So it seems Hotline Miami 2 has rape in it...

[Annihilist]

So what if it's in the game? Rape is in lots of things. And rape happens in the real world too. Are you saying that art should not be allowed to reflect reality? Or are some things "off limits?" Nothing is off limits for the artist.

Yay sense.

Anyone who loses their shit about this has clearly lost perspective.

 

[ShiningAmber]

I really want to compare my experiences in the military with that other posters rape experience but in reality does it matter? Both are equally horrible. I dont understand why one atrocious act need to be worse than the other.

If you were to tell me, I would listen to you. Both are equally horrible and none worse than the other.

 

[Lieju]

The US media has a very unhealthy relationship with sex.

Indeed.

It's not just that though. Rape fantasies can be very sexy. The emphasis is fantasies.

The problem is that too often it's not admitted it's a rape fantasy. It's too common rape is put in for sexual titullation but they pretend it's for the story, or that it's depicted as 'not rape if she enjoys it'.

Rape fantasy has it's place, but I'd like to see more consensual sex, is all.

 

[Lieju]

--
I don't agree that it's a problem "that it's not admitted it's a rape fantasy". Of course it's part of a fantasy. If it's part of fiction, it's part of fantasy by definition. It's an imagined story. The more repressed people's sexual behaviour is, the more effective such a story in allowing people to enjoy tittilation without the responsibility.

It's not the 'fantasy' part that bothers me.

It's the 'rape'.
And the underlying attitudes for releasing the character from responsibility can be pretty nasty.

A female character can't go looking for sex, that would make her a slut. But if it's forced on her, it's not her fault, and if she enjoys it, it not rape.

Why do you think 50 shades is so (depressingly) popular?
And why it's fans don't admit it's rape and an abusive relationship?

And think of all the rape-in-media-controversies, and how many people will defend it by saying 'it's not rape' or 'it's important for the story'.

 

[Lieju]

Why do you think 50 shades is so (depressingly) popular?
And why it's fans don't admit it's rape and an abusive relationship?

1. Because BDSM can be pretty hot too. And somehow the way it was written makes it enjoyably digestible by modern 40+ women.

I'm not talking about the BDSM. I'm talking about the main male character coercing the woman to have sex, and being overall abusive bastard. And this is not admitted to be abusive behaviour by the author.

And those 40+ modern women can enjoy it because they feel quilty about wanting sex, and having the sex (and any 'kinky' stuff) forced on the main female lead gives them the permission to enjoy it.

2. For the same reason I don't call Jack Sparrow, a murderous criminal? He's a character that I'm rooting for, living adventures that I wish I could live.

If you're rooting for any of the main characters in 50 shades, and wish you'd actually be in that situation, gross.

My problem isn't with depicting an abusive and rapey behaviour (and even fetishizing it), it's pretending it's not that.

I've said it several times; my issue is with rape being put in when it's not needed or handled well, and when it's pretended it's not rape.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Its not about what is more "Special" it is not about "Censorship", it is not about limiting artistic freedom. But if you create something, it is open to criticism.

Saying something is 'offensive' is not a valid criticism of art and if highlighting something as potentially offensive isn't an attempt to open it up for censorship then what is it trying to do? Saying this is 'insensitive' to rape victims provides no actual insight into something as a work of art but instead demeans it's value as art and only considers how it is placed in society ( which is the basis for all calls of censorship. )

This is a beautifully concise and erudite post, which doesn't seem to be out of the norm for you.

If the goal is censorship. How did you decide that the onus was on creators to bend to your whim, rather than on you to avoid content that you find objectionable?

If the goal isn't censorship... aren't you just whining? You need to be clear about what you're advocating if you're going to criticise a work based on one detail.

?Adam was but human?this explains it all. He did not want the apple for the apple's sake, he wanted it only because it was forbidden. The mistake was in not forbidding the serpent; then he would have eaten the serpent.? - Mark Twain.

I feel like this is worth considering every time censorship and offence is being discussed.

 

[Alex Mac]

I felt you were being dismissive to the material actually being art because it has rape in it.

A few days behind on this quote but I don't know if I'd elevate Hotline Miami to art status.

 

[Union Jack]

This may have already been pointed out, but I think something a lot of people in this thread didn't quite notice is the fact that the rape scene was in a movie being filmed within the game. The characters were actors. In the full video, which I saw on PC Gamer, you see a director yelling "Cut!" and telling you to do it again. The Escapist's video just sort of shows the rape and nothing else.

 

[Six Ways]

This may have already been pointed out, but I think something a lot of people in this thread didn't quite notice is the fact that the rape scene was in a movie being filmed within the game. The characters were actors. In the full video, which I saw on PC Gamer, you see a director yelling "Cut!" and telling you to do it again. The Escapist's video just sort of shows the rape and nothing else.

I think pretty much everyone in this thread is aware of this by now. But, while I'm in support of the rape scene (because HM is artistically the right place for such a thing IMO), the fact that it's only a "scene" doesn't change the argument. You're still witnessing what at the time looks to be a rape. I don't think you can say "Look! A rape! Be shocked!" and then say "Why are you shocked? It's not a rape.".

If the goal isn't censorship... aren't you just whining?

No. The goal is to get developers to think about what they're doing, and having considered it, if it's still really what they want to do. Again, in this case, I think it is, because HM is supposed to show you the awful shit you do on a daily basis in other games, and not sugar-coat it.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

This may have already been pointed out, but I think something a lot of people in this thread didn't quite notice is the fact that the rape scene was in a movie being filmed within the game. The characters were actors. In the full video, which I saw on PC Gamer, you see a director yelling "Cut!" and telling you to do it again. The Escapist's video just sort of shows the rape and nothing else.

I think pretty much everyone in this thread is aware of this by now. But, while I'm in support of the rape scene (because HM is artistically the right place for such a thing IMO), the fact that it's only a "scene" doesn't change the argument. You're still witnessing what at the time looks to be a rape. I don't think you can say "Look! A rape! Be shocked!" and then say "Why are you shocked? It's not a rape.".

If the goal isn't censorship... aren't you just whining?

No. The goal is to get developers to think about what they're doing, and having considered it, if it's still really what they want to do. Again, in this case, I think it is, because HM is supposed to show you the awful shit you do on a daily basis in other games, and not sugar-coat it.

Even if that's the goal, that's not all it does.

Controversy can mean lots of free advertising and rebel-credibility. If you're coming from a position of finding the content objectionable, this could be seen as a fairly counter-productive thing to be stirring up.

Anyone who legitimately wants to make a point to the developers is(in my view) likely best off writing a reasonable email(meaning no ranting or insult throwing, these things detract from your credibility) directly to those developing the game. You don't get to have the media circus, but you also don't make people want to have the thing that you're protesting just to spite you.

That forbidden fruit is so darn tasty looking.