So, is One Piece the most progressive anime ever?

[Rebel_Raven]

I dunno, I've watched a good bit of it, and the women seem to be the typical sort that just can't outshine any men in combat, and need rescuing, so, probably not the most progressive.

 

[ccggenius12]

What, the one where the leads are conventionally trim 10/10 and their supple DDs hang halfway out?

Spoiler

Yup, super progressive show.

That's from a filler episode. The series has been going on for over 700 episodes, they can't have ONE fanservice episode? Not saying that said characters aren't played for sex appeal, but it's rarely THAT ostentatious.

I recall a villain named Bon Kurei who looks like this:

Spoiler

...and who's supposed to be gay/transexual/crossdresser/all of them simultaneously.

He's incredibly flamboyant, speaks in a constant screech, is completely prissy, entirely effeminate and of course a ballerina.

Yeah, I'd say it's pretty proggressive

he also has an incredibly catchy musical number on one of the character CDs.

Spoiler

I'd definitely agree with others' sentiments that he has an exceptional character arc. I'd also like to reference the Extra Credits video on racism in Punch Out!, in that racism is as much about intent as content. At no point does the writer treat any of the characters in this series as less than human just because of what they happen to be. Generally traits that differ from the norm are played for laughs, and the character gets a pretty positive depiction (except the villains, but they HAVE to be dastardly, that's kind of the point of a Shonen. Granted, they pretty much all come back later with a heel-face turn, because again, Shonen.)

On the whole, I have to give credit to Oda, he's been doing an exemplary job of keeping the character designs distinct. I don't want to cop-out and use the word "iconic", but I'd say the aforementioned gamut of body types means that it's far easier to remember who is who in One Piece than in say, Bleach, wherein you have little more than hair style/color to differentiate them at a glance.

TLDR: I'd say calling it overly progressive is a bit of a stretch. What One Piece IS however is a long running series that's consistently shown that the writer has put a lot of forethought into everything he's included. Given the length of the series I hesitate to recommend anyone get started, but I will say I do not regret the time I've spent getting caught up.

 

[Politrukk]

Now, I've never seen this show, so maybe I'm way off, but this...

Spoiler

...and this...

Spoiler

...look more like attempts at ridicule. Like 'Look at those freaks! LOL' Maybe I'm completely wrong, and these characters actually play an important part in the story and are taken seriously and whatnot, but at first glance it just looks like it's actually making fun of those non-conventions.

Nope it's nothing to do with ridicule, in One Piece transsexuals have an actual island/nation to themselves (There's also a take on the entire amazon/feministic culture thing).

It depends on how you wish to read into it but the Main Character actually breaks a transsexual out of jail, I don't know if that was intended as symbolic but it damn well has that edge to it.

Aside from that although there may be some imagery that people find offensive

Example:

I don't think it's intended to be offensive.

The show deals with major issues such as racism (on both sides of the medal) opression of women, slavery of species,dictatorship,drugtesting ethics,abduction but it does it cunningly in a manner that children wouldn't quite be hit over the head with it yet still know it was wrong.

One of the main characters in One Piece is actually pretty much a full blown dedication to dealing with death and abandonment (talking about Brook here).

Oda touches on so many things and everything is incredibly well thought out.

 

[Politrukk]

I dunno, I've watched a good bit of it, and the women seem to be the typical sort that just can't outshine any men in combat, and need rescuing, so, probably not the most progressive.

I'll probably catch some flak for this but :

You can be progressive without doing anything with Women.


That being said One Piece deals with Women differently, it's actually very progressive in that regard.
Whilst women aren't often shown as "physically" outmatching their opponents they tend to outwit them, be more clever, more mature, more responsible.
There's some very heavy character development that basically hints at rape/abuse victims overcoming their trauma (This is what Amazon Lily/Fishman Islan and Hebihime's story line are based on) it also deals with abandonment and abuse again in the Dressrosa arc with Violet and Rebecca.

The entire point with most women in One Piece is that they're strong due to having overcome trauma or issues of their own and that makes them unique, there are some others that are strong by resolve or being born strong but still not having had an easy life.

Now this may read like a fanboy rant but the point I want to make is that you can't judge a book by its cover and with One Piece it's a very big and intricate book and both Anime and Manga do some great takes on heavy issues, sometimes you might not even be noticing it whilst it's happening but that's sort of the point.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I dunno, I've watched a good bit of it, and the women seem to be the typical sort that just can't outshine any men in combat, and need rescuing, so, probably not the most progressive.

I'll probably catch some flak for this but :

You can be progressive without doing anything with Women.


That being said One Piece deals with Women differently, it's actually very progressive in that regard.
Whilst women aren't often shown as "physically" outmatching their opponents they tend to outwit them, be more clever, more mature, more responsible.
There's some very heavy character development that basically hints at rape/abuse victims overcoming their trauma (This is what Amazon Lily/Fishman Islan and Hebihime's story line are based on) it also deals with abandonment and abuse again in the Dressrosa arc with Violet and Rebecca.

The entire point with most women in One Piece is that they're strong due to having overcome trauma or issues of their own and that makes them unique, there are some others that are strong by resolve or being born strong but still not having had an easy life.

Now this may read like a fanboy rant but the point I want to make is that you can't judge a book by its cover and with One Piece it's a very big and intricate book and both Anime and Manga do some great takes on heavy issues, sometimes you might not even be noticing it whilst it's happening but that's sort of the point.

Eh, I'll try not to kill ya over a difference in opinion.

I know nothing needs be done with women to be progressive, but it certainly helps if you do something with women. It also helps if you be diverse with them. It adds to being progressive. Hard to say it's the "most" progressive if it lacks in areas.

Honestly, it's been done before. Most everything has, mind you. I mean, there's definitely women that maul enemies in anime, but One Piece doesn't really have it so far. I just finished the Annie's Lobby arc coz I watch on Adult Swim, and read some of the manga. I like it, too. 'bout the only criticism I have is it feels like they try too hard to create unusual characters, but that's okay in the long run. I'll agree it does a lot to show a wide variety of people in assorted shapes, and sizes, men, women, kids, etc.

Yeah, the women get to get over issues in their lives in One Piece, but so do the guys at times, and they still kick butt on a larger scale, and aren't pure brute strength all the time, either. Guys generally get the more interesting fights, largely because the women aren't strong enough to win by any other means but cunning. It pings that annoying "women are archers, rogues, healers, or mages, and little else" trope that saturates media, though Anime does break away from it.
Hell, Chopper got to win with brute strength and overcoming some issues. He kicked Kumadori's butt like a boss! That fight had comedy, drama, character advancement, and some solid build.

The women feel kinda watered down in terms of combat, and more victims than anything, though that's generally true of Shonen stuff. What happens when they overcome their issues? Do they get stronger because of it, or do they resume being how they were more or less? I mean, sure Nami got new gear, but her CP9 conflicts were boring as hell compared to most.
I mean, even if they do get stronger, they're constantly in the shadows in regards to combat. Again, a typical shonen thing, but still.
I mean, it'd be nice if they gained more value on the front lines. Even when they were mauling people on the front lines, it seemed far more comical, and downplayed.

Maybe I missed something, though? I'm no expert on the series.

I mean, kudos to the series, and I hope it lasts as long as it can, but "most progressive?" I don't feel it. Still, it's pretty awesome.

 

[Kopikatsu]

I mean, it'd be nice if they gained more value on the front lines. Even when they were mauling people on the front lines, it seemed far more comical, and downplayed.

Usopp, Franky, and Chopper's fights are mostly played for comedy as well (At least until Monster Point comes out). It isn't that the women are pushed to the side so much as Sanji, Zoro, and Luffy are just freakishly powerful. They're even repeatedly refered to as the 'Monster Trio' and often the rest of the crew struggles to stay alive against threats that any of the main three fighters can crush easily.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I mean, it'd be nice if they gained more value on the front lines. Even when they were mauling people on the front lines, it seemed far more comical, and downplayed.

Usopp, Franky, and Chopper's fights are mostly played for comedy as well (At least until Monster Point comes out). It isn't that the women are pushed to the side so much as Sanji, Zoro, and Luffy are just freakishly powerful. They're even repeatedly refered to as the 'Monster Trio' and often the rest of the crew struggles to stay alive against threats that any of the main three fighters can crush easily.

I'll grant you their fights are comedic, but they're also more interesting, with character growth, and so forth. All things considered, they have better battles. Their comedy is balanced out with some badassery on the front lines. From the context of what you say, Franky, Chopper, and Usopp's tone of battle changes, which doesn't help your point much, if true.

See, why not have a freakishly powerful woman on crew? That's my issue, really. I know it's a shonen, and frankly I'm used to women being sidelined heavily having watched more than my fair share, but the question is if this shonen were the most progressive ever, and I say no. Like the majority of Shonen, the women do get sidelined a lot, and they just don't ever really get to stack up.

Franky's pretty powerful, imo. He faced down several CP9 members, and won. He may not be Monster Trio tier, but I'd say beating several CP9s is impressive enough.

Chopper faced moral dilemma, then goes on to annihilate a CP9 member.

 

[CrimsonBlaze]

I've fallen in and out with the One Piece series for years and all I can say is that it has effectively desensitize its audience to all shapes, sizes, preferences, fashion, personalities, and overall characterization that the creators can develop any inconceivable character and be praised or downright adored.

 

[Politrukk]

I dunno, I've watched a good bit of it, and the women seem to be the typical sort that just can't outshine any men in combat, and need rescuing, so, probably not the most progressive.

I'll probably catch some flak for this but :

You can be progressive without doing anything with Women.


That being said One Piece deals with Women differently, it's actually very progressive in that regard.
Whilst women aren't often shown as "physically" outmatching their opponents they tend to outwit them, be more clever, more mature, more responsible.
There's some very heavy character development that basically hints at rape/abuse victims overcoming their trauma (This is what Amazon Lily/Fishman Islan and Hebihime's story line are based on) it also deals with abandonment and abuse again in the Dressrosa arc with Violet and Rebecca.

The entire point with most women in One Piece is that they're strong due to having overcome trauma or issues of their own and that makes them unique, there are some others that are strong by resolve or being born strong but still not having had an easy life.

Now this may read like a fanboy rant but the point I want to make is that you can't judge a book by its cover and with One Piece it's a very big and intricate book and both Anime and Manga do some great takes on heavy issues, sometimes you might not even be noticing it whilst it's happening but that's sort of the point.

Eh, I'll try not to kill ya over a difference in opinion.

I know nothing needs be done with women to be progressive, but it certainly helps if you do something with women. It also helps if you be diverse with them. It adds to being progressive. Hard to say it's the "most" progressive if it lacks in areas.

Honestly, it's been done before. Most everything has, mind you. I mean, there's definitely women that maul enemies in anime, but One Piece doesn't really have it so far. I just finished the Annie's Lobby arc coz I watch on Adult Swim, and read some of the manga. I like it, too. 'bout the only criticism I have is it feels like they try too hard to create unusual characters, but that's okay in the long run. I'll agree it does a lot to show a wide variety of people in assorted shapes, and sizes, men, women, kids, etc.

Yeah, the women get to get over issues in their lives in One Piece, but so do the guys at times, and they still kick butt on a larger scale, and aren't pure brute strength all the time, either. Guys generally get the more interesting fights, largely because the women aren't strong enough to win by any other means but cunning. It pings that annoying "women are archers, rogues, healers, or mages, and little else" trope that saturates media, though Anime does break away from it.
Hell, Chopper got to win with brute strength and overcoming some issues. He kicked Kumadori's butt like a boss! That fight had comedy, drama, character advancement, and some solid build.

The women feel kinda watered down in terms of combat, and more victims than anything, though that's generally true of Shonen stuff. What happens when they overcome their issues? Do they get stronger because of it, or do they resume being how they were more or less? I mean, sure Nami got new gear, but her CP9 conflicts were boring as hell compared to most.
I mean, even if they do get stronger, they're constantly in the shadows in regards to combat. Again, a typical shonen thing, but still.
I mean, it'd be nice if they gained more value on the front lines. Even when they were mauling people on the front lines, it seemed far more comical, and downplayed.

Maybe I missed something, though? I'm no expert on the series.

I mean, kudos to the series, and I hope it lasts as long as it can, but "most progressive?" I don't feel it. Still, it's pretty awesome.

Well for the most progressive title you only have to outdo your competitors, can you name anime that you think have done it better?

Aside from that fact : if we compare where you are in the anime/manga to where both are now there's currently a difference of what? 400-500 chapters? (The anime is currently at episode 710 and the manga just reached chapter 800).

Currently it's up for debate but Robin and Sanji shift a lot in power rankings threads as part of the crew Robin is counted amongst the strongest fighters but because the top three is sort of a traditional thing she can't really outshine Sanji, that's got nothing to do with sexism but with the way the story is told, this means in terms of strength she outmatches Usopp,Chopper,Nami,Brook and even Franky.

Aside from Nico Robin there currently are characters like Big Mom and her ?daughter? who rank among the Yonkou and Supernovas respectively there's captain Tashigi and there's some women in the Punk Hazard, Fishman Island and Dressrosa arcs who take quite prominent positions.

 

[Erttheking]

Yeah...no. I like One Piece, but basically any time the Okamas come up, they're used for comedy. They're still good guys and have great moments (Mr.2) but their sexuality is only ever brought up to be the butt of jokes, like when the Marines got horribly traumatized by being hit on by the Okamas, and how Sanji considered staying on Okama island for two years to be hell.

The female body types thing is something that Oda did...ok early on. The majority of female characters were and still are bombshells. In recent years he's really dropped the ball on that one though, even most of the background characters are freaking barrel chested, and Big Mom seems to be the only exception I can see. And I think it's the classic evil = ugly thing.

I just feel like it doesn't do nearly enough to be "the most progressive anime ever"

 

[Rebel_Raven]

~snip~
Well for the most progressive title you only have to outdo your competitors, can you name anime that you think have done it better?

Aside from that fact : if we compare where you are in the anime/manga to where both are now there's currently a difference of what? 400-500 chapters? (The anime is currently at episode 710 and the manga just reached chapter 800).

Currently it's up for debate but Robin and Sanji shift a lot in power rankings threads as part of the crew Robin is counted amongst the strongest fighters but because the top three is sort of a traditional thing she can't really outshine Sanji, that's got nothing to do with sexism but with the way the story is told, this means in terms of strength she outmatches Usopp,Chopper,Nami,Brook and even Franky.

Aside from Nico Robin there currently are characters like Big Mom and her ?daughter? who rank among the Yonkou and Supernovas respectively there's captain Tashigi and there's some women in the Punk Hazard, Fishman Island and Dressrosa arcs who take quite prominent positions.

Better? I can name some competition at the least.
Sailor Moon, I'd say is a fair competitor and by a few dozen years ahead. Lesbians (Haruka, and Muchiru), Gays (Zoicite, and Kunzite), The Sailor starlights, trans-species (Pretty sure Chibi-usa had a relationship with a Unicorn that could turn into a boy, but it's been a while so I'm fuzzy on that), and the guys in the series were still powerful even though women were the focus of the series as men were major antagonists, and allies.
Granted it was mostly the monsters that had anything other than pale skin.

Bleach?
It has some lesbian undertones, IMO, with Soifon, and Yoruichi.
There's Chizuru Honsho who's very much a lesbian, even to the point it powers her super-heroine persona Karakura erotic. Yeah, it's comedy, but it's not that tasteless.
A variety of body types granted they're less outlandish.
There's assorted skin colors across the board.
The women of the main cast (And the main cast is pretty huge) are very relevant on, and off the battlefield even though none quite match Ichigo despite Orihime supposedly being goddess like in power. By relevant on the battlefield, I mean they actually have interesting fights, powers, etc.
The characters have some depth, including the enemies, some of whom have neat back stories, and they don't all go away after the arc is over.

Ghost In the shell? It does lack a variety of skin color (at least as far as the animes go), but Kusanagi has relations with men, and women. It definitely pokes at issues in society, and philosophy. Kusanagi is brilliant, easy on the eyes, and very capable, but still has to rely on her co-workers who are largely male, and treated with respect in general, and she's not in command.

My point is One Piece stumbles because, bluntly, I'm not a fan of the general utilization of women in the main cast compared to the men of the main cast. They seem almost like an afterthought.
I'm not sure the racial/color diversity is done on purpose, rather trying to create strange people in a way similar to anime uses odd hair colors, but in stereotypes, and just being weird. I mean the characters get immensely outlandish in appearance, and mannerism.
I'll admit that I'm way behind, but it sounds like the women of the crew are still very much sidelined. Do they ever get new powers/abilities/etc. after Anne's lobby?

I'm not saying One Piece isn't progressive, nor am I saying I don't like it, but I dunno, it doesn't feel like it breaks that many molds.

 

[Politrukk]

~snip~
Well for the most progressive title you only have to outdo your competitors, can you name anime that you think have done it better?

Aside from that fact : if we compare where you are in the anime/manga to where both are now there's currently a difference of what? 400-500 chapters? (The anime is currently at episode 710 and the manga just reached chapter 800).

Currently it's up for debate but Robin and Sanji shift a lot in power rankings threads as part of the crew Robin is counted amongst the strongest fighters but because the top three is sort of a traditional thing she can't really outshine Sanji, that's got nothing to do with sexism but with the way the story is told, this means in terms of strength she outmatches Usopp,Chopper,Nami,Brook and even Franky.

Aside from Nico Robin there currently are characters like Big Mom and her ?daughter? who rank among the Yonkou and Supernovas respectively there's captain Tashigi and there's some women in the Punk Hazard, Fishman Island and Dressrosa arcs who take quite prominent positions.

Better? I can name some competition at the least.
Sailor Moon, I'd say is a fair competitor and by a few dozen years ahead. Lesbians (Haruka, and Muchiru), Gays (Zoicite, and Kunzite), The Sailor starlights, trans-species (Pretty sure Chibi-usa had a relationship with a Unicorn that could turn into a boy, but it's been a while so I'm fuzzy on that), and the guys in the series were still powerful even though women were the focus of the series as men were major antagonists, and allies.
Granted it was mostly the monsters that had anything other than pale skin.

Bleach?
It has some lesbian undertones, IMO, with Soifon, and Yoruichi.
There's Chizuru Honsho who's very much a lesbian, even to the point it powers her super-heroine persona Karakura erotic. Yeah, it's comedy, but it's not that tasteless.
A variety of body types granted they're less outlandish.
There's assorted skin colors across the board.
The women of the main cast (And the main cast is pretty huge) are very relevant on, and off the battlefield even though none quite match Ichigo despite Orihime supposedly being goddess like in power. By relevant on the battlefield, I mean they actually have interesting fights, powers, etc.
The characters have some depth, including the enemies, some of whom have neat back stories, and they don't all go away after the arc is over.

Ghost In the shell? It does lack a variety of skin color (at least as far as the animes go), but Kusanagi has relations with men, and women. It definitely pokes at issues in society, and philosophy. Kusanagi is brilliant, easy on the eyes, and very capable, but still has to rely on her co-workers who are largely male, and treated with respect in general, and she's not in command.

My point is One Piece stumbles because, bluntly, I'm not a fan of the general utilization of women in the main cast compared to the men of the main cast. They seem almost like an afterthought.
I'm not sure the racial/color diversity is done on purpose, rather trying to create strange people in a way similar to anime uses odd hair colors, but in stereotypes, and just being weird. I mean the characters get immensely outlandish in appearance, and mannerism.
I'll admit that I'm way behind, but it sounds like the women of the crew are still very much sidelined. Do they ever get new powers/abilities/etc. after Anne's lobby?

I'm not saying One Piece isn't progressive, nor am I saying I don't like it, but I dunno, it doesn't feel like it breaks that many molds.

Both Robin and Nami get powerups, Nami is or is not the weakest depending on the situation but that's because she's basically a "support" class character.

Robin really powers up quite a bit but could still be better utilized, however, there are several female characters that stand up/come along, along the way that are both powerful and resourceful.

Edit:

I think One Piece and Bleach shine in different regards in terms of progression.

One Piece dares to show and experiment into quite wide territory whereas Bleach makes diversity commonplace.

Nobody gives a damn about your skin colour/race/sex/preferences in Bleach, can you or can you not swing a sword, will you or will you not fight with me/against me.

Which is not bad, simply dropping all pretense and just rolling with it all is probably what we'd all like to happen in the real world too.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

~snip~
Well for the most progressive title you only have to outdo your competitors, can you name anime that you think have done it better?

Aside from that fact : if we compare where you are in the anime/manga to where both are now there's currently a difference of what? 400-500 chapters? (The anime is currently at episode 710 and the manga just reached chapter 800).

Currently it's up for debate but Robin and Sanji shift a lot in power rankings threads as part of the crew Robin is counted amongst the strongest fighters but because the top three is sort of a traditional thing she can't really outshine Sanji, that's got nothing to do with sexism but with the way the story is told, this means in terms of strength she outmatches Usopp,Chopper,Nami,Brook and even Franky.

Aside from Nico Robin there currently are characters like Big Mom and her ?daughter? who rank among the Yonkou and Supernovas respectively there's captain Tashigi and there's some women in the Punk Hazard, Fishman Island and Dressrosa arcs who take quite prominent positions.

Better? I can name some competition at the least.
Sailor Moon, I'd say is a fair competitor and by a few dozen years ahead. Lesbians (Haruka, and Muchiru), Gays (Zoicite, and Kunzite), The Sailor starlights, trans-species (Pretty sure Chibi-usa had a relationship with a Unicorn that could turn into a boy, but it's been a while so I'm fuzzy on that), and the guys in the series were still powerful even though women were the focus of the series as men were major antagonists, and allies.
Granted it was mostly the monsters that had anything other than pale skin.

Bleach?
It has some lesbian undertones, IMO, with Soifon, and Yoruichi.
There's Chizuru Honsho who's very much a lesbian, even to the point it powers her super-heroine persona Karakura erotic. Yeah, it's comedy, but it's not that tasteless.
A variety of body types granted they're less outlandish.
There's assorted skin colors across the board.
The women of the main cast (And the main cast is pretty huge) are very relevant on, and off the battlefield even though none quite match Ichigo despite Orihime supposedly being goddess like in power. By relevant on the battlefield, I mean they actually have interesting fights, powers, etc.
The characters have some depth, including the enemies, some of whom have neat back stories, and they don't all go away after the arc is over.

Ghost In the shell? It does lack a variety of skin color (at least as far as the animes go), but Kusanagi has relations with men, and women. It definitely pokes at issues in society, and philosophy. Kusanagi is brilliant, easy on the eyes, and very capable, but still has to rely on her co-workers who are largely male, and treated with respect in general, and she's not in command.

My point is One Piece stumbles because, bluntly, I'm not a fan of the general utilization of women in the main cast compared to the men of the main cast. They seem almost like an afterthought.
I'm not sure the racial/color diversity is done on purpose, rather trying to create strange people in a way similar to anime uses odd hair colors, but in stereotypes, and just being weird. I mean the characters get immensely outlandish in appearance, and mannerism.
I'll admit that I'm way behind, but it sounds like the women of the crew are still very much sidelined. Do they ever get new powers/abilities/etc. after Anne's lobby?

I'm not saying One Piece isn't progressive, nor am I saying I don't like it, but I dunno, it doesn't feel like it breaks that many molds.

Both Robin and Nami get powerups, Nami is or is not the weakest depending on the situation but that's because she's basically a "support" class character.

Robin really powers up quite a bit but could still be better utilized, however, there are several female characters that stand up/come along, along the way that are both powerful and resourceful.

Edit:

I think One Piece and Bleach shine in different regards in terms of progression.

One Piece dares to show and experiment into quite wide territory whereas Bleach makes diversity commonplace.

Nobody gives a damn about your skin colour/race/sex/preferences in Bleach, can you or can you not swing a sword, will you or will you not fight with me/against me.

Which is not bad, simply dropping all pretense and just rolling with it all is probably what we'd all like to happen in the real world too.

Yeah, I guess I've just seen too much of the resourceful sorts as opposed to one that just beats the crap out of everyone. The latter's kinda rare.

I'll not ask for spoilers for One Piece, I'll watch, and read eventually and maybe get pleasantly surprised.

I agree on your view with Bleach, and One Piece. One Piece has a very large array of characters with grand imagination behind them. Bleach, not so much, but there's still diversity.

Bleach is sort of an egalitarian military system where people are promoted based on merits, and where physical brawn isn't the end all be all of power, as spiritual power can make up for it, or replicate it creating level playing fields among people of similar power levels.