trial his actions are blatant and his guilt clear even if he was controlled by a 3ed party threat he without hesitation murdered innocent people and i would have no hesitation or regret putting him down myself at any point of time.

 

[ReservoirAngel]

I don't believe in the death-penalty, I think it's barbaric.

What if I killed your whole family. Then murdered your friends one by one. Then sent tape after tape to your house showing you all the killings. You would want me to just rot in prison for the rest of my life? To each his own I guess.

I would. Because I wouldn't want to have some part in being a murderer like you. It's like Jeremy Irons said. You crossed the line, but I don't want to join you.

Besides I'm a pacifist at heart so wanting someone dead just isn't in my nature.

so instead of giving the killer a nice painless quick death you would rather him sit in the horrible confinement of prison miserable and lonely for the rest of his life?... very pacifist and kind of you.. lol

I said I was a pacifist, I never said I was kind or compassionate. Pacifism just means I don't like violence or death in any real life situation (still play violent video games because if I didn't what the fuck else would I play?), it doesn't mean I'm some soft-hearted pussy about everything. If someone commits a crime, they pay their time. If that means life in prison, so be it. Just don't murder the guy in revenge. That's all the death penalty is, it's people collectively wanting revenge on someone. Since when is killing in vengeance a good thing? Sure in Kill Bill it looks cool but in reality it's a fundamentally stupid thing for a civilised society to be doing.

meh killing in vengeance among other worse sins is what we've done in every single war.. it's usually veiled as "protecting the innocents"... again in a perfect world you would have a point but we live in one that is far far from it and can never be it... again the people who oppose this kind of thing are those who have never really experienced the violence and horrible things humans will do to each other... they are the ones with the luxury of sitting safely in their comfy homes and going off of opinions and no experience

For the record I'm very much anti-war too, so I don't need to worry about any kind of double-standard on that front.

 

[ReservoirAngel]

I don't believe in the death-penalty, I think it's barbaric.

What if I killed your whole family. Then murdered your friends one by one. Then sent tape after tape to your house showing you all the killings. You would want me to just rot in prison for the rest of my life? To each his own I guess.

I would. Because I wouldn't want to have some part in being a murderer like you. It's like Jeremy Irons said. You crossed the line, but I don't want to join you.

Besides I'm a pacifist at heart so wanting someone dead just isn't in my nature.

so instead of giving the killer a nice painless quick death you would rather him sit in the horrible confinement of prison miserable and lonely for the rest of his life?... very pacifist and kind of you.. lol

I said I was a pacifist, I never said I was kind or compassionate. Pacifism just means I don't like violence or death in any real life situation (still play violent video games because if I didn't what the fuck else would I play?), it doesn't mean I'm some soft-hearted pussy about everything. If someone commits a crime, they pay their time. If that means life in prison, so be it. Just don't murder the guy in revenge. That's all the death penalty is, it's people collectively wanting revenge on someone. Since when is killing in vengeance a good thing? Sure in Kill Bill it looks cool but in reality it's a fundamentally stupid thing for a civilised society to be doing.

meh killing in vengeance among other worse sins is what we've done in every single war.. it's usually veiled as "protecting the innocents"... again in a perfect world you would have a point but we live in one that is far far from it and can never be it... again the people who oppose this kind of thing are those who have never really experienced the violence and horrible things humans will do to each other... they are the ones with the luxury of sitting safely in their comfy homes and going off of opinions and no experience

For the record I'm very much anti-war too, so I don't need to worry about any kind of double-standard on that front.

all I'm saying is that most people never actually experience the really horrible things people do to each other in life... they don't have an honest educated opinion on the matter because of that... and they are lucky for it but it's like letting a blind man pick out what color you should paint your house... he knows nothing of the true variety of colors across the spectrum nor will whatever color your house is ever affect him personally...

the honest harsh reality of life is that some people are just a waste of space and the world is much better off with them in the ground and no matter how nicely or carefully you try and get it done a few innocents here and there will always suffer too.. I'm a firm believer in that those who have no experience should not be making the decisions... and in this case that is exactly what we have... people who know nothing of real death and suffering deciding what is morally ok and what is not... it's crap

I disagree for one simple reason:

Your argument here seems to be that you think people need to be in such horrible situations to really have a valid opinion on it. I would argue the exact opposite: Being put into such a horrible, personal situation makes people irrational. And leaving things that are literally matters of life and death up to irrational people is never going to be a good idea.

 

[Dragonclaw]

If someone's actions are so vile and unrepentant that there is no chance they should ever be allowed to rejoin society I have no problem saying they should be permanently removed provided their guilt is absolutely proven. That being said I'm also very much for ironic punishment, which most courts would see as "cruel and unusual"...hey, commit a cruel and unusual crime and I say the punishment should fit.

Take Timothy McVeigh...the guy who blew up a building in Oklahoma City, including a day care center. 168 people killed, 680 injured, totally guilty and completely unrepentant. He was executed and I'm fine with that. If I had MY druthers I would have executed him by placing him sealed in the basement of a building scheduled to be demolished anyway and drop the building on his sorry ass. Hearing all the appeals in California based on "it's cruel and unusual because the needle might hurt" after someone has inflicted unspeakable pain on others to earn their sentence is absolutely backwards in my humble opinion.

 

[Da Orky Man]

Also, executions are more expensive than keeping a prisoner alive until they die naturally anyway... fun fact.

I don't know where you get your figures from but that is not only laughably incorrect but doesn't even pass muster with basic common sense... less the guy was arrested when he was like 80 and on his deathbed already

It is correct. The legal fees to put someone to death, givent that the process lasts more than a dozen years, adds up. It costs many times more to put someone to death.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29552692/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/execute-or-not-question-cost/

http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=42

http://www.good.is/post/weighing-the-death-penalty-vs-life-without-parole/

 

[NightmareWarden]

My post is going to be about my views on the moral reasoning on why I believe that the death penalty is acceptable, I'm not going to go into the risk of their being a mistake, problems with this and that court, bla-de-bla-de-derp.

I think that if someone had planned beforehand and murdered someone or multiple people intentionally, they deserve the death penalty. People are punished for taking away the rights of others by proving to be a risk to their safety or inhibiting their actions. This spectrum includes torture since you hold someone and present permanent risks to his/her well-being, money-related crimes in which you could cause serious financial risks to one or more people for the rest of their lives, and even killing someone in which you take away their right to live. To prove that someone does not deserve to live, or rather, does not have the right to live anymore due to his/her actions is the ultimate punishment. Life is a gift, so taking it away is the ultimate punishment. Life in prison is still existing, which is more than can be said for many victims. Taking away that is taking away all of their rights as a person, and that is why it is the ultimate punishment: you are losing your rights because of you restricted or destroyed the rights of others.

 

[Woodsey]

As long as there is any chance that an innocent person can be executed, no matter how small, it's not worth it.

I'll just leave this here.

This, and I'd add that even if we lived in a society where every murder conviction was 100% infallible, I would still reject it.

People shouldn't be so quick to deal out death and judgement. Gandalf knows best.

 

[The White Hunter]

Killing the guilty person doesn't solve anything either and the person could end up being revered as a martyr in some cases.

Yeah this. Seriously this is a bigger danger than letting people get away with it under circumstance.

It's a very complex issue but I think that, say somebody hurt somebody close to me, a child or my partner, and was to be executed, I don't think I'd be satisfied with them getting a quick and painless way out. I'd kind of rather they suffered in a small, dark, cramped, damp cell for the rest of their days; reflecting and what they've done and suffering for their crime.

 

[The White Hunter]

It is correct. The legal fees to put someone to death, givent that the process lasts more than a dozen years, adds up. It costs many times more to put someone to death.

Surely it depends on the method and such. I'd imagine alot of the cost is in paperwork, paying people, legal complications, etc.

Bullets are cheap, so is an axe. If you want real value for your money use a rope and a sharp sudden drop...

[I haven't read your links and I'm pretty steadfastly against the death penalty; people should suffer for serious crimes and not get out with a quick chemical death; as I already posted before seeing your exchange with others]

[Edit] I recall reading an article somewhere about how long it can take to get somebody to the point of execution in the US, wasn't there a guy who they basically had to keep imprisioned for more than 30 years before they could execute him?

 

[ChaplainOrion]

I would say it is justifiable if that person is completely 100% guilty of a heinous crime with no sense of regret and no hope of rehabilitation, and is a threat to society, as in they're smart enough to escape prison or have people who will break him/her out. I mean this thread would be completely different if it was, Would You Kill Hitler? Hitler killed millions of people and if he was imprisoned, no matter where, loyal Nazi followers would always try to break him out, most likely killing people in the process.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

I'm against the death penalty. I don't think it's a justifiable thing for any civilised society to still be doing.

Though just to mess up some people's heads I'm very much pro-abortion and pro-assisted suicide. Work that out.

Not hard to work out, really. Assisted suicide is just preventing unnecessary suffering. Abortion often does the same thing.
Which reminds me, I wanted to make a .gif of a biologist laughing so that I can point it at pro-life people...


As for the death penalty, I think it's pretty fucking stupid. I don't want to go into details right now because I'm tired and it's complicated, so I'll just say that I'm glad I live over the pond from 'merica.

 

[IGGEL]

I really only support the death penalty if they repeatedly try to break out.

 

[The White Hunter]

Were you being sarcastic or were you actually agreeing with me?

Agreeing my good fellow. Execution solves nothing.