So, I agree with pretty much everything in Anita Sarkeesian's Damsels in Distress video.

EstrogenicMuscle

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Sorry. Wait, no. I'm not sorry. I'm really not sorry at all. Sorry I'm not sorry.

There's a lot of misconceptions about what she's saying in the video. A lot of strawman arguments about her video. And a lot of downright wrong and sometimes misogynists rebuttals of her videos.

On the other hand, I pretty much agree with pretty much everything in her video. Maybe not %100, but the very vast majority. Since there are a lot of videos attempting to, usually quite poorly explain why they disagree with her video, picking it apart piece by piece usually with strawman arguments and so forth.

I'm going to, piece by piece, explain why I agree with the various points she makes in the video.

0:45
One of the things I like about her introduction to the video, is that she states that it is very much possible to enjoy media that contains sexism, without approving of the sexism itself. A statement that has sadly, mostly fallen on deaf ears. As many of the arguments against her are on the argument that she feels and claims the opposite. A strawman argument that ignores the fact she said this, because it doesn't go along with their agenda against her.

I enjoy video games. I enjoy video games with sexism in them. That does not mean I do not think that video games can and should be improved upon in their gender representation.

Dinosaur Planet
There is nothing wrong with this example at all. And I agree entirely, the way in which Dinosaur Planet had a strong woman originally, only to eventually play second fiddle to Fox McCloud, is saddening to me. And an evidence of sexism that has long been in the industry, and still exists today. There has been recent talk about "Remember Me" and articles from Penny Arcade [http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/remember-mes-surprising-connection-to-facebook-and-why-its-protagonist-had], about the industry purposely pushing female characters out of the way for male ones. Crystal, is a strong female character we lost because of this industry practice, and I lament it.

And, there is nothing historically inaccurate about her claim. This is a piece of video game history that happened.

And not only did it happen. But it is a fantastic starting example. To exemplify the point that women needing help or being put into compromising positions in games is not the problem. But how female empowerment is so often traded for male empowerment. Crystal goes from empowered to damsel. And from a subject, to an object.

A lot of people criticize her going into historical precedent for the damsel in distress trope. As it doesn't related to modern video games in the modern era. However, I think it is important to provide historical context in general. That also shows how she isn't singling out video games as having a problem, both merely taking part of a cultural trend that has pervaded all media for centuries. Many people blame Anita of being against video games and singling out video games for attack. In reality, she is just showing that video games are just another piece of media which partakes in this sexist trope. In fact, Damsels in Distress are still fairly common in Hollywood. Of course, just because this has a long history, and still happens in Hollywood, does not excuse video games. And does not mean that video games cannot be better than that.

It was also a great specific example to bring up the origins of Donkey Kong.

Her examples of which games Peach is or is not kidnapped are also accurate. The sports games and so forth are not the "core games". And the fact that Super Mario Bros. 2, where she is playable, is merely a re-skinning of Doki Doki Panic, only makes things more sad.

She goes on after this, to describe the subject object dichotomy. Which makes sense. Also, this is true. The damsel in distress trope, the biggest problem with it, is the double standard in which men tend to be given the status of subject, while women are robbed of it and relegated to the status of object. Not allowed to have their own agency.

"Most often becoming or reduced to, a prize to be won, a treasure to be found, or a goal to be achieved."
I agree with this assessment. Also, this is one very common statement that people who disagree with Anita, lazily take issue with. Such as thunderf00t's incredibly bitter strawman rebuttal which is pathetic and embarrassing to witness(it should be noted that both thunderf00t and TJ "The Amazing Atheist" have a strong vendetta against feminists and both of them are very defensive about white heterosexual male atheists and like to think they are a minority. And that being white men makes them every bit as much of a minority as being atheist.).

The lazy rebuttal?
"Or a loved one to be protected. Good God girl you are one sick puppy something something hyperbolic drivel about empathy."

Why is it lazy? It's a strawman argument and that completely misses the point. There is nothing wrong with wanting to help others, have empathy for others, wanting to protect those you care about. And this is not what Anita is attacking. In the majority of these games, female characters have cheap, one dimensional characterization, and are made as an excuse, not as characters in and of themselves. Nary is it implied that Mario and Peach care for each other. And the majority of these "damsel" characters, are females made to be helpless, without explanation other than them being women. With no other explanation for their helplessness and needing of saving, than being women. It is cheap, lazy characterization, and it is a double standard in which men are allowed to be heroes, save the day, and save others, while women are reduced to being helpless objects.

It is natural and good to want to help others. It is sexist to create a double standard where female characters are tended to be rendered helpless and in need of saving rather than men. And in the majority of the cases where the trope is applied, the female characters are treated more like objects than loved ones. Their feelings and desires and agency are not expressed.

"I've heard it said that in the game of patriarchy, women are not the opposing team. They are the ball."
I don't know who originally said this quote, but it is brilliant, and related to far more than merely the damsel in distress trope. In fact this is related to the whole "dating game", which which many men promote obscene and ridiculous theories about "alpha males", "friend zones" and other such nonsense. The idea that a man's worth is judged by how much sex he's having, and how desirable the women he's having sex with are seen by the average man. In societies' dating game, women are treated as a possession of value depending on their looks and number of sexual contacts. Which is extremely predatory and sad, but that's a topic for another time.

I also agree with her claim that not all damsels are created equal. And Zelda's role in Wind Waker is one of the more gender forward in the Zelda games. And indeed, Wind Waker is one of the better Zelda games in terms of gender representation. Also containing characters like Medli. Tetra and Medli are awesome. And have a decent amount of female agency, subverting the trope a bit.

And as she states, and I agree again and have already stated my reasons for why, the problem isn't so much of showing women as having weakness or flaws. But of ripping the ability and agency of female characters, often even ones who are canonically stated to be capable, for that of male leads. It should also be noted that this trope and the problems involved in it, are heavily related to the fact that women in games are underrepresented in general. The damsel in distress trope rips away the empowerment from female characters much in the way that publishers often try to rip away female representation from developers. Remember, Jim Sterling's point about magazine covers and so forth.

It is also good to see the contrast between female and male characters who are dis-empowered presented. The problem isn't that female characters are shown to be in compromising positions in games. In plenty of games, male characters are captured, incapacitated, and so forth. But in contrast with the damsel in distress trope, male characters are typically allowed some kind of agency in their own escape.

Later, here's the part I might take the most issue with, if anything. What she's doing is showing how the tropes are around, especially helped by many remakes. However, I think it comes off a bit counter-intuitive to her point about still being able to enjoy games with sexism in them. Overall I don't disagree, I love HD remakes, even if classic games had some sexist issues. And I'm a retro gamer in general. That being said, it does make me realize how new generation are going to continue to be exposed to the same old tropes. In this case, though, I would have broke away from the traditional example, and shown more modern games with the damsel in distress trope.

That is about the only decision in her video that I disagree with. Really.

So, I'm sorry I'm not sorry. Because she's right and I completely agree with her. Also, one common criticism of her video is that she's "playing captain obvious". And I agree that, yes, most of the stuff in her video should not be mindblowingly new to most people. Her points should be obvious. However, given how many people defensively and viciously disagree with her, I would say that stating the obvious is still quite important, because many people clearly do not see that her points are true.
 

Blade_125

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Good post, but I don't think you will find much support here. Generally here people get very defensive on any attacks on games. I understand why as it's hard to look past the upfront argument.

But I will state that while her videos are well done, she along with everyone else misses the real point. Games are a symptom, movies are a symptom, books are a symptom. All of these cultural issues are simply a reflection of societies views. It is important to understand how these issues are reflected in culture, but only so we can see the results.

A year ago or so I saw a movie called Miss Representation. It was a good movie that really looked at why society is as it is. It's always better to look at the root causes of issues.

And I am glad someone else can recognize the hypocrisy from Thunderfoot. He may be smart, but he is clueless on this issue. I had to unsubscribe from him as I cannot tolerate hypocrites (this being in his arguments against Anita using the same tactics he berates creationists on).
 

Erttheking

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Quick question? Why? Why is this woman getting so much attention? She made a kickstarter and a youtube series, why are we paying so much attention to her? Is she really that important? Come on.
 

IceForce

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OP, you wouldn't happen to be after thread badges here, by chance?
erttheking said:
Quick question? Why? Why is this woman getting so much attention? She made a kickstarter and a youtube series, why are we paying so much attention to her? Is she really that important? Come on.
Apparently she's pretty important, with the way she can rile-up people on forums that would otherwise have nothing to do with her.
 

Gameguy20100

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erttheking said:
Quick question? Why? Why is this woman getting so much attention? She made a kickstarter and a youtube series, why are we paying so much attention to her? Is she really that important? Come on.
Your guess Is as good as mine I wouldn't have even known about her If Bhaalspawn hadn't mentioned her In 1 of his videos.
 

Sam17

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Why do people feel the need to start threads with "So, " it looks messy and is downright annoying to read
 

anthony87

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You agree with the video.....

So?

Why couldn't you just post your agreement in one of the existing threads related to the damn thing? Assuming you're not badge-fishing of course.
 

Laser Priest

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And you do realize that she wouldn't get this much attention if you people would just bloody ignore her, right?

I guarantee you more than half of her views are gamers up in arms to defend gaming from some idiot on youtube who isn't a threat to gaming to begin with.

EDIT: Nevermind, misread shit.

And no, she's an idiot.
 

Ilikemilkshake

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I agree with most of what she says, for the simple fact that most of what she says are statements and not opinions.
It's a shame that the backlash against her is so vicious really, considering how tame and uneventful what she's saying actually is.
 

VoidWanderer

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The thing I don't get, is why does it feel like she is blaming us, the players?

I mean when I play a game with rescue person X, my thoughts aren't "Oh goodie, I get to get some", but I need to save Person X because of Y.

In the Mario games, you are playing a newcomer to the land who has found out that the Princess has been kidnapped and the kidnapper turned the villagers into bricks. So if I was to ever play the Mario games, I am not rescuing a damsel in distress. I am going after someone who has been taken by someone with powers greater than the people she was protecting. Anita immediately assumes that the Princess never tries to escape. But how can you prove this. Princess Peach might be trying to escape as you try to find out what is going on. Is it 'damsel in distress-y'? Yes, but can you prove that Peach isn't trying to escape her serial stalker?

The thing that bothered me most about Anita's video, was how lacklustre things felt. Anita mentions that the differences of strength between male and females as an orchestrated social myth, and given the context of trying escape from a kidnapper, I figure she was comparing athletic abilities... But if it's a myth, why is there a difference between Men's and Women's Olympic and World Records?

Does Anita raise points? Kind of. Are the consumers the ones to blame for the state of videogames... Not really.

If Anita wants to make a step towards her views, why not target the magazines which state how to have better sex by pleasing the men in the relationship... Surely that does more harm than good?
 

Ilikemilkshake

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Blade_125 said:
And I am glad someone else can recognize the hypocrisy from Thunderfoot. He may be smart, but he is clueless on this issue. I had to unsubscribe from him as I cannot tolerate hypocrites (this being in his arguments against Anita using the same tactics he berates creationists on).
I too was really disappointed in him, I liked his science videos and his stuff on creationism but then to see him turn around and go on some crazy anti feminist crusade was pretty disappointing... If he didn't use all the bullshit tactics I could've just respectfully disagreed with him but no, he proved himself a hypocrite. In fact I'd almost think it was satire in the way he conducted those videos but he's too convincing.
 

Keymik

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My biggest issue is that alot of her examples are from old games. Sure the tropes within them still exist to some extend but alot of these games are from another time. It's like old movies with racism in them, things were different back then.

I personally think videogames are getting better and better at giving equal attention to both genders, but maybe i'm just a glass half full type of person.

One example being Saints Row 2.. Gender was a slider in that game.. A slider.. Doesn't get more gender equal than that.
 

Tohuvabohu

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OP. I'm not trying to seem like a jerk here by asking this. But why does this deserve a thread?

Anyway.

EstrogenicMuscle said:
So, I'm sorry I'm not sorry. Because she's right and I completely agree with her. Also, one common criticism of her video is that she's "playing captain obvious". And I agree that, yes, most of the stuff in her video should not be mindblowingly new to most people. Her points should be obvious. However, given how many people defensively and viciously disagree with her, I would say that stating the obvious is still quite important, because many people clearly do not see that her points are true.
I watched her video to see what all the hub-bub was about.

The video itself and the statements she presented weren't bad. But, she didn't offer anything new to this discussion that wasn't already said before without a 150,000$ kickstarter backing it. The only reaction I mustered when it ended was along the lines of "Well, yeah." then I turned away and didn't think much else of it. I was pretty underwhelmed by it. I only watched it once and haven't seen it again.

I think it's obvious the only reason she is so 'relevant' is because of the entirely gamer-created shitstorm surrounding her. If gamers were at all capable of ignoring people they feel are attacking their games, she'd probably still be some seldom-mentioned/obscure youtube channel. But here we are. One bigass shitstorm (that was probably directly responsible for the success of her kickstarter in the first place) and 150,000$ dollars later.

Disappointed with gamers, unimpressed with her video. A generally unremarkable situation all-around, I think.

I know she's supposed to release more videos, so maybe she'll offer something better next time around.
 

AlexWinter

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That's nice. I also agree that the damsels in distress trope also exists. There are also many games that subvert it.

There's sexism in games. I don't think that specific trope really contributes to it much though. For example, if the damsel in distress isn't a character but something that happens to a character then does this mean that a game must have no instances of a female needing help for it to avoid being sexist?

For example, Tifa in FF7 is a badass pretty much the whole way through and the instant she needs help the game is sexist for using the damsel in distress trope? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here. If someone is captured, regardless of whether they need help or not, their loved ones are still going to try to help them. I don't really see how that's sexist. Why isn't it the same when another, male character needs help?

I think her Zelda example irked me too. Zelda's been pretty heroic in most of the games. In OOT you basically work for her in the first half of the game. She's avoided capture for years and years and when she comes out of her Sheik costume she gets captured. WELL OF COURSE SHE DOES SHE'S JUST TAKEN OFF HER DISGUISE! It's nothing to do with her looking like a typical damsel. Zelda's awesome in WW, TP and SS too. So I wouldn't really count her as a damsel in distress at all.

I just don't really see how the damsel in distress thing is sexist unless the example is a character that has a complete personality change when they're captured but seeing as this isn't shown most of the time I wouldn't say it's a big deal. I just don't see this trope being played in a sexist fashion in games. I would have preferred she start with the objectification of women in video games.
 

Pseudonym2

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I don't know how many people remember in the 80's when older TV shows were being syndicated on television. The obvious problem is that many of them were ideological noxious particularly Amos and Andy. Some argued that times had passed while others claimed not having Amos and Andy on the air was an example of times passing. Personally I think old shows, movies, games, ect should come with a disclaimer saying this stuff is not OK.
 

everythingbeeps

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erttheking said:
Quick question? Why? Why is this woman getting so much attention? She made a kickstarter and a youtube series, why are we paying so much attention to her? Is she really that important? Come on.
Because she conned people out of thousands of dollars to make feminist videos about video games. Which to me is hilariously ironic, considering how many people make videos like that without begging for a dime.
 

magicmonkeybars

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EstrogenicMuscle said:
In this case, though, I would have broke away from the traditional example, and shown more modern games with the damsel in distress trope.
That is what her second video is supposed to be about, the present day DiD, I'm sure it'll be posted within... well whenever it's done I suppose.
 

MysticSlayer

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EstrogenicMuscle said:
Dinosaur Planet
There is nothing wrong with this example at all. And I agree entirely, the way in which Dinosaur Planet had a strong woman originally, only to eventually play second fiddle to Fox McCloud, is saddening to me. And an evidence of sexism that has long been in the industry, and still exists today. There has been recent talk about "Remember Me" and articles from Penny Arcade [http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/remember-mes-surprising-connection-to-facebook-and-why-its-protagonist-had], about the industry purposely pushing female characters out of the way for male ones. Crystal, is a strong female character we lost because of this industry practice, and I lament it.
Maybe it's just me, but I think this is more due to Nintendo's general business practices than some industry practice of pushing female characters aside. Nintendo has a history with placing their popular characters (especially Mario) into another game. In this instance, it was Fox McCloud, and let's face it, people want to play as Fox in Star Fox game, not some mysterious character they've never heard of, or is the Sonic community the only one like that? Could they have handled it better? Yeah, probably, but I think saying that they did it just to push a female character aside because she's female is sort of a stretch.
 

SonOfVoorhees

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Complaining that games are sexist is like saying handbags are sexist to men. Yes both sexists should be equal in both games and fashion, but its not. Both men and woman are sexualised in games. Woman are seen as sexy, men are muscle bound heros. Its been this way for years. Its this way in games and in movies. Thing about games are you can be more stylised due to it being graphical and not based on a real person. Is using a really attractive woman to play a geek in a movie any different to a big breasted character in a game? Both are unrealistic. If you asked men about female characters in games, im sure you would be surprised. For me Lara in the latest game was awesome, i could connect to her and felt for her when bad things happened to her. I played as a female Shepard in ME trilogy and i could connect with her as a person. Its personality and situation over the figure.

Immature losers like big breasted characters because they have never seen a real woman before. Also its part of the male dna to see big breasts as a thing. Though most men know the difference between pretend fantasy woman and real woman. The same as woman know the difference between muscled 6 pack freaks and normal man.

We all have fantasies. An some games play to that with the characters being overly sexy or muscled. But this doesnt men or woman are sexist. Nor that games are sexist. Although i admit, in reality, the woman would have way more armour if they were warriors. :)
 

SonOfVoorhees

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magicmonkeybars said:
EstrogenicMuscle said:
In this case, though, I would have broke away from the traditional example, and shown more modern games with the damsel in distress trope.
That is what her second video is supposed to be about, the present day DiD, I'm sure it'll be posted within... well whenever it's done I suppose.
Never got this really. Men like being the hero and rescuing the girl. Its not about the woman as in her being weak or pathetic. Its just that, as a man, we like to rescue the victim and men love woman. Some say its sexist but then we, as men, have a mum, sisters, girlfriend, daughters and wives. We, as men, would rescue and save female members of our family and friends. Its not sexism to think woman need to be saved. In Tomb Raider you saved your male friends multiple times and never once did any men comment negatively on this. Its saving the person you love, whether friend or family. Not because she is female......thats how i see it anyway.