So, just watched Frozen, I think the hype backlash has died down, what do you guys think of it?

[Eclectic Dreck]

I actually quite like the movie but there are two things that I find interesting.

First, the song "Let it Go" is played like an empowerment anthem yet is used when a character is literally running from all of their problems. It's a strange sort of dissonance that I have to assume was intentional given everything else that happens.

Second, in spite of Hans being played as the bad guy, I'd point out that he doesn't ever actually do anything particularly bad. He didn't lie about why he wanted to marry the girl - he even points out that he's trying to find his place in the world and tells us he is the junior male with a lot of people in front of him for the throne. When given power, he shoes genuine concern and actually does a fine job of leading the people in a crisis. When the girl is in danger he rushes to her rescue (albeit too late). He is given an easy opportunity to get rid of the queen and does not take it and in fact saves her life. And when the girl comes back with a curse that only true love could break there is nothing he can do. From there, killing the queen becomes necessary simply because even she doesn't know how to stop the magic winter and thus the only way to save the place is to get rid of her. Other than the specific way (and the specific reason he cites) he goes about those last two steps, every other thing he does is absolutely the epitome of heroic.

Also, the Duke of Weselton's goons are, quite possibly, the most proficient nameless thugs in any Disney movie to date.

 

[lee1287]

Started watching it. Got bored fifteen minutes in. I stopped liking musicals when I stopped being a child.

you should never stop being a child!

 

[Coakle]

I actually quite like the movie but there are two things that I find interesting.

First, the song "Let it Go" is played like an empowerment anthem yet is used when a character is literally running from all of their problems. It's a strange sort of dissonance that I have to assume was intentional given everything else that happens.

Yeah, that's what I got out of it. This entire song is just her deluding herself to deal with the trauma of losing her sister, home, and failing her parents. I'm sure most people got that, Frozen isn't exactly subtle. It's got the lines

The line "Kingdom of Isolation and it looks like I?m the Queen." Should clue the viewers into realizing that Elsa has been the Queen of Isolation for quite some time. We can reflect on Elsa's actions and choices up to this point and realize that retreating into isolation is not the answer, it hurts the people she cares about and makes her miserable.

Next is "Couldn't keep it in, heaven knows I tried." Again, it reinforces the idea that isolating oneself is a short term, awful coping mechanism to deal with fear.

These are just the first couple lines, the entire song is undercut by her self-destructive mindset. I think that's the secret ingredient. "Let it Go" is empowering because it conveys a very universal, human idea.(I'm coping with life the best I can. Even though I'm a confused mess right now, I'm not worthless and I shouldn't have to hide who I am). It's also very catchy.

Second, in spite of Hans being played as the bad guy, I'd point out that he doesn't ever actually do anything particularly bad.

I'd say usurping the throne by accelerating Anna's death is a bad thing. He's definitely a bad guy, jury is still out on whether or not he would be a bad King. His sense of duty to the Kingdom comes before personal morality, which may be a point in his favor.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

I'd say usurping the throne by accelerating Anna's death is a bad thing. He's definitely a bad guy, jury is still out on whether or not he would be a bad King. His sense of duty to the Kingdom comes before personal morality, which may be a point in his favor.

He's not exactly usurping a kingdom. The queen is the one who injured Anna thus she is culpable for that death and Hans doesn't have the power to save her. Furthermore, the queen is, intentionally or otherwise, entirely responsible for the current miserable (and almost certainly fatal) state of affairs in the kingdom. By her own admission, the Queen did not (at the time) have the power to reverse the spell. That gives Hans relatively few options. Since he can't just go and murder the Queen in the dungeon without cause or station, he speeds along Anna's seemingly inevitable death he makes up a story about being married (to get the station necessary to have a basis for his next step) and points to Anna's death (which isn't a lie - she was fatally cursed after all with no apparent way to break the curse) as justification for the execution of the Queen. I'd argue that he's not trying to usurp the kingdom - he merely is attempting to save it. That he gains power and prestige otherwise locked to him is certainly icing on the cake but you can clearly see it isn't his sole motivation.

At his worst he's no villain. You can make the argument that he has all of the heroic virtues and indeed tell the very same story from his perspective and if you simply alter how cruel he is when he reveals he hasn't any ability to help Anna he could easily play the story's hero.

That, I think, is what makes him a remarkably interesting bad guy - all told, he really isn't actually a bad guy.

 

[Coakle]

At his worst he's no villain. You can make the argument that he has all of the heroic virtues and indeed tell the very same story from his perspective and if you simply alter how cruel he is when he reveals he hasn't any ability to help Anna he could easily play the story's hero.

That, I think, is what makes him a remarkably interesting bad guy - all told, he really isn't actually a bad guy.

There was also that part were he explains that his plan was to marry Anna, then kill Elsa so he can be King. This was his plan before he knew about Elsa's powers. I thought Hans was interesting because he inadvertently did more good than harm. Anna would have died if Hans hadn't brought Elsa to the castle. He dispelled Elsa's snowstorm by convincing her that Anna was dead. He was also the catalyst that caused Anna and Elsa to confront each other near the start of the film.

Really, his only goal was to become King, he was willing to manipulate and murder to accomplish this goal. He doesn't become a 'good guy' just because his selfish action led him to, unintentionally, do good things. I do agree that they could have let him be a pragmatic character, a guy who puts the well being of the Kingdom and its people above all else. That would have neat.

But they didn't.


Edit: It wouldn't even have been that hard to make Hans into a morally grey hero.

Instead of his underwhelming "Surprise! I'm Evil." monologue, make him express the idea that a ruler's duty must come first. That he believes a good King must be willing to sacrifice his personal relationships if it benefits the Kingdom.

This my personal preference speaking. A morally grey villain isn't intrinsically a better character than a morally black one. Aw, well.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Really, his only goal was to become King, he was willing to manipulate and murder to accomplish this goal. He doesn't become a 'good guy' just because his selfish action led him to, unintentionally, do good things.

He intentionally did good things for a perceived immoral end but really ask yourself how immoral that end is. The current ruler of the place is utterly inexperienced in matters of state, utterly untrained when it comes to interacting with any of her subjects, and, if she gets distressed, can accidentally murder everyone in the kingdom. At the end, when she suddenly has some semblance of sanity, her first notable act is cutting off all trade with the nation of Weselton apparently without regard to how important that trade might be (The Duke visited specifically because of the importance of that trade relationship on his side) and without regard to how that might reflect in the greater political landscape all because the Duke tried to kill her after based on the entirely reasonable belief that the Queen was trying to kill him.

Literally the only immoral part of that is that he's going to take someone else's kingdom - a person who, for the record, did nothing to earn that position save being relatively lucky at birth. Unless you can demonstrate that he's somehow going to be worse for the people than a queen that could doom them all by accident should get get flustered at a state dinner, you'd have a hard time arguing that his pursuit of the throne was inherently immoral.

Instead of his underwhelming "Surprise! I'm Evil." monologue, make him express the idea that a ruler's duty must come first. That he believes a good King must be willing to sacrifice his personal relationships if it benefits the Kingdom.

This my personal preference speaking. A morally grey villain isn't intrinsically a better character than a morally black one. Aw, well.

I agree entirely - it is basically his "I'm Evil" monologue that makes him evil. If that one speech were handled differently, even if the message were the same (that is, I am only marrying you for power) he would be entirely heroic. Of course, at that point you'd have to fall back to having the Duke be the main villain and that just wouldn't be particularly interesting.

 

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

I didn't mind it, it was a competent movie, but honestly, it did not stand out at all for me.

Yeah, it's nice and all, but it didn't leave a lasting impression on me.

That could be because I am North/Eastern European, and I was raised on russian clay-mation cartoons where a rat told me smoking was bad.

 

[Jacco]

"I saw my wife and watch a movie with friends and their lovers. Because I hear "to" a lot of time, each dog is to buy different versions of the song. When I saw this, and I will admit that I was very impressed. Disney finally step out of tradition and make a movie about the love we have for you, but this is not a "true" story. It's funny and interesting, and the music is one, so I can give a big finger. Also, this song, 3-year-old son, "Let him go," while sitting on the toilet trying to shit, so as soon as I did today."

I am easily amused.

OT: I saw it, didn't think much of it. It's just not for me. I'm not too big on musicals or Disney.

That being said, it was nice to not have the entire thing be about needing to get married. I did find it kind of annoying that it did still pair Anna up.

LOL. What languages did you use? I like that it changed "poop" to "shit." hahaha


OT: I liked Frozen. I can see why it could be a little reverse-sexist though. In any case, whatever its politics, I don't get up in arms over the PC social justice bullshit everyone else seems to so I enjoyed it for what it was: an animated Disney movie. Not a norm bucking, reverse-sexist, gender empowerment, homosexuality metaphor and whatever else everyone keeps saying it is.

 

[socialmenace42]

Short analysis from me; not quite as good as Rapunzel, but that would be a feat indeed. Other than that I really rather enjoyed it, and I went to a Mid-day viewing about a week after it came out. Needless to say: children. And I still thoroughly enjoyed it. As of now i have only seen it in German however, am looking forward to seeing it in English to see how far off the songs were, though based just on the German version I'd say they did a pretty good job.

 

[klaynexas3]

Well, interestingly, according to some people it's sexist, apparently.

Why would you do that? I just went to check that out, and now I'm pissed. Thanks.

OT: I got to see it just yesterday, and I really enjoyed it. I feel like it could have been better, but I still thought it was pretty great. Most of my misgivings of it are simply for Disney story telling. Too one dimensional villains, too nicely wrapped up endings, but for what it is, I liked it.

off topic though, when did Vault101 get back?

 

[Dragonbums]

off topic though, when did Vault101 get back?

I heard of her.

Did she come back? Or was it that other user who had the dog icon under their name simply change the icon?

 

[Xman490]

I loved "Let It Go", Olaf in general, and the visuals.
I liked just about everything else, except for the villain reveal, which was sudden but still okay.

 

[klaynexas3]

off topic though, when did Vault101 get back?

I heard of her.

Did she come back? Or was it that other user who had the dog icon under their name simply change the icon?

I think she's off her ban, because I wouldn't think someone would just change their name to the same name, and the only other dog icons were ones mourning her being banned.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

I loved the movie, at least on what it was trying to do.

that being said, I think the movie was a bit song heavy (at least towards the first half of the movie) and I would've liked more...scandinavianish as someone put it, songs. Not that the songs weren't fine, let it go was great, but just for the overall feel and atmosphere of the movie I wasn't expecting so much poppy kind of music.

still, between this and tangled, disney is doing pretty good.

 

[RiseUp]

I thought it was good, damn good for that matter, even though half its songs aren't all that memorable. That being said, I think a lot of people hold it in TOO high a regard, especially because they seem to look at its most surface elements rather than its message (which really bugs me because Disney condemning the way they've written most female leads until now was one of the main things I liked about the movie). Did I really like it? Yes. Does it deserve to be gushed over any more than The Lego Movie? Did it deserve to beat The Wind Rises for an Oscar? To both of those questions, my answer would be no. I still like it, but I get the feeling that most people my age appreciate it superficially, and it makes me seem like I don't like the movie when I try to simply bring their praise down a notch.

 

[CrimsonBlaze]

Well, interestingly, according to some people it's sexist, apparently.

It kind of is, actually.

Don't get me wrong; I enjoyed this movie a lot and can say with certainty that it's a must see for anyone interested in CGI Disney films with a lot of songs. The problem is that the villains in this movie are all dudes, and it isn't like the villains are powerful or proficient in causing conflict; they're just underhanded dicks.

In a lot of Disney films that include female protagonists i.e. a princess flick, the villains tend to be the same gender as the heroines (Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, The Little Mermaid, etc.). In fact, the way this movie is structured is akin to the plot of Beauty and the Beast, where there seems to be no real villain for a majority of the film and one quickly shows up towards the end of the film.

The sexist thing sort of works in the other direction though, as it seems that the reason that the male villains try to take advantage of the rulers of Arendelle is because they're a pair of young girls and are easily manipulated.

Despite this minor flaw in the film, it's still a fun and enjoyable spectacle that can be enjoyed by all. Just be prepared for a lot of singing.

 

[KiramidHead]

I loved the heck out of Frozen. I went into it basically knowing nothing about it, and was completely swept away. The movie was practically perfect in every way, in my opinion. The story was great, the characters were fantastic, the humor was spot on, and the plot twist was a shocker for me. I saw Frozen twice in theaters, and pre-ordered the collector's edition blu-ray. It ended up being my second favorite film of 2013, surpassed only by The Wolf of Wall Street.

 

[PainInTheAssInternet]

Wow. Google translate is wacky. What language(s) did you cycle it through?

I've forgotten since I posted that, but I do remember that there was some Northern Mediterranean, Middle Eastern, Far Eastern and South American involved. At least 7 different languages before coming back to English.

LOL. What languages did you use? I like that it changed "poop" to "shit." hahaha

I like how it was apparently a story about how they love me, but they don't really love me. Also their dogs had to go and get a different version of the song.