So I'm playing Darkest Dungeon...

bastardofmelbourne

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...after a long rage-quit hiatus, to check out the new DLC. And I gots OPINIONS.

Now, I preface this by saying that Darkest Dungeon is a wonderful game that I cannot stop playing until the moment when I inevitably get my A-team wiped out while half-asleep at 4am and not paying attention. So the game itself is something unique and lovely. But the new DLC is...unimpressive.

It's a vampire-themed expansion, adding a new enemy roster, a new hero class, a bunch of new bosses and a new mechanic called the Crimson Curse, which is basically vampirism. I was reading about this and thinking to myself, "yeah, I can see how this is going to work," and then inexplicably the game defies my expectations of how it's going to work. Like, in a bad way.

1. The Crimson Curse is essentially an affliction mixed with a disease. It makes your party member act randomly and stress out the party just like an affliction, and it has some pretty massive stat penalties like a disease, one of which is a whopping 10-20% health reduction. It also cannot be cured, or if it can, I haven't found out how yet.

Now, I get that the developers wanted vampirism to be a bad thing that you had to deal with, not a secret advantage you could min-max with. But at the time I'm writing this post, I have twelve heroes with the Curse, and I'd have more if six of them hadn't died of it. Yes; you can die of vampirism, even if the sufferer is in town, if you don't have enough blood vials to feed them. Only special blood vials that drop from the vampire enemies can be used, and their drop rate is atrocious. And the curse spreads like fucking malaria; every one of the new vampire enemies has a special attack that can curse a hero, and I quickly found that the only way to stop my entire roster getting cursed was to only use heroes who were already cursed, and then I had to deal with a) them having a massive HP penalty and b) sometimes randomly starving to death in the middle of a dungeon because they're fussy little shits about what blood they'll eat. Sometimes, if they're in the "Wasting" stage of the curse, they die immediately after entering the dungeon. You spawn in, they go "Whoops!" and explode. No Death's Door; they just die outright.

And I can't prevent this! I don't have enough blood to feed these guys, I can't get more blood without fighting the vampires who spread the curse that makes me need even more blood, and if I send cursed guys out to fight the vampires they just fucking die! Even when I'm doing regular dungeons and trying to avoid fighting the fucking vampires for five minutes, they pop over into other dungeon types and I have to fight them anyway! And to top it all off, if you leave a cursed hero back in town, there's a chance they'll spread the disease to other heroes in town anyway. One hero infected three other heroes with vampirism and then died of starvation, presumably because he spat all the blood back out after drinking it.

The whole system is a tremendously unimaginative clusterfuck. They could've done some interesting stuff with the vampire concept, made it kind of a special trade-off thing like they do with the disorders, the torch-light, or the virtues and afflictions. Instead, it's just a huge debuff that you can't cure and can't avoid getting and which can kill your heroes if a steady supply of blood vials doesn't drop.

2. The Flagellant is a huge missed opportunity. Don't get me wrong, he's a neat hero. But his schtick is basically a combination of many bleed attacks with a couple of more powerful attacks that can't be used until he's below 50% HP and which heal a huge chunk of his health. I figured, for a guy called "the Flagellant" whose attack animation is whipping himself with a flail, that his attacks would have a "deal damage to enemy and self" mechanic, so that you use those attacks until his HP drops and then use one of the more powerful ones to heal him back up. But his regular attacks don't do that, they just apply bleeds. So I'm just using these lacklustre bleed attacks and waiting until an enemy decides to hit the Flagellant hard enough that he can use one of his better attacks. It's weird and unpredictable and kinda dull, to be honest.

3. One of the new additions in the DLC was the option of having more buildings in the Hamlet, which I got excited by and then promptly started scratching my head when I saw the things. They are tremendously expensive, requiring literally hundreds of heirlooms to build. I can't imagine any situation where I would be sitting on that many heirlooms except for when I've already maxed out literally every other building in the Hamlet. Rather than "here are some more building options," it's just "here is a place to dump your excess heirlooms." The buildings themselves are unimpressive; they mostly provide stat buffs to certain classes in three-man groups, with a couple of utility ones; there's one that gives you some free Blood at the start of every week, which would be tremendously useful for me if it didn't cost like eighty fucking busts to build. You can only carry busts in stacks of six. Farming that would take me forever, especially considering that someone turns into a vampire and dies every time I leave the Hamlet.

4. The Baron map! What the fuck is going on here? First, there's the fact that the very first map in the DLC, the one that unlocks the vampires and their new dungeon environment, has a secret boss fight that the game doesn't tell you about until you stumble into it. I can forgive that; that's Darkest Dungeon. But the Baron map is listed as "Epic" in length, and has the unusual trait where you can leave it half-finished and retreat, then return later and pick up where you left off. That's a cool trick, I like it, so what's the problem?

The map is fucking huge. Like, it's four or five times as long as a Long dungeon. I've made five trips in and haven't found the boss yet. It has a lot of dead ends, it has a fog-of-war mechanic that stops you seeing where those dead ends are, and it has a mechanic where you collect coloured keys to open fucking doors. There is a lot of backtracking, a lot of just walking around through areas you'd cleared ten minutes ago, watching as your stress bar climbs and your cursed characters start to wither and die. It's not that it's hard; it's just fucking boring. It's this godawful slog of a mission, and in some brazen oversight by the developers, they don't give you any opportunities to camp like they normally do with long dungeons.

The number of times I've sent my carefully-quarantined team of cursed demi-vampire heroes into the Baron map only to watch the only healer I had just starve and die right out of the gate...it's enough to make a man rage-quit and then go on the internet to complain.

5. Despite having over a dozen heroes cursed with vampirism, I have not yet encountered the new Fanatic roaming boss, who is supposed to turn up to hunt down your vampiroid heroes. His spawn rate may be bugged or reliant on some invisible condition I haven't filled yet.

Anyway. What are the positives? There's some new trinkets, one two for each hero class, that have some backstory hints and neat bonuses. The new art is somehow even better than in the base game; they draw a neat thematic connection between the vampires and blood-sucking insects like mosquitoes and ticks, so the vampires are these shapeshifting half-insect creatures that look cool as balls. To fit the mood, their new environment is a swamp, and one of the new bosses is a goddamn crocodile with insect legs which has a Surinam toad thing going on, where it shoots mosquitoes at you from a bunch of holes on its back. It's creepy as balls.

tl;dr - some DLC came out and Ruined Darkest Dungeon FOREVER, and now I'm not having any fun playing it. I'm seriously considering starting a new save and disabling all the DLC content just so I can get back to actually finishing the fucking thing.
 

Zhukov

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Dec 29, 2009
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Wow, that curse thing sounds incredibly annoying.

You have successfully convinced me to stay the hell away from the DLC.

Shame, the new enemies looked pretty neat.

Then again, I wasn't in any hurry to get back into Darkest Dungeon. There are a lot of things I like about the game (dem character designs, glorious) but they're all overshadowed by the way it turns into a long slow grind.

I've always thought it would make for a better time-killer mobile game. I actually assumed it was on mobile and was shocked to find it wasn't when I got my new smartphone and went looking.
 

meiam

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Dec 9, 2010
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Well the dev do have a history of overbuffing and then overnerfing certain things, so if you wait for next patch the curse will probably have only a 1% chance of sticking to someone, require blood only once a month but spawn the new boss immediately upon entering a dungeon.

But yeah, at this point I'm done with the game, I grinded more than enough for a lifetime and the only kind of DLC that could bring me back would be if they changed the hero progression system so that they actually change as they level up rather than the current system where they're the same throughout just with bigger number, so something like a perk/talent system or at the very least have the ability gain some different attribute as they level up.
 

The Wykydtron

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Sep 23, 2010
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Fairly sure you only get the Fanatic if you go into a map with all 4 guys inflicted with the Crimson Curse, that's what triggered it for me and it was the very first time I went for a 4 man vampire run. Maybe I got super lucky but I dunno.

I'm sure there are certain CC buffs in the Steam workshop, i've not checked them out personally but i've seen them on the menu so see if they do much for your gripes. I got the level restriction removal mod so I don't have to bang my head against a wall to make a level 0-2 party have to fight the fucking cannon boss.

To me, DD is not a game you're supposed to actually win. Like there's a clear win condition sure but the road to get there is so arduous that basically nobody is gonna get there by design. If you check the global achievements on Steam, there are ridiculously few people who have actually beaten the game.

I mean, people have been bitching about DD balance forever. Especially if you were around when the corpses update was live before they made that optional. It seemed like every update "ruined Darkest Dungeon forever" but it has been successful enough to make enough money for paid DLC despite this. Honestly I think it's down to the devs' willingness to make so many game mechanics optional. Enemy crits can be nerfed, corpses disabled, town events removed and so on. It's likely they'll add a less awful Crimson Curse option in the near future.
 

bastardofmelbourne

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Ahh Darkest Dungeon; a true masochist's dream! I beat about a half dozen before realizing I had too much else to play that didn't grate my nuts so badly.
 

Spacewolf

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Think you can just turn off the DLC at any time in the options to the side of your save file. Anyway I'm by no means the best at this game (I mean I've been playing on and off for a year and am only just getting to week 74 and level 5 minions) but I have picked up a few hints that might help you with the blood issue,
If you're short on Busts to make the Distillery just use the swap mechanic to get rid of the Crests you have lying about I ended up getting approx 30 crest on average on a long lvl 3 mission you it's not really a loss to lose them.
Going to areas with high infection will almost always give you a invite even on lvl 1 missions and going there will get you 8 or 9 blood vials no problem on a long equivalent run.
Once your supply of blood is secure you can start using it on your guys which turns all the negatives into buffs one of which is a 25% dmg increase which when combined with the mercurial salve trinket gives you 50% extra damage vs blood suckers which makes the garden a doddle.

PS the garden also sometimes shows up as a level 3 quest use this to really get stuck into it.
 

PurplePonyArcade

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Hmm. Well that leaves me at odds then. I still really want to try the game but I should probably see what others say on the DLC to.
 

sXeth

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PurplePonyArcade said:
Hmm. Well that leaves me at odds then. I still really want to try the game but I should probably see what others say on the DLC to.
You can turn it on and off. There's also alternate difficulties, including the "Easy" mode that takes some of the grind out and lifts some arbitrary restrictions like not being able to send higher level heroes to do lower missions (and train new recruits as it were).

That said, I kind of fell off the game in general, ironically back when the release came up. The actual Darkest Dungeon was just a trial and error/wiki exercise, which is one of my big pet peeves in games. Threw 3 teams into the grinder and could never be bothered putting the time in for more attempts.
 

bastardofmelbourne

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I can say that I think they buffed the drop rate for blood vials in the past 24 hours, because there was a small download and suddenly vials are dropping much more frequently.

The Baron map is still unforgivably huge. I trundled through what I assumed would be half of it (hah!) and found a red locked door. I backtracked, found a way around the red locked door, went "huh" and found a blue key, trundled around some more, found a yellow door, backtracked some more, found a blue door, opened the blue door, found a yellow key, backtracked, opened the yellow door, found a red key, backtracked, and found that the red key just led back to a place I'd already been.

Backtracked all the way back up to what I assume must be the dungeon's end...found another red door. It's the 90s all over again.
 

FalloutJack

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Disable the DLC and start a new game. I've never played this, but it sounds like you'll thank yourself later.
 

Laughing Man

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DD, I really didn't get this game when I first played it. I used logic and reason to consider that their must be some team and combo of people and strategies that would let you win, let you work your way through the game.

Then it hit me, this isn't a game about finding the secret of tactic to give you victory, it's a game about managing for fucked things can get. To put it simply things WILL get fucked, that is going to happen and their is nothing you can do to stop that you just have to build a team and work the strategy to manage it...

... then after a major rage quit it hit me, the game isn't about managing the fuck it's a game about you getting fucked. No matter what you do, what strategy you decide on you can't manage it to make things better the game is there just to fuck you, the player, over and it will find a way no matter what you do to do this.

This was the point in which I gave up the game totally. The concept that no matter what you did in the game the game would eventually hit you with something that you just could not work round, something that would destroy hours and hours of hard work and force you all the way back to near start just hit me as not really fun. Yes I know that a lot of it is RNG but the game always came across as requiring the lucky few to actually win to hit the perfect combo of strategy, tactic, set up and positive RNG and that if even one tiny little factor was off, and I really don't want to say this again but I am going too, you were fucked.

The thing is the game has so so much to love about it, the presentation, art, sound, voice and the gameplay is brilliant but it's that one factor within the gameplay, the requirement to hit every factor perfectly and the fact that the game doesn't just punish a poor or miss step so much as club every member of your team about the head until they are nothing more than gibbering slabs of red and meat, that ruins the game utterly.
 

Fat Hippo

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Yeah, I'm not enjoying the expansion much either which is a shame. I wouldn't have minded more content, but the meta-mechanics they package it in are baffling and an utter pain.
 

jademunky

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Yeah, speaking as someone who played the hell of of the original version, I am not loving the DLC either.
Just the mechanics of the curse and the and the wholesale replacement of the majority of dungeon-specific enemies with DLC enemies (who also spread the curse) is just annoying. The cons of having the crimson curse by far outweigh the pro's and it does not get better, your characters never become full vampires or anything, they just get weaker and weaker and eventually just die if zhey do not get ze blood.
 

bartholen_v1legacy

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Jan 24, 2009
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Yeah... seeing the DLC in the store made me excited for a moment, but then I remembered why I stopped playing DarkDun in the first place. On the basis of the reviews I'm better off just checking out the mods in the newly applied workshop, which I was not aware of. Neither did I know about all the new updates like difficulty levels. Reading the reviews seems to suggest that the dev team really haven't figured out how to balance the game properly, even like a year into its lifespan. Just more of what makes the base game frustrating beyond measure: tons of grinding, incurable, unavoidable afflictions and debuffs, elements that are advertised as some kind of positive but turn out to be anything but.

Darkest Dungeon is the most frustrating RNG-based game I've ever played. At least in X-COM you have things like taking cover and keeping a medic close to offset the number generator fucking you over. The Binding of Isaac is fast-paced enough that starting a new game frustrates very little, and since the game is also heavily reliant on player skill, there's a great balance of gittin' gud vs. the RNG.

DD has neither of that. Applying buffs either wastes a turn or is so momentary it's hardly helpful, and even then takes up an inventory slot. The stress mechanic, while novel in concept, is far too punishing to add any real value to the game. Since there's no way of stopping the party from accumulating stress while moving, and the afflictions that come from the stress meter filling are completely random, the whole thing is just another annoyance factor instead of something that generates tension.

I wish I could say I love it. There's so much to like about it: it's about as perfect as a hardcore tactical Warhammer RPG we're going to get. The design and soundwork is gorgeous. But it's just riddled with so many unfair and annoying design choices.
 

KoudelkaMorgan

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That is why I quit long ago too. I tried coming back, but when I saw it was still 80% RNG based bs where you are constantly missing with 150% accuracy and debuffed enemies, get crippling diseases on the results screen of a successful mission, and the enemies typically get 4 turns for ever one of yours, per unit, it isn't even worth save scumming with PS crossplay saves.

It could be a really great game, if it were further polished by someone else. Boiled down the game amounts to planning perfectly before a mission, and playing perfectly in every fight you see, for a CHANCE to get barely enough good rolls to not wipe on a tough mission and hopefully not get so afflicted that you can actually use that party ever again let alone in a week or two. Repeat that about 1k times, only it never gets any more fun than the first dozen weeks.

I like hard games. When something kicks my ass I typically keep at it no matter how many times it takes. I have even stuck with games that were objectively broken experiences because parts of it were fun. No Man's Sky for example. Aside from the art and music though DD just offers nothing but disappointment of what could have been for me.

Now all I have heard of the DLC is to NOT get it, because you will want to disable it because it ruins the vanilla game and offers nothing fun.