So I've been playing Zoe's "games"...

NoeL

New member
May 14, 2011
841
0
0
AIMonster said:
Here is the Merriam-Webster definition of a game, specifically the one that makes the most sense in the context of this conversation:

activity engaged in for diversion or amusement

The activity part can easily be replaced with what we call "interactivity".
Thus, interactive narratives as you put it are in fact games. They match the criteria of a game according to the literal definition. Visual novels are games, Sandboxes like Minecraft are games, and interactive stories are games. I really wish people would stop making up their own definition for what constitutes a game. You do not need the possibility of win/loss scenarios for something to be a game.

As for Quinn's games I don't care for them and don't see why they get such praise, but they are free so I don't think there is much point in complaining about them.
By that definition "watching tv" is a game. Dictionaries are only going to give you a bare-bones definition of what a game is, so they aren't your best source.

I prefer some of the definitions listed here [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game#Definitions]:

"A game is a system in which players engage in an artificial conflict, defined by rules, that results in a quantifiable outcome." (Katie Salen and Eric Zimmerman)[8]
"A game is a form of art in which participants, termed players, make decisions in order to manage resources through game tokens in the pursuit of a goal." (Greg Costikyan)[9] According to this definition, some "games" that do not involve choices, such as Chutes and Ladders, Candy Land, and War are not technically games any more than a slot machine is.
"A game is an activity among two or more independent decision-makers seeking to achieve their objectives in some limiting context." (Clark C. Abt)[10]
"At its most elementary level then we can define game as an exercise of voluntary control systems in which there is an opposition between forces, confined by a procedure and rules in order to produce a disequilibrial outcome." (Elliot Avedon and Brian Sutton-Smith)[11]
"A game is a form of play with goals and structure." (Kevin J. Maroney)[12]
"to play a game is to engage in activity directed toward bringing about a specific state of affairs, using only means permitted by specific rules, where the means permitted by the rules are more limited in scope than they would be in the absence of the rules, and where the sole reason for accepting such limitation is to make possible such activity." (Bernard Suits)[13]
"When you strip away the genre differences and the technological complexities, all games share four defining traits: a goal, rules, a feedback system, and voluntary participation." (Jane McGonigal)[14]
Though they don't use the actual words, most of those definitions imply defined win/loss conditions. Anyone that mentions "goals" can be interpreted as "achieving the goal = win, failing to achieve the goal = lose". Anyone that mentions quantifiable outcomes can be interpreted as "better outcome = win, lesser outcome = lose". If you're just playing around, it's not a game. If you're playing in a structured environment to meet some end goal, it's a game.
 

Dragonbums

Indulge in it's whiffy sensation
May 9, 2013
3,307
0
0
Alek_the_Great said:
I mean hell, I completely despise games like CoD but I can at least I say they take some actual effort to create all the assets involved.
Well that's not a really fair comparison now is it? For one- the CoD franchise has hundreds of people working on the game. It's only natural that they would be able to put in a lot more effort into their games compared to a one-to-five man team. With the chance that none of them have the full skill sets at their disposal to make a functioning game.


When people start praising the lowest common denominator, you can't help but notice there is a problem.
People didn't praise Depression Quest for it's technical mechanics. They praised it based on how it was relatively accurate in depicting the thoughts, feeling, and actions of those with clinical depression.
 

NoeL

New member
May 14, 2011
841
0
0
Zachary Amaranth said:
NoeL said:
How doesn't it?
Instead of being sarcastic, you now read as snide. That exact thing you accused me of, interestingly enough.
So talking about what it means to be a game makes me snide? Geez, you can't win. How about you just be less of a cynic?
 

Jake Martinez

New member
Apr 2, 2010
590
0
0
As someone who agrees that there is a lack of minority contribution to gaming, this is a pretty interesting issue to me. I think that I have several thesis about this whole debacle, and few of them reflect well on the gaming media.

Depression Quest appeals to the artistic sensibilities of the gaming press.
Issue: This certainly calls into question the taste and aesthetic of the gaming press based on solid and nearly universal criticism by consumers, not of it's topic, but of it's mechanics. There are literally eroge novels that are more games than this one.

The gaming press believes the message of the game outweighs it's relative lack of game mechanics
Issue: Well, this is essentially editorializing in what has traditionally been a consumer driven activity (game reviews). Very few automotive reviewers could get away with saying, "Buy a Tesla because it supports an agenda I like", instead they tend to focus on the features of the vehicle - design, driving range, speed, handling, safety, etc. Basically - reviews aren't editorials.

The gaming press is simply supporting the work of someone it likes.
Issue: This is also a fairly sad state of affairs and in my opinion far less noble than trying to do something "good" in a dubious way (supporting a cause via editorializing). This is just nepotism plain and simple. It's like saying, "Buy a Tesla because my cousin Bob works for them and he's a great guy".

The gaming press is promoting work based on establish business partnerships
Issue: This is something we know already happens - think "Dewrito Gate". It's not a secret that there are business links between certain individuals, heck even The Escapist is doing a content swap with Critical Distance which is associated to Silverstring Media, which employs Maya Felix Kramer, who is ahem... a very special friend of Zoe Quinn (we'll leave it at that). That hydra like level of business concerns entangling is frankly mind boggling. For some reason it actually feels more "clean" for Geoff Keighley to engage in simple quid-pro-quo over Mt. Dew and Dorritos compared to what we've seen come out of the gaming press here recently.

Basically the issue with all of these thesis is they demonstrate some level of disregard for what has essentially been a consumer focused journalism profession. While, I know that there are editorials in a magazine like say, Popular Mechanics or Motor Trend, I expect for the reviews to be free of such bias. I think there's enough cause for concern to believe that this isn't really the case in this particular instance, and at some level the gaming press deserves to be called out on the carpet for it, just like how they got a black eye when Dewrito Pope decided to whore his readers out for snack food.

My 2 cents anyway.

EDIT:

An additional case I didn't consider which has just as much merit as the others:

Games journalist crib from each other too much, hence explaining the signal boosting of Depression Quest.
Issue: Well, you don't have be an obsessive reader to realize that often gaming websites crib from each other in terms of content. Some of it is practical like Press Releases, others are simply people trying to be topical (If everyone else is talking about it, I should do). If they're all just parroting each other, then what's the point of going to website A vs. website B for coverage? This can also create a false impression overall on the public who may not be able to differentiate the "noise to signal" of whatever topic is being covered.
 

AkaDad

New member
Jun 4, 2011
398
0
0
Jake Martinez said:
As someone who agrees that there is a lack of minority contribution to gaming, this is a pretty interesting issue to me. I think that I have several thesis about this whole debacle, and few of them reflect well on the gaming media.

Depression Quest appeals to the artistic sensibilities of the gaming press.
Issue: This certainly calls into question the taste and aesthetic of the gaming press based on solid and nearly universal criticism by consumers, not of it's topic, but of it's mechanics. There are literally eroge novels that are more games than this one.

The gaming press believes the message of the game outweighs it's relative lack of game mechanics
Issue: Well, this is essentially editorializing in what has traditionally been a consumer driven activity (game reviews). Very few automotive reviewers could get away with saying, "Buy a Tesla because it supports an agenda I like", instead they tend to focus on the features of the vehicle - design, driving range, speed, handling, safety, etc. Basically - reviews aren't editorials.

The gaming press is simply supporting the work of someone it likes.
Issue: This is also a fairly sad state of affairs and in my opinion far less noble than trying to do something "good" in a dubious way (supporting a cause via editorializing). This is just nepotism plain and simple. It's like saying, "Buy a Tesla because my cousin Bob works for them and he's a great guy".

The gaming press is promoting work based on establish business partnerships
Issue: This is something we know already happens - think "Dewrito Gate". It's not a secret that there are business links between certain individuals, heck even The Escapist is doing a content swap with Critical Distance which is associated to Silverstring Media, which employs Maya Felix Kramer, who is ahem... a very special friend of Zoe Quinn (we'll leave it at that). That hydra like level of business concerns entangling is frankly mind boggling. For some reason it actually feels more "clean" for Geoff Keighley to engage in simple quid-pro-quo over Mt. Dew and Dorritos compared to what we've seen come out of the gaming press here recently.

Basically the issue with all of these thesis is they demonstrate some level of disregard for what has essentially been a consumer focused journalism profession. While, I know that there are editorials in a magazine like say, Popular Mechanics or Motor Trend, I expect for the reviews to be free of such bias. I think there's enough cause for concern to believe that this isn't really the case in this particular instance, and at some level the gaming press deserves to be called out on the carpet for it, just like how they got a black eye when Dewrito Pope decided to whore his readers out for snack food.

My 2 cents anyway.
Show us on the doll where the gaming press touched you.

Obviously you're psychic and know what the entirety of the the gaming press believes, supports, and and what its motivations are.

Thanks for sharing.
 

Jake Martinez

New member
Apr 2, 2010
590
0
0
AkaDad said:
Show us on the doll where the gaming press touched you.

Obviously you're psychic and know what the entirety of the the gaming press believes, supports, and and what its motivations are.

Thanks for sharing.
Your welcome, I quite enjoy giving my opinion as well as defending my own statements. And your correct, I don't know exactly what people are thinking and what their motivations are, I can only state several thesis and draw my own conclusions from them.

It would be excellent and probably beneficial for everyone however if you wanted to have a go at offering alternative thesis instead of launch ad-hominim attacks against people who are attempting to offer honest opinions.
 

AkaDad

New member
Jun 4, 2011
398
0
0
Jake Martinez said:
AkaDad said:
Show us on the doll where the gaming press touched you.

Obviously you're psychic and know what the entirety of the the gaming press believes, supports, and and what its motivations are.

Thanks for sharing.
Your welcome, I quite enjoy giving my opinion as well as defending my own statements. And your correct, I don't know exactly what people are thinking and what their motivations are, I can only state several thesis and draw my own conclusions from them.

It would be excellent and probably beneficial for everyone however if you wanted to have a go at offering alternative thesis instead of launch ad-hominim attacks against people who are attempting to offer honest opinions.
Here's my theory. The gaming press isn't a hive mind like you implied.
 

Jake Martinez

New member
Apr 2, 2010
590
0
0
AkaDad said:
Jake Martinez said:
AkaDad said:
Show us on the doll where the gaming press touched you.

Obviously you're psychic and know what the entirety of the the gaming press believes, supports, and and what its motivations are.

Thanks for sharing.
Your welcome, I quite enjoy giving my opinion as well as defending my own statements. And your correct, I don't know exactly what people are thinking and what their motivations are, I can only state several thesis and draw my own conclusions from them.

It would be excellent and probably beneficial for everyone however if you wanted to have a go at offering alternative thesis instead of launch ad-hominim attacks against people who are attempting to offer honest opinions.
Here's my theory. The gaming press isn't a hive mind like you implied.

First of all, I agree with that. Secondly, that's entirely not related to any of the thesis that I put forward. It's entirely possible for each one to be true, or not true, on a case by case basis.

Edit: Although your comment did give me an idea for one that I hadn't considered before. I'll go update the original post to add it.
 

Flunk

New member
Feb 17, 2008
915
0
0
Who cares? Does it matter what you (or anyone else) thinks of her games. Nothing defeats the point that she's been unfairly targeted by the gaming press and the whole thing has gone insanely overboard. What we all need to do is stop talking about this and move on to actually talking about games.
 

Jake Martinez

New member
Apr 2, 2010
590
0
0
Flunk said:
Who cares? Does it matter what you (or anyone else) thinks of her games. Nothing defeats the point that she's been unfairly targeted by the gaming press and the whole thing has gone insanely overboard. What we all need to do is stop talking about this and move on to actually talking about games.
You don't have to enter a thread where people are talking about a specific issue you don't want to talk about to tell them to not talk about it. I know "Stop liking what I don't like" is a big issue with a lot of people, but it's not a valid case for argument or even much of an opinion worth merit.
 

Ironshroom

New member
Apr 3, 2012
95
0
0
Daniel Hardcastle (Nerd Cubed) actually did a post about why Depression Quest fails. I recommend you read it; it's certainly interesting. It makes a lot of points about why it can't really show what depression is.

http://nerdcubedactually.tumblr.com/post/96532666649