So I'm kind of confused about what an "Ableist" exactly means.
- Thread starter Spider RedNight
- Start date
I've worked quite a few jobs thanks to mental illness, which has also screwed me big time in today's job world. Its so damn hard for me to find a job because of a long and erratic work history. Thankfully I have a fallback position of PC repair that at least keeps the bills from piling up but since 2008 that once-lucrative job has lost a lot of the profit.Corey Schaff said:
I'm a hard-working employee but things tend to end up not in my favor by the end, mostly because the illness eventually gets the better of me and trashes whatever goodwill I've built up.
I've also been on pretty much every drug therapy not contraindicated for my particular brand of crossed-wires, and none of them have done the job in mitigating the symptoms that are generally the cause of job-loss. Its hard when you're one of the rare people who get the reverse effects of medication (uppers are downers, downers = uppers, etc.) and also get the side effects more often than most.
Best mitigation techniques I have found make it near-impossible to work because, as you put it, I need the ability to take days to deal with the issues and work when I feel decent enough to deal with it.
Lady Larunai said:
You do realize that hate crime isn't the only form of racism right? There's also just ya know...being a jackass? That isn't exactly a crime, but it happens fairly often.
Yes, unless by underreported you just mean "It's like all crime, I use words because I like the sound of them. Pear. Peeeaaaaaar."MarsAtlas said:
Did someone not read what they posted? Find me "Hate Crime" in that link.MarsAtlas said:
Anyway, this is where I get off. Hostility and not reading your own citations? Not worth the time.
And you know what the worst about that is? It undermines the 'cause' (and I use that word carefully) of disabled people, so they're shooting themselves and others in the foot with that. I 'luckily' (it still sucks a lot) only have a mild mental handicap (Asperger's, and a very mild case at that) but I already notice the effects of it and it frustrates the hell out of me.Zontar said:
I mean, ableism is godawfully real, seriously I'm already dreading the day I have to enter the labour market. But thanks to fucknuggets who just throw it around like there's no tomorrow it barely gets taken seriously any more! Of course, I just as well blame people who use said fucknuggets as an excuse to be intellectually lazy and not look past extremists so that they can justify displaying jerkwad behavior.
Pfew, well that was a rant... Safe to say that it's an object a little closer to my heart than most. It's a pain in the ass to be either coddled, not being taken seriously or anything else along those lines. Especially because my handicap is pretty invisible. It's a hard time to make people understand it as is, and all this crap is only making it worse.
It's like racism but against handicapped people.
As every other -ism, it's grossly exploited on ze internets.
As every other -ism, it's grossly exploited on ze internets.
No, it is not. Percentages only map comparative levels of occurrence within a given set. If I were to apply the argument you have laid out to, say, Alzheimer's disease, I would not be permitted to discuss the symptoms Alzheimer's patients incur nor the level of suffering inflicted on them and their caregivers; I would only be allowed to compare the number of people who die directly of Alzheimer's disease--that is, death caused purely by the shrinking and hardening of the brain, and not of any of the infections that mercifully end an Alzheimer's patient's life before the disease can--and conclude that Alzheimer's disease is not a problem because it only accounts for 0.1%* of all illness-related deaths.Lady Larunai said:
I reject such logic entirely, because at best, it is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how to measure and categorize problems, and at worst it is an attempt to deliberately manipulate data in order to minimize and invalidate others' experiences in pursuit of a shameless agenda.
*EDIT: Or whatever the actual percentage is; who cares.
Thanks everyone for the answers and explanations~
I would say I was emotionally fueled at the time that I started this thread but I realise that I wasn't and it was an honest mistake on my part to only include "mental disability" under what I considered the meaning of ableism (that's what I was talking about so I sort of forgot about other disabilities that moment). So my bad, didn't mean to only say mental disabilities.
Lesson: don't engage in conversation with idiots on deviantArt. Or... anywhere else, I suppose
I would say I was emotionally fueled at the time that I started this thread but I realise that I wasn't and it was an honest mistake on my part to only include "mental disability" under what I considered the meaning of ableism (that's what I was talking about so I sort of forgot about other disabilities that moment). So my bad, didn't mean to only say mental disabilities.
Lesson: don't engage in conversation with idiots on deviantArt. Or... anywhere else, I suppose
Ableism as it is so commonly applied is incorrectly done in the vein of "handi-capable" rhetoric where you can't say that a disability is a disadvantage.
What it should pertain to is actual discrimination against the handicapped but not merely the acknowledgement that being handicapped does have its hurdles and limitations that not being handicapped avoids. People try to apply it to people who don't ascribe to handi-capable rhetoric but that's not the same as actual discrimination against a handicapped person. Like assuming a wheelchair-bound person is dumb or lazy. That's ableist stereotyping. But acknowledging that they're in a wheelchair because of a disability that impairs their mobility isn't ableism.
People go through great lengths to pretend like nothing can ever be wrong with anyone. But that's bullshit. I've got single sided deafness which greatly impairs my enjoyment of parties and ability to correctly hear what someone is saying if I'm not directing my good ear towards them. With enclosed environments if there are multiple sound sources I will eventually start to sweat even if I haven't realized the problem is noise-based. There is no positive in it, there is no "just as capable as a person with two ears" rhetoric. Anyone trying to sell me that shit is just being ignorant of the cost of disabilities in the lives of people that have them. I recently got a pair of bone oscillating headsets and have heard in stereo for the first time in my life. Music is so much more beautiful than people in my place can know without that kind of tech. Maybe the person is disabled themselves and just wants to lie to themselves and to have the world in on the lie too. But that's dishonest. Bet most people would drop that lie in a heartbeat every time they cash a disability check.
What it should pertain to is actual discrimination against the handicapped but not merely the acknowledgement that being handicapped does have its hurdles and limitations that not being handicapped avoids. People try to apply it to people who don't ascribe to handi-capable rhetoric but that's not the same as actual discrimination against a handicapped person. Like assuming a wheelchair-bound person is dumb or lazy. That's ableist stereotyping. But acknowledging that they're in a wheelchair because of a disability that impairs their mobility isn't ableism.
People go through great lengths to pretend like nothing can ever be wrong with anyone. But that's bullshit. I've got single sided deafness which greatly impairs my enjoyment of parties and ability to correctly hear what someone is saying if I'm not directing my good ear towards them. With enclosed environments if there are multiple sound sources I will eventually start to sweat even if I haven't realized the problem is noise-based. There is no positive in it, there is no "just as capable as a person with two ears" rhetoric. Anyone trying to sell me that shit is just being ignorant of the cost of disabilities in the lives of people that have them. I recently got a pair of bone oscillating headsets and have heard in stereo for the first time in my life. Music is so much more beautiful than people in my place can know without that kind of tech. Maybe the person is disabled themselves and just wants to lie to themselves and to have the world in on the lie too. But that's dishonest. Bet most people would drop that lie in a heartbeat every time they cash a disability check.
Oh I got called that once.
This was when I was a teenager, a forum I use to visit had it's own private section. Anyway, there was a member who didn't have access to the private section that was clearly off... Just the stuff that they posted, I wouldn't make the step to say they were Autistic because I don't know that or not but that was the popular concencious. Now inside that private section? They would ruthlessly mock this user. "Oh XYZ is posting again!" they'd go.
XYZ kinda had a bit of heat because they'd occasionally post a Right Winged opinion that didn't gel with the rest of the forum... and keep in mind this is a small forum of about 50 people I suppose? Anyway, one day XYZ makes a post asking why no one on the forum likes them.
Now, this was a dick move but this was just the kind of person I was in my teens, I proceeded to go through the search history and pull out every politically charged post XYZ ever wrote and linked them all into one thread and was all "This is why. Knock this shit off."
This is preceded by this whole forum, I won't say turning on me because it turned out none of them really liked me at all, turning on me. Calling me ableist. These same people that were saying basically the same thing I did, only I did it publicly. Fucking hypocrites. Maybe it was a dick thing to do, probably was. The people calling me it weren't saints either, not by a long shot. But ya know, fuck 'em.
But the moral is, like... Why are you even going out of your way to disagree with this guy? Anyone who subscribes to that kind of call out culture "SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!" bullshit isn't worth the energy. They're the kinda folk that if you make a poor decision in your life will label you and brand you for life, and deny you the capacity to grow and change. Just block the idiot and move on.
This was when I was a teenager, a forum I use to visit had it's own private section. Anyway, there was a member who didn't have access to the private section that was clearly off... Just the stuff that they posted, I wouldn't make the step to say they were Autistic because I don't know that or not but that was the popular concencious. Now inside that private section? They would ruthlessly mock this user. "Oh XYZ is posting again!" they'd go.
XYZ kinda had a bit of heat because they'd occasionally post a Right Winged opinion that didn't gel with the rest of the forum... and keep in mind this is a small forum of about 50 people I suppose? Anyway, one day XYZ makes a post asking why no one on the forum likes them.
Now, this was a dick move but this was just the kind of person I was in my teens, I proceeded to go through the search history and pull out every politically charged post XYZ ever wrote and linked them all into one thread and was all "This is why. Knock this shit off."
This is preceded by this whole forum, I won't say turning on me because it turned out none of them really liked me at all, turning on me. Calling me ableist. These same people that were saying basically the same thing I did, only I did it publicly. Fucking hypocrites. Maybe it was a dick thing to do, probably was. The people calling me it weren't saints either, not by a long shot. But ya know, fuck 'em.
But the moral is, like... Why are you even going out of your way to disagree with this guy? Anyone who subscribes to that kind of call out culture "SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!" bullshit isn't worth the energy. They're the kinda folk that if you make a poor decision in your life will label you and brand you for life, and deny you the capacity to grow and change. Just block the idiot and move on.
Squanchy said:
The edit button is there for a reason, yo. Not really kind to go ahead and repost something that a person decided to pull.
Refusing to change what you have written once you realize a moment of anger made you break the rules you made a promise to obey is not balls. It's disrespect to yourself, to the community, and to the moderators. I personally think someone who admits fault and takes action to correct it deserves to be commended, not accused of cowardice.Squanchy said:
See, Tumblr is like meatgrinder of oppression.
Terms and phrases go in, oppressed snowflakes come out. If the word had any grounding in reality it left about the same time the Tumblr crowd got ahold of it.
Anyone watch chicken run? "Chickens go in, pies come out." Well, just picture the Chickens as phrases and the pies as the steaming aftermath.
That being said, the word itself to paraphrase describes discrimination based upon disability - although I feel as if this is a strange and slippery slope to walk simply upon the grounds of it being impossible to not discriminate upon the basis of mental and physical capability. For example, you're not going to hire someone with one leg to cycle people around a town, or a man with one arm to work complex factory machines.
Terms and phrases go in, oppressed snowflakes come out. If the word had any grounding in reality it left about the same time the Tumblr crowd got ahold of it.
Anyone watch chicken run? "Chickens go in, pies come out." Well, just picture the Chickens as phrases and the pies as the steaming aftermath.
That being said, the word itself to paraphrase describes discrimination based upon disability - although I feel as if this is a strange and slippery slope to walk simply upon the grounds of it being impossible to not discriminate upon the basis of mental and physical capability. For example, you're not going to hire someone with one leg to cycle people around a town, or a man with one arm to work complex factory machines.
It's a term that means the punch behind the word "retardation" is now castrated and considered offensive.
The fun thing about disability language is that's it's in a constant arms race with ITSELF.
First it was dumb, then it was deaf, then it was hearing impaired, then it was audibly-challenged, then it was "soft of hearing"...
First it was retardation, then it was mental disability, then it was "special"...
First it was lame, then it was crippled, then it was handicapped, then it was disabled...
It doesn't matter how often you change the word, it will continue to be used to describe something in a negative manner because disabilities ARE negative things. Never seen a one-legged person do a one-two step, a blind person won't be able to describe the colour of the get away vehicle, a person with downs wouldn't ever become an elected official.
It's not because of discrimination. It's because they are LITERALLY incCAPABLE of performing those tasks as well as others.
No matter how we try and pretty it up, some people have issues and hurdles they may never overcome. The investment in technology and clinics to assist or negate these impairments is a wonderful thing. But not wanting a person with severe autism symptoms to babysit your children isn't ableism.
The fun thing about disability language is that's it's in a constant arms race with ITSELF.
First it was dumb, then it was deaf, then it was hearing impaired, then it was audibly-challenged, then it was "soft of hearing"...
First it was retardation, then it was mental disability, then it was "special"...
First it was lame, then it was crippled, then it was handicapped, then it was disabled...
It doesn't matter how often you change the word, it will continue to be used to describe something in a negative manner because disabilities ARE negative things. Never seen a one-legged person do a one-two step, a blind person won't be able to describe the colour of the get away vehicle, a person with downs wouldn't ever become an elected official.
It's not because of discrimination. It's because they are LITERALLY incCAPABLE of performing those tasks as well as others.
No matter how we try and pretty it up, some people have issues and hurdles they may never overcome. The investment in technology and clinics to assist or negate these impairments is a wonderful thing. But not wanting a person with severe autism symptoms to babysit your children isn't ableism.
"Honest" is not a synonym for "appropriate" nor "correct." By the metric you have laid out, if my initial and therefore honest reaction to a pedestrian flipping me off is to pop his skull like a zit under my tires, I have been somehow morally deficient by choosing to ignore that impulse, take my foot off the gas, and let the pedestrian continue to exist.valium said:
I will no longer discuss the issue, though, as I believe it is in bad taste to discuss a matter for which a user has already been disciplined.
Ableism is treating someone with a disability as less human because of the disability.
As much as this thread might tell you otherwise, we do it very often. We are programmed to treat someone with mental or physical disabilities as if they are stupid or fragile, and often that can be insulting and demeaning (especially when said disability does not actually make them mentally deficient or weak enough where such perspectives would be warranted). There is actually a practical application for this: many people with mental disabilities can function better (relatively) if they aren't treated as if they are incapable of such functioning. For example, autistic children will be higher functioning later in life if you treat them like actual children and not as idiots that can't think for themselves. So that is what ableism is.
That said, there is a fine line between being ableist and being honest. These disabilities are real and have real effects on the mental and physical capacity of people who suffer from them. Don't expect someone in a wheelchair to be a construction worker, for example. In some ways, it can also be harmful to ignore these conditions and pretend they do not exist.
Like most of these types of -ists, people will fall into one of two camps:
1. Ableism doesn't exist and its just another example of PC run amok
2. Anything remotely negative said about a disabled person makes you Hitler
As in all things, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Long story short, just be a decent person and you likely won't have any trouble.
To your original story about Kylo Ren, I think you made a really good point in that calling Kylo mentally ill both seems to be a misguided attempt to excuse his behaviour and is unfair to people who actually suffer from mental disabilities. So you weren't being ableist, that guy was, if you really wanted to go there. Kylo Ren's only mental issue is being an overly emotional teenager who hates his father (and doesn't that pretty much describe most teenagers?).
As much as this thread might tell you otherwise, we do it very often. We are programmed to treat someone with mental or physical disabilities as if they are stupid or fragile, and often that can be insulting and demeaning (especially when said disability does not actually make them mentally deficient or weak enough where such perspectives would be warranted). There is actually a practical application for this: many people with mental disabilities can function better (relatively) if they aren't treated as if they are incapable of such functioning. For example, autistic children will be higher functioning later in life if you treat them like actual children and not as idiots that can't think for themselves. So that is what ableism is.
That said, there is a fine line between being ableist and being honest. These disabilities are real and have real effects on the mental and physical capacity of people who suffer from them. Don't expect someone in a wheelchair to be a construction worker, for example. In some ways, it can also be harmful to ignore these conditions and pretend they do not exist.
Like most of these types of -ists, people will fall into one of two camps:
1. Ableism doesn't exist and its just another example of PC run amok
2. Anything remotely negative said about a disabled person makes you Hitler
As in all things, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Long story short, just be a decent person and you likely won't have any trouble.
To your original story about Kylo Ren, I think you made a really good point in that calling Kylo mentally ill both seems to be a misguided attempt to excuse his behaviour and is unfair to people who actually suffer from mental disabilities. So you weren't being ableist, that guy was, if you really wanted to go there. Kylo Ren's only mental issue is being an overly emotional teenager who hates his father (and doesn't that pretty much describe most teenagers?).