So i finally got around to Dragon Age II, not very happy with Bioware.

[crazygameguy4ever]

don't know why people hate Dragon Age 2

I explained the majority of the reasons in the post above yours In short, a combination of terrible level design, less options than the first game, a switch from tactical combat to more action-rpg style, disjointed story and more. Read above to learn more.

the switch to action rpg style combat (instead of the tactical combat of the other games) was one of the things i like the most about the game when i got it for my ps3

 

[Wizardly-K9]

Am I the only one who actually liked DA2? Even the reused caves, it almost gave an artificial sense of getting to know the area in and around Kirkwall better over the years, since there are several years of adventuring in between the chapters. Really, am I the only one who thought about it this way?

No, you aren't. I liked it too. More so than Dragon Age: Origins in fact.

 

[EternallyBored]

Am I the only one who actually liked DA2? Even the reused caves, it almost gave an artificial sense of getting to know the area in and around Kirkwall better over the years, since there are several years of adventuring in between the chapters. Really, am I the only one who thought about it this way?

Er what? even if you discount the backtracking you do to go to the same locations between acts, the game uses the exact same map map except with a single path blocked off by a boulder for two entirely different locations numerous times, and that has absolutely nothing to do with getting to know the area better and the time jumps between acts. There are a lot of levels in two entirely different locations that are virtually identical, the time jumps have nothing to do with that.

 

[spartan231490]

So last week I grabbed DAII off EA's Origin thinking I'd see if it was as bad as everyone said or if the hate is just because of the fact that you can only play Human + the dialogue wheel.

I didn't like it one bit.

Just a quick rundown of the most glaring errors.

* Can't zoom out and get a proper tactical view like in DA:O
* Enemies continue jumping down to fight, meaning no encounter is as it looks, you constantly have to recheck around yourself to make sure the encounter is FINALLY done. The constant waves are made even worse by the lack of a tactical camera.
* No coherent story, randomly connecting three events together at the end just feels unsatisfying as there was no major plot goal. I'm actually shocked at the plot here, is this actually Bioware?
* Party member interaction feels less fun, it's mostly stripped right out of the game.
* RE-USED LEVELS, holy shit. I'm actually mad, like straight up fucking mad. How can re-use of all these assets be justified in any way? The one golden rule of levels is no copy/paste. The most insipid level design to come out of Bioware and I played the fade.

That's straight up put a sour taste in my mouth for Bioware and I was planning on getting Inquisition but now I'm second guessing it. I mean, how can they justify this product going on the market? I can't.

Were you not there for the huge backlash when the game was released? People were pissed. I, for one, won't even touch DA: 3 until and unless I KNOW that, at least, the continuous enemy wave thing is over. It makes true strategic play impossible. Even meaningful tactics are damn close to impossible.

 

[Augustine]

* RE-USED LEVELS, holy shit. I'm actually mad, like straight up fucking mad. How can re-use of all these assets be justified in any way? The one golden rule of levels is no copy/paste. The most insipid level design to come out of Bioware and I played the fade.

Funny enough, the first Mass Effect actually did exactly the same thing. With the exception of I think one or two quests which involved the Rachni, there are only roughly three or four actual area designs for side-quests. The most common is the base design used for the side-quest on Luna where you're shutting down the rogue AI; The exact same design is used in a vast majority of the other side-quests found within the game, with the only differences being the placement of boxes. The other primary base design is the one that functions more like a warehouse, for instance like the one on the planet where you can find Wrex's family armor. Then there are spaceships, which often use the exact same layout as the one used in Garrus' companion quest to kill the doctor that got away from him years earlier; Same design is used for almost every other ship you board.

There are maybe two or three other layouts which aren't excessively reused because they're designed for specific quests, but the vast majority are literally just copy-pasted. The only difference is that you're driving around on all of the rocky terrain planets (and I'm sure a more enterprising individual than myself could point out similarities between many of them as well), but I don't think that would really excuse reused level design.

The copy/paste of levels in ME1 was mitigated by the solid encounters and tactical combat. Rooms may have been the same but the combat kept you on your toes. In DA2 I see a foundation of a potentially good, dynamic combat system being squandered completely by the implementation. 80% of combats in that game were identical.
I would say, I'd enjoy DA2 a lot more with all action cut out. Characters were interesting, and they were the only thing that kept me going. The rest was meaningless filler.

 

[tmande2nd]

Is there an echo in the room or is it just me?

Yeah DA2 failed pretty hard, but that is what you get when you rush a game out to fast.
Not that EA cares since it still made money.

 

[Keystone]

To add to what a few other pro-DA2 people said, I really enjoyed the game. Even the flaws, most especially the re-used levels, the non-traditional story structure, and the forced decision at the end, were interesting. For the re-used levels, I actually kind of liked the general idea that you're keeping an eye on the same general area that you moved to years ago. In regards to the story, I actually thought a semi-connected story was a lot more like real life, where you're involved in a mix of events that do and don't ultimately add up to some kind of climactic resolution, but which events matter are not clear while you're experiencing the events. For the forced decision at the end, I thought they could have handled it a little better, but Anders really a did a good job of making you pick a side, and I actually thought this was an interesting way of adding some realism to the genre. Unfortunately, I do think these kinds of decisions where both choices make you feel kinda dirty is pretty realistic.

I actually really liked party interaction, but more than that, I really enjoyed ability to shape the personality of the main character. I would argue that no game has done a better job of this for a voiced main character, ever.

In general, I thought DA2 was a really good reconstruction of the whole genre. Combat could be pretty annoying though, and I thought it was in some ways a step backwards from DA:O.

 

[Shocksplicer]

I actually found the subversion of the bog-standard "Let's save the world!" plot to be quite refreshing, but I'm one of the few.
Otherwise, congratulations on having the exact same opinion just about everyone else did 3 whole years ago.

 

[Gankytim]

I've stood by this statement and I'll state it again because I like to hear myself speak; if Dragon Age II was released under a different name, it would have been considered good to pretty good; not great but not the worst thing to have ever happened to gaming ever that some people seem to treat it as.

I think it'd be considered a mess at best. Let's say this wasn't a Bioware game. Would people really use that statement? I literally can find nothing they did in this game that makes me stop and think "Oh yeah, that was the right decision."

Say it wasn't Bioware, say it was a company you had no opinion of. Would they really be able to get away with copy/pasting levels, poorly excecuted, boring, unimaginative combat that just boiled down to mini horde modes, and no feeling of an actual end goal in the first two parts of the plot?

If anyone other than Bioware put this game out they'd be laughed clean out of the industry and into bankrupcy and personally I think Bioware should put ideas of a sequel to bed because I honestly doubt after that mess Inquisition is going anywhere good.

 

[putowtin]

SNIP

1st, wecome to the forums
2nd, I'm not having a go at you, some of your points are valid but...
Woo! Another person who doesn't like DAII.
Woo! Another person focusing on the negatives instead of taking the series as a whole and seeing the important plot development.

I think Bioware should put ideas of a sequel to bed because I honestly doubt after that mess Inquisition is going anywhere good.

So folks who genuinely enjoyed the game and are fans of the series and the world that Bioware have created should have the next installment snatched away from them? Look I'm sure there are some games that you love and I can't stand but I'm not going to demand their sequels are cancelled, I ust won't play them. And again I know the game is flawed, but there have been far worse games that don't seem to get as much stick as this one does.

Conclusion: I love, nay forget that, love the story, characters and some of the game play, leading me to be more that satisfied by this installment in a larger story.

Subnote, just have to laugh, you've been on the forum five days and one of your badges is from the Dragon Age Inquisition quiz!

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

Huge BioWare fan. Never played Neverwinter, didn't like Baldur's Gate (I gather BG2 is far better), but played through KotOR, Jade Empire, the Mass Effect trilogy and DA:O multiple times - and DA2's one of my favourites from BioWare. Flawed and rushed, sure, but for me it had one of most interesting and engaging narratives they've done.

...why, I [don't] hear you ask? Because it's as much the narrative of a city, as it is Hawke's place within it. It's about a city divided, torn apart by cultural and social schisms and heading irrevocably towards chaos. It has its eye-rollingly daft moments, sure, but its narrative focus is far more progressive than DA or ME, and for that I love it (well, that and the mostly great writing).

 

[Gankytim]

Snipped to hell and back.

I'm not having a go at you either, opinions are opinions. People can disagree and still be adult about it. Though if I'd had bought it at launch and paid $60 dollars I'd be a lot more hostile than the bargain I got it for.

I enjoyed Origins immenseley, I played it through 10 times and explored every bit of content and DLC it had, front to back. I consider myself a huge fan of the world Bioware created. But to have something this horrible come out of that world just feels akward. It's like if someone painted a masterpiece then drew a stick figure. A well drawn stick figure, but still a stick figure, a barebones imitation of the first painting with a lot of the life of the masterpiece taken out of it.

Maybe I'm being a tad drastic in saying they shouldn't develop a sequel, but I'm not paying for it at launch you can be sure of that. And I won't be paying untill I've read honest reviews (not IGN or Kotaku 9.5 average for every game). Reviews from CRITICS not reviews from FANS.

There are some good qualities, the Arishok is well written, the whole look of the game is a big step up from Origins in terms of art direction, it looks like actual fantasy rather than a medieval world with some monsters in it so that's a bonus. I don't like that most of the Qunari share a single model but it does get across the point that they live in a uniform society. Plus exploring the more foreign culture of the Qunari was interesting especially their treatment of Mages.

That's where my compliments toward the game end however, and the one thing that's missing in these compliments is mentions of advancements in GAMEPLAY. Which, despite all other nice things which compliment a game, is the number one priority for any game. It needs to feel natural in order to not leave behind a sour taste. Just the simple removal of the ability to zoom out changed the game immensely and made it feel incredibly akward, plus the constant spawning enemies. The game falls apart under scrutiny in these regards.

A sequel should expand upon the best aspects of the previous games gameplay, but this installment hamstringed them.

I still stand by my argument though, that if this wasn't a Dragon Age it would have been laughed out of the gate.

Side note: I know, just took the quiz to have a laugh, a bit innacurate considering this thread. But when have online quizes ever been accurate to perfection?

 

[Ed130 The Vanguard]

Ahh DA2, in some ways I liked the game, it broke me out of the 'fanboy' mentality and saved me quite a bit of dosh in the long run avoiding games like ME3.

But yes, even on its own merits it isn't that good. Compared to what Dragon Age: Origins was (a love letter to older RPG's of yesteryear) it was a fucking disaster.

My advice for DA3 is to wait. Not for professional reviews but for the average joes to come out and state whether Bioware has well and truly gone to the dogs.

 

[Ubiquitous Duck]

snip

Dragon Age 2 quite famously had a ludicrously truncated development time. Estimates top off at 12-14 months and are as low as 8 months. Goes a long way towards explaining the heavy asset reuse, and the fact that there are a lot of plot elements that seem to only thinly hang together, with a lot of pacing issues. In spite of this, they managed to release a functioning and for the most part enjoyable title, that didn't completely shame the franchise. Bioware should probably be lauded for salvaging what they could from an almost no-win situation. The developers run by EA haven't always been so lucky [http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/ultima/ultima10.htm].

Dragon Age: Inquisition has been in development for 3.5 years. That in no way, shape or form is a guarantee that it will represent a return to form, but it demonstrates a much better show of faith by EA and a much better opportunity for Bioware to make good on this opportunity for redemption.

I am surprised that this one has managed to be dug up again, think this game has been beaten to death enough (coming from a guy who completely loathed it, still my worst game of all time, opposite of DA:O, my favourite).

But as BloatedGuppy has covered above, it really was just a result of a really small development time, due to pressure from EA on Bioware to make a really quick turnaround - presumably as a way to cash-in on DA:O fans further, before they forgot about(logic?) the game.

I don't believe that Bioware are to blame. It was just the unreasonable pressures laid upon them.

Hopefully Inquisition will be better, but they have lost my pre-order (I'm sure they are hurting cause of that one!) for it, for sure.

 

[DementedSheep]

So last week I grabbed DAII off EA's Origin thinking I'd see if it was as bad as everyone said or if the hate is just because of the fact that you can only play Human + the dialogue wheel.

I didn't like it one bit.

Just a quick rundown of the most glaring errors.

* Can't zoom out and get a proper tactical view like in DA:O
* Enemies continue jumping down to fight, meaning no encounter is as it looks, you constantly have to recheck around yourself to make sure the encounter is FINALLY done. The constant waves are made even worse by the lack of a tactical camera.
* No coherent story, randomly connecting three events together at the end just feels unsatisfying as there was no major plot goal. I'm actually shocked at the plot here, is this actually Bioware?
* Party member interaction feels less fun, it's mostly stripped right out of the game.
* RE-USED LEVELS, holy shit. I'm actually mad, like straight up fucking mad. How can re-use of all these assets be justified in any way? The one golden rule of levels is no copy/paste. The most insipid level design to come out of Bioware and I played the fade.

That's straight up put a sour taste in my mouth for Bioware and I was planning on getting Inquisition but now I'm second guessing it. I mean, how can they justify this product going on the market? I can't.

Were you not there for the huge backlash when the game was released? People were pissed. I, for one, won't even touch DA: 3 until and unless I KNOW that, at least, the continuous enemy wave thing is over. It makes true strategic play impossible. Even meaningful tactics are damn close to impossible.

There was a huge backlash when the game came out, there was (and still is) also a huge number of apologists like with Fallout 3 though.

Also, these games are actually shittier on their own merits.

Dragon Age 2 at it's best.

Ganky, if there's a backlash against Inquisition, don't buy it. Seriously.

Every time I think of maybe buying DA2 I get reminded of that stupid line from the demo and remember why I decided against it in the first place. "humorous" hawke acts like their in la la land with no understanding of what is going on at all.
Besides terrible dialogue it looked hideous and had enemies exploding all over the place.

 

[Ed130 The Vanguard]

Ahh DA2, in some ways I liked the game, it broke me out of the 'fanboy' mentality and saved me quite a bit of dosh in the long run avoiding games like ME3.

But yes, even on its own merits it isn't that good. Compared to what Dragon Age: Origins was (a love letter to older RPG's of yesteryear) it was a fucking disaster.

My advice for DA3 is to wait. Not for professional reviews but for the average joes to come out and state whether Bioware has well and truly gone to the dogs.

The average joes who also said that the ending to Mass Effect 3 ruined the entirety of the franchise? I get that "professional" reviewers are often full of shit. Random people throwing their opinion in like it's fact is far worse though.

Unfortunately said shit throwers tend to find more actual flaws then paid reviewers and while some can be considered petty I trust them far more then the whitewashing that permeates many sites.

Depressing isn't it?

 

[Amaror]

Snip

Well, yes. My point is that if the "golden rule" of level design is to never copy-paste, then Mass Effect is every bit as guilty as Dragon Age II, and yet never gets knocked for it. Oh yeah, people complain about the Mako in general all the time, but I think I've only ever seen two other people aside from myself on these forums ever even mention the fact that most of the bases in the game are copy-pasted from other places in the game.

Well that one wasn't really true. The "golden rule" of leven design is to copy and paste.
No game exists were there isn't a copy paste of assets, it would not be feasible in the slightest. The problem with DA 2 was how lazy it was.
Mod makers do better jobs most of the time.
In most reused areas they didn't even try to hide the fact that it was reused.
It wouldn't have been too difficult.
Just switch some textures in houses, so that you only see doors that exist, you can mix and match background and environment in different outside areas to hide the fact that your reusing assets. Or you can just drag some models around, like rocks, or lamps or whatever.
But it was even too lazy to do those simple things.