So Let's Talk About Garry's Mod 2...

[Arnoxthe1]

As some of you might know, it's been announced rather recently that GMod 2 was currently in development. Starting it anyway. But one thing that's been bothering me the most by far is... What new engine are they gonna use?

Now it's obvious to everyone that the Source engine is just too old now and we need something fresher. And there's been talk of using Source 2. Whenever it comes out. But I think this is a mistake. A somewhat big one. Right now, people want to stick to the new Source engine for primarily one reason. Because they might be able to load the old Source games onto it as well. Which is fine but, in all honesty, this reason, in my arrogant opinion, is not a good reason at all to stick with Valve's Source engine.

I'd like to go off on a bit of a tangent now and talk about GMod and its connections to Valve games. To be specific, GMod is currently steeped in what I call "Valve culture". And for good reason. Its ability to mount and use the assets for most all Source games is truly amazing and adds loads of content to the game. It's essential to current GMod.

But let's all be honest with each other. It's been over 10 years now. 10 years of Valve culture. Of Valve games. And Valve maps. And Valve characters. And, I'm sure I'm going to be stoned for saying this but I think it's time we moved on with the next GMod into a whole new engine and embraced a new culture, so to speak. New games, new characters, new maps, etc. A completely new start.

"But Valve games are what made GMod!" You might say. And you'd be right. In terms of the original GMod anyway. And I don't think that should change at all in the slightest. I think that the first GMod should be the original "Valve" Garry's Mod. And the new one should strike out for new ground in a new mainstream engine. With new games to mount and play with. If you want to play through HL2's levels in GMod; if you want to screw around with TF2's characters; if you want to mess around in the Portal maps with the community made Portal gun; that's what the first GMod is for.

But the new GMod should be, well, new. Let's not rehash all the old stuff because we're afraid of change. Why can't we have both the old and the completely new? I know I want that. I know that I don't want to see another Portal character or item. I know I don't want see the G-Man looking insane in a screenshot for the gazillionth time.

So what engine should we use, you ask? Well, I STRONGLY recommend Unreal Engine 3 or 4. 3 has much more games made for it that we could mount but 4 obviously has much better tech behind it and it's so easy to work with. But hey, even if we use Unity, I'm OK with that. Let's just shift away from Source and Valve culture in general for the sequel, please.

 

[josemlopes]

Its not about rehashing the old stuff because we are afraid of change, its because what you are asking is for a game that lives on variety of content to loose it all and start fresh with nothing. Sure, someday it will have some good amount of content but Gmod is 11 years old and in no way would Gmod 2 have the same amount of content in less time. Even after Gmod 2 launch there would still be content made for Gmod 1 so yeah, you are splitting the community with the split of content. And its not like you cant have things from other games in Gmod, there are even weapons from Prey and Morrowind and characters from Fallout 3. Gmod isnt just Valve stuff.

 

[sonicneedslovetoo]

They should put it in whatever engine allows them to make a proper weld tool, not a "kinda rubber band" tool. Something with a better Havok physics engine, something that doesn't scream when I try to build some sort of contraption in it when every part isn't physgunned to the floor.

Something that when I attach a wheel to a block the wheel stays attached to the block and doesn't start freaking out when I move it wrong. Or how about some engine updates that allow weird things like that gravity mod to work really well, I think a new engine with a better scripting interface would be fantastic for that.

Basically I want a modern Garry's mod, one that takes the stuff from the original and makes it work like it should. Heck if they can figure out a way to make destructible props a more reasonable proposition we could have Gmod robot building fights or something.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Its not about rehashing the old stuff because we are afraid of change, its because what you are asking is for a game that lives on variety of content to loose it all and start fresh with nothing. Sure, someday it will have some good amount of content but Gmod is 11 years old and in no way would Gmod 2 have the same amount of content in less time. Even after Gmod 2 launch there would still be content made for Gmod 1 so yeah, you are splitting the community with the split of content. And its not like you cant have things from other games in Gmod, there are even weapons from Prey and Morrowind and characters from Fallout 3. Gmod isnt just Valve stuff.

Well, of course it won't have the same amount of content at the start. But UE3/4 WILL have much improved dev tools and much more things that can be done in the new engine, not to mention that slick blueprint scripting in 4. Plus much more support in general. I mean, why is everyone so afraid of waiting for GMod 2 to fill up with content? Again, it's not like GMod 2 being in a new engine will take anything away from GMod 1. You say developers will be split from GMod 1 but you know what? Even if Garry stayed with Source 2, it would STILL obviously split the community some simply because it's a new game and content isn't compatible. And this is all assuming that Source 2 will even support old Source games. I mean, if you think about it, why would Valve put so much time and money into making Source 2 compatible with Source 1 games? The only reason is so GMod can remount the old games. And even THEN, Garry has made it quite clear on the forums that with GMod 2, the old add-ons will NOT be compatible in pretty much every way since they're going to redo so much.

As for their being community-made content for other games, well... I'm actually talking about mounting potential for other UE games. And don't think at all that it doesn't require any work at all to have a game mountable in GMod. Because it does. And even then, we all know that some stuff just simply can't make the transition anyway. Like Portal's Portal Gun. And Portal 2's maps. Both of those, for example, did not survive the port to GMod at all, and I'm pretty darn sure Unreal Engine will work the same way. In fact, it may even work better, considering how streamlined Unreal Engine 4 is.

First off, you say I don't need to be afraid of change, considering that every time I've heard it's been followed by a heap of moronic bullshit that's a big enough red flag to cover half the fucking earth.

For one, there's already a huge amount of content from other games ported. This is a downgrade.

There's not really much you could add outside of character customization, and even then FUSE and some other programs can do that for Source. Not an upgrade.

Later Source games like Left 4 Dead and Portal 2 don't work in Gmod without having to be ported first. Since most games in Unreal 3 and 4 alike will alike will likely be making changes to the engine, there's no reason to even assume there will be more than a handful of games that actually even WORK.

snip

It sounds like you simply just don't want a GMod sequel, period.

 

[Zontar]

Honestly I've figured that ever since Source2 was announced it was only a matter of time until Gmod2 was as well. The game pretty much has Source as its base as a part of the identity, the whole concept was to have a fun game mod that allows people to dick around with the engine that has frankly aged remarkably well, and I think it would be wrong to use something like Unreal just on that basis alone.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Honestly I've figured that ever since Source2 was announced it was only a matter of time until Gmod2 was as well. The game pretty much has Source as its base as a part of the identity, the whole concept was to have a fun game mod that allows people to dick around with the engine that has frankly aged remarkably well, and I think it would be wrong to use something like Unreal just on that basis alone.

As I said. the original game does absolutely sure. But c'mon now. It's been 10 years. 10 years of the same exact characters, same exact maps, same jokes, same everything. And despite what people may think, we're not going to be playing and messing around with Team Fortress 2 or Left 4 Dead 2 or etc. forever. No matter what I personally think of these games, people WILL sooner or later get tired of them and that's natural. Just how it goes. And it looks like Valve is getting more and more tired with making new games in general.

I mean, you can't tell me it wouldn't be cool to be able to mess around with a whole 'nother game set besides Valve's stuff for once, do you? And not only that, with much more in-depth add-ons and much better functionality?

 

[shintakie10]

Honestly I've figured that ever since Source2 was announced it was only a matter of time until Gmod2 was as well. The game pretty much has Source as its base as a part of the identity, the whole concept was to have a fun game mod that allows people to dick around with the engine that has frankly aged remarkably well, and I think it would be wrong to use something like Unreal just on that basis alone.

The source engine is kinda shit though. Like...from every standpoint. From a developer standpoint its incredibly clunky as shit to use and freaks out over ridiculous stuff. From a player perspective its pretty shit because it, for some really inexplicable reason, has horrendous load times and will absolutely freak out at you if you alt tab in full screen mode.

Now if Source2 fixes all the horrid crap from Source1, I'm all for them keepin the Source engine for Garrys Mod 2. However people want to be able to seemlessly port Gmod1 stuff to Gmod2 whenever it comes out and there's very little chance of that happening if Source2 fixes all the workaround bullshit that people had to do in Source1. Best case scenario, most everythin is fucked but at least still in some semblance of order and they don't have to start from scratch. More likely case, everythin is fucked and it'd take less time to build from scratch than try to fix the shithole that they ported over.

 

[Cryselle]

My question to the OP is, if you want something similar to Gmod for the Unreal 4 engine... why not just have that as it's own project? Why tie it to Gmod at all, if you're looking for a different community with different ideas, you may not want the old developer and the old developer's ideas behind it.

The only reason to have the Gmod name on the project is if you're specifically trying to link it in people's minds with the original Gmod, in which case Source 2 seems the appropriate place for it. If you want "new and fresh", go new and fresh. New team, fresh ideas, different engine, make it a thing if it's something that has legitimate demand.

It's not like Garry is the only person who can make a community toolset for an engine.

 

[Laughing Man]

They should put it in whatever engine allows them to make a proper weld tool, not a "kinda rubber band" tool. Something with a better Havok physics engine, something that doesn't scream when I try to build some sort of contraption in it when every part isn't physgunned to the floor.

This, this right here is why I gave up on Gmod. The weld tool didn't weld objects together which meant unless you froze objects in place they never truly held together in a solid fashion. Worse case scenario you could push objects through the weld and then sit back and watch as the entire engine spazed out trying to separate out the objects. Gmod was great fun but it was an extension of an engine that was just a bit crap, remember how physics was the great big thing in HL2 kind of shocking that Gmod using the same engine showed just how poorly the Source engine handled anything that tried to apply even very basic physical concepts.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Better tools

There are already FAR better tools then whatever shit you think is going to be in your hypothetical Gmod 2, not to mention Garry himself isn't half as good as people think (just at look at Rust for fucks sake). The problem isn't that it will have less content, it's that at most there's a graphics upgrade, and I don't give a shit about mere graphics upgrades. And you assume the community will go over to Gmod 2 in the first place, while the reality is Garry's Mod needs to do more than say "new culture".

OK, I wanna discuss things with you but you just sound really hostile and angry for no reason. XP

My question to the OP is, if you want something similar to Gmod for the Unreal 4 engine... why not just have that as it's own project? Why tie it to Gmod at all, if you're looking for a different community with different ideas, you may not want the old developer and the old developer's ideas behind it.

The only reason to have the Gmod name on the project is if you're specifically trying to link it in people's minds with the original Gmod, in which case Source 2 seems the appropriate place for it. If you want "new and fresh", go new and fresh. New team, fresh ideas, different engine, make it a thing if it's something that has legitimate demand.

It's not like Garry is the only person who can make a community toolset for an engine.

Well, although this is a good question, this is because it looks like no other developer is interested in making another "GMod" for an engine. It seems Garry is the only one willing to do this. Hey, if another developer separate wanted to do it, full steam ahead. But until then, this is what we got. And I honestly don't see any good reason to stick so stubbornly to Valve's Source anyway. ESPECIALLY when it's not even out yet or even has a deadline for release.

 

[Vigormortis]

ESPECIALLY when it's not even out yet or even has a deadline for release.

Dota 2 would like to disagree. Source 2 has been out for over a month.

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In all honesty, you sound more like you're arguing from an anti-Valve standpoint rather than a "new culture" one. Which is fine, but you're basically asking for the equivalent of a Ford vehicle that isn't a Ford vehicle. Your request is nonsensical.

My question is: Why are you so vehemently against Garry's team using Source 2?

Let's forget the nebulous "new culture" line and go with something more...tangible. What is it about Source 2, specifically, that makes you desperate for Garry's Mod 2 to use some other engine? You seem to bring up Unreal Engine often. Are you an Epic Games fan? Is that why you'd prefer the game on UE4? (I'd argue Unity would likely be a better choice, given it's wealth of existent content.)

 

[distortedreality]

Switching to a new engine wouldn't automatically mean a range of new assets, I tend to think that there would be a ton of copyright and licensing issues.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

ESPECIALLY when it's not even out yet or even has a deadline for release.

Dota 2 would like to disagree. Source 2 has been out for over a month.

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In all honesty, you sound more like you're arguing from an anti-Valve standpoint rather than a "new culture" one. Which is fine, but you're basically asking for the equivalent of a Ford vehicle that isn't a Ford vehicle. Your request is nonsensical.

My question is: Why are you so vehemently against Garry's team using Source 2?

Let's forget the nebulous "new culture" line and go with something more...tangible. What is it about Source 2, specifically, that makes you desperate for Garry's Mod 2 to use some other engine? You seem to bring up Unreal Engine often. Are you an Epic Games fan? Is that why you'd prefer the game on UE4? (I'd argue Unity would likely be a better choice, given it's wealth of existent content.)

Yeah, I'm pretty big on the Unreal Engine. I'll admit that right now. And the reason I didn't suggest Unity is because Unity's games are more often than not, it seems, 2D. It's used for many different games and it seems to be a solid engine. UE though is often used more for third/first person 3D games which means more potential mountable games. Also consider that the Unity engine is gated off somewhat. You need to pay $75 per month for the pro version to get access to all its features. Unreal Engine just gives them all to you and makes its profit by sales of the game that uses the engine. This is very optimal because add-on makers can all have access to the same powerful tools but they won't have to pay to use it to make content. And the fee per game sale is very reasonable for UE4 with a 5% royalty on gross product revenue after the first $3,000 per game per calendar quarter.

Now, licensing other games to be used in the engine MAY be a problem since now, multiple publishers need to be talked to. But consider that even with original GMod, you STILL have to own the games to mount them. Just because it's all under the Valve name and engine right now doesn't mean they're gonna let you use their game assets without at least paying for them first. And also consider, Garry right now is paying Valve a rather big chunk of change to use Source anyway.

Also keep in mind, if anything, publishers should be GLAD to let Garry use the assets in GMod. Why, you may ask? If a game is mountable in the new GMod, that means inevitably more people will be buying such games so they can get the assets. More sales means more moneh. It's a win all around actually. Publishers get more money for their games with 0 risk and GMod gets more assets available to it. So licensing really should not be an issue at all.

Oh, and Source 2 still isn't out. Whether it's used by DotA or not makes no difference in this case. No one right now can develop for it at all.