So it seems Hotline Miami 2 has rape in it...

[infinity_turtles]

Not the same thing, but reading this thread I couldn't help but be reminded of the article about the gaming soldier with PTSD who used either CoD or Battlefield to help desensitize himself to his triggers.

Anyway, don't really care what kind of horrible things are done to fictional people. As for real people being traumatized by it, the game presents itself as pretty horrible, so if you have triggers of any sort you should really know better then to seek out this sort of media. If you don't have triggers and are just offended by the idea, I have to say I think that finding something offensive is one of the weakest criticisms that exist, and those sort of complaints rank right up there with trying to call out a game for being a genre you don't like(unless it's a sequel that changed genres, but that's a whole other can of worms).

*editted*Replaced it with itself for clarity.

 

[hazabaza1]

There's some talk among the community that's more interested in this that I am that talk about the three Dons being the Id, Ego and Super-Ego. Don Juan (the horse mask and hooker) is the Id, calm and more compassionate, keeping things grounded and... relatively stable.

Richard (the chicken mask) is the Ego, the most neutral, questioning the things you're doing in a passive way. Also wears the same clothes your protagonist wears so there' a hint there.

Rasmus (the owl mask) is the Super-Ego, constantly aggressive and living in a really morbid area. Also wears the same clothes the Russian gangsters do so there's some extra hint of antagonism there.

Forgive me for not reading this thread in its entirety, but I wanted to politely point out very quickly:

You seem to have the Id and Super-Ego swapped there. In Freud's theory of the unconscious, the Id is that which embodies all of our base, animalistic impulses: eat everything, drink everything, get wasted on everything, fuck everything, murder anyone for revenge, murder anyone for their possessions, murder anyone for disagreeing with your opinion. It is the Super-Ego that acts as a censor and neutralizes these unreasonable impulses. Unreasonable, in this instance, meaning that they are without reason, there is no thought behind them.

The Id says "eat a whole pint of ice cream," the super ego says "you will get fat and it will start to melt and it's a mess and your stomach will hurt." The Id says "murder that person because they made you angry" and the Super-Ego says "There's laws against that and it's not that big a deal and what would you do after that anyway?" Meanwhile the Ego is oblivious to this conversation, the Ego is only aware of the outcome of their struggle.

I unsure whether the mix-up in your post is the result of your error (totally forgivable!), or the game's creators, or someone else in the fandom community. Either way, Freud's theory of the unconscious is about as relevant to Psychology as Arstotle's elemental theory (the universe is composed of fire, water, earth, air) is to modern physics. Nowadays both are fun little theories that are useful for storytelling and game design, respectively, but have no bearing on reality in any scientific way.

Whoops, been a while since I did psychology in school and I got a lot of this from the fanbase.

But yeah I basically disregarded Freud after the first few lessons I had on him, but using his idea for a game setup is a neat enough idea.

 

[TwentyZeroes]

I didn't make this video, but I came across it and I thought this thread could use it.

 

[knight steel]

I didn't make this video, but I came across it and I thought this thread could use it.

Brilliant post-the best first time post I have seen on this site-well done ^_^
Also WELCOME TO THE ESCAPIST cookies will be mailed to you soon and please don't enter the basement if you value your sanity

 

[Dark Knifer]

I didn't make this video, but I came across it and I thought this thread could use it.

Nice first post there mate welcome

Pretty much what that video said, movies, music and other mediums get a free pass so why not games as well.

 

[Hazy]

forcing artists to change their viewpoint for the sake of another person's own ideals is censorship.

Encouraging artists to analyse their subconscious ideals, and reconsider their opinion of the art they want to make, is not.

Artists have their ideals solely in mind when creating their art. It's the reason why Van Gogh's The Scream possesses a specific color palette: it was designed that way. It holds a distinct purpose. If he were to come back to life after all this time and say "Yeah, that smudge on the canvas was actually from where I dropped my cigarette, so I'm actually going to remove it," it wouldn't be the same image. It would not be a complete work of art.

Criticism can be and often is good. It constructs a better caliber of a people, and influences works of a higher quality. But we shouldn't necessarily condemn a fictional rape scene as "wrong," simply because it offends another person's ideals. And certainly not when it holds a fundamental purpose.

I guess Yahtzee is then the most pro-censorship game-journalist, then, and all the complaints about XBone are gamers being pro-censorship and everyone should just say positive things about any product. I'm really tired of people hiding from criticism with 'you're trying to censor me!'.
Especially when it comes to something like the portrayal of women in games.

If I criticise COD for being linear and dull, no-one is yelling at me for trying to censor it, for some reason...

The freedom of experession doesn't mean freedom from opposing viewpoints

Now you're taking what I said out of context. Again, criticism is inherently not bad, but when it stands to forsake an artist's work because it hurts your feelings, then you're crossing over into a whole new territory.

At this point, I'm not sure if you're being petulant or actually missing the point being made that the reality of the situation is nobody's making a fuss.

And your response has NOTHING to do with Lieju, so, I'm not even sure what to say there.

You would think so, but you would be wrong. Refer to the twitter discussion between Söderström and Blackclaw FM, and this video:

This isn't about feminism or objectification: it's about something so much more. This is about the freedoms of artistic expression and sticking to your guns when people find it mortifying.

 

[TwentyZeroes]

I didn't make this video, but I came across it and I thought this thread could use it.

Brilliant post-the best first time post I have seen on this site-well done ^_^
Also WELCOME TO THE ESCAPIST cookies will be mailed to you soon and please don't enter the basement if you value your sanity

Thank you! I've always liked the discussion on this site, it seems like even the shitstorms here are at least civil.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

All I remember from the Tomb Raider thing was a lot of people yelling "LAURAS GONNA GET RAPED" and it turned out she wasn't.

all we had to go one was the developer talking about it as rape and visual and audio cues. What fools we were to believe THAT.

lol.

Please don't ***** at others for not portraying the controversies right when you can't get them right your self. The "defininng, character-building moment for Lara Croft," was never about the actual assault.

That's not how the dev portrayed it, and it still looks like some heavy retconning went on after the fact. But if it makes you feel better to claim I'm misportraying people when the OP admitted he was just stirring the pot, then *shrug*

I would certainly feel foolish if I was one of those people, yes.

Lulz.

 

[Callate]

It's a violent, messed-up kind of game. Willfully and intentionally so. So was Hotline Miami.

It's also one game, one with an incredibly small development team.

If you think its content might offend you, don't play it. I think the developers have given more than fair warning that the game's content may disturb. I don't think it's in any way reasonable to suggest that it's either going to promote real-world imitation or somehow lead to the mainstreaming of rape as an acceptable course of action for video game protagonists.

Failing that criteria, what's left is "it offends me". Offending you, or me, or anyone, is not in and of itself enough reason for something to cease to exist. Poke around on the Internet for ten minutes and you will most likely find a dozen things you're okay with that at least one person thinks shouldn't exist.

I personally don't know if I'll ever play it. I only played the original when I could get it for about $2. But even if I absolutely despised it, that doesn't mean I have a right to say it shouldn't exist, or even that its developers shouldn't be able to make something consistent with their own ideas of how to interact with the player without editing that vision to please people who won't even necessarily play it.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

It seems kinda obvious to me.

You cant upset the victims of murder. You cant make them have flashbacks to their death. You cant offend them by making the action that killed them a sport. You cant make a simulation of their death for kids to relive over and over and over and then show it to them. Because they died.

You CAN do this with a rape surivor. Theres the difference.

The difference between assault survivors and rape survivors as well is the aspect of personal space and security in the crime.

Rape is taking something intimate and special that you share with those you love and violating it in every possible way to make it cruel and painful and horrific. It pretty much fucks up a huge part of your psychee forever. Being assaulted is usually less of a personal affair. They usually just want your wallet. Unless its extreme circumstances it doesnt violate you on a personal level to the degree rape does.

Now i dont think that media shouldnt have rape IN it or explore the issue of rape. However making the character commit rape and making committing the rape a sport is pretty distasteful. Theres something impersonal about making a headshot. Forcing another person to surrender their inner most safe place to your twisted desires is kinda personal and weird and implies a level of sadism that a detatched "Yay i shot some very far away pixels" doesnt.

The media needs to explore rape and highlight the issue. Forcing a player to commit a rape doesnt really help this in a meaningful way. Im not gonna say they CANT do it or it shouldnt be allowed. I just find it personally extremely distasteful. Id find any violent act thats as personal and involves mental and physical violation as distasteful as rape in a game.

Aren't the real victims of murder the surviving relatives of the murdered? Couldn't you upset the mother of a boy who was murdered in cold blood?

I'll actually swing the otherway, I don't think any entertainment medium should ever really try to tackle anything super serious as to try to have an impact on people. Regardless of the material or how it's presented, so long as there is a fictional narrative at play it will always indirectly end up glamorizing it.

 

[knight steel]

I didn't make this video, but I came across it and I thought this thread could use it.

Brilliant post-the best first time post I have seen on this site-well done ^_^
Also WELCOME TO THE ESCAPIST cookies will be mailed to you soon and please don't enter the basement if you value your sanity

Thank you! I've always liked the discussion on this site, it seems like even the shitstorms here are at least civil.

Well the discussion on the site is good and certainly better than some other places however some shit storms can get pretty ugly or at least tiring as they have a habit of repeating themselves.
Anyway I look forward to seeing you around the forums as you slowly but surely gain a higher post count and become a daily contributor to this site-and remember have fun

 

[lacktheknack]

Crimes are crimes and hate crimes are hate crimes.

The whole "hate crime" thing is stupid. You don't know what was in somebody's head when they committed the crime.

I know what is in society's head and that is all you need.

Yes. Because I'm part of a society, I automagically think exactly like it. Never mind that I'm counter-cultural in a lot of ways, I'm part of a society and thus a model citizen of it.

Try agai- actually, no. Don't even try.

OT: Gross. I know it's trying to be as debauched as possible, but after a bit I have to question WHY.

 

[Lieju]

forcing artists to change their viewpoint for the sake of another person's own ideals is censorship.

Encouraging artists to analyse their subconscious ideals, and reconsider their opinion of the art they want to make, is not.

Artists have their ideals solely in mind when creating their art. It's the reason why Van Gogh's The Scream possesses a specific color palette: it was designed that way.

(Irrelevant to your point, but wasn't Scream painted by Munch?)
But video-games aren't the product of one person (most of the time), and the artists are pressured into making decisions like putting nudity and rape in stuff by their superiors because 'it will sell'.

Even if the devs have completely free reign, it would be still naive to say they aren't thinking what their audience would like to see and make questionable decisions because they think their audience wants it.

I guess Yahtzee is then the most pro-censorship game-journalist, then, and all the complaints about XBone are gamers being pro-censorship and everyone should just say positive things about any product. I'm really tired of people hiding from criticism with 'you're trying to censor me!'.
Especially when it comes to something like the portrayal of women in games.

If I criticise COD for being linear and dull, no-one is yelling at me for trying to censor it, for some reason...

The freedom of experession doesn't mean freedom from opposing viewpoints

Now you're taking what I said out of context. Again, criticism is inherently not bad, but when it stands to forsake an artist's work because it hurts your feelings, then you're crossing over into a whole new territory.

And how is criticism against the portrayal of rape or of women or sexism any different?
If I complain that the choices the artists made in the colour-palette, for example, and say I'm not going to buy the game because it's brown and shitty-looking, how it is different than saying that depiction of some issue in the game is handled badly?

At this point, I'm not sure if you're being petulant or actually missing the point being made that the reality of the situation is nobody's making a fuss.

And your response has NOTHING to do with Lieju, so, I'm not even sure what to say there.

You would think so, but you would be wrong. Refer to the twitter discussion between Söderström and Blackclaw FM, and this video:

This isn't about feminism or objectification: it's about something so much more. This is about the freedoms of artistic expression and sticking to your guns when people find it mortifying.

I can't watch videos with my Internet-connection, so I have no idea what that video says.
But if we cannot criticise art, how will the artist know if they managed to get their message out the way they intended? And should we not criticise the message?

Freedom of artistic expression does not mean freedom from criticism.

 

[wintercoat]

I wonder. If F.E.A.R. 2 were to be released now, would it create the same level of controversy? I mean, it's only been, what, 4 years since 2 was released? Was there controversy when 2 was released? I didn't frequent gaming sites back then, so I might have missed it.

 

[VanTesla]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escapist-news-now/7559-Hotline-Miami-2-Preview

Watch the preview. You can clearly see a fat character raping a woman who's crawling on the floor.

So let me ask the all important question, does that fact that it's retro graphics make it more palatable? After all Tomb Raider couldn't even have an enemy "Aggressively Stalk" it's female protagonist with out the whole internet blowing up.

It's not even the first game that has had rape in it and doubt it will be the last... Honestly if it is not glorified and shown as the evil it is, then I have no problem with it. Those that have a problem have the option to not play it or ignore it out right so if any are trying to boycot then get over the political correctness for pete sake... I am of the opinion that those that commit such an act should have their manhood cut off and be raped in prison and same goes for a female rapist however you would go about that...

 

[VanTesla]

I wonder. If F.E.A.R. 2 were to be released now, would it create the same level of controversy? I mean, it's only been, what, 4 years since 2 was released? Was there controversy when 2 was released? I didn't frequent gaming sites back then, so I might have missed it.

Does anyone remember Custer's Revenge? The whole game is you raping a defenseless Native American female... Don't recall major backlash for that piece of trash.

 

[Lieju]

You would think so, but you would be wrong. Refer to the twitter discussion between Söderström and Blackclaw FM.

So wait... a single person (with 56 followers, the horror!) on Twitter had an amicable conversation with the dev about the scene and somehow this qualifies as a controversy? Man, the gaming community must be really bored right now. Can we have another Mass Effect game with a crap ending, please?

But if them feminists aren't trying to take our fun away at every point, how can we be upset about them!?

BTW, you messed up the quotes, that wasn't me saying that.

 

[wintercoat]

I wonder. If F.E.A.R. 2 were to be released now, would it create the same level of controversy? I mean, it's only been, what, 4 years since 2 was released? Was there controversy when 2 was released? I didn't frequent gaming sites back then, so I might have missed it.

Does anyone remember Custer's Revenge? The whole game is you raping a defenseless Native American female... Don't recall major backlash for that piece of trash.

Actually, Custer's Revenge did receive a ton of backlash, including numerous lawsuits against the creators, and the game was eventually pulled from shelves. There was actually a pretty good amount of controversy surrounding it when it was released.

 

[zombiejoe]

It's not even real in the game. You're an actor in a movie.

 

[Depulcator]

Don't like it? Don't play it..... and it wasn't in the game case closed.