So, lets talk about racism for a minute

[Erana]

Its an unfortunate fact of Australian society at the moment that people of Aboriginal blood are getting so many handouts in the shape of benefits, native title, free education and cheap rent that they are learning that they don't need to do any work for anything.

A friend of mine who works extensively in the education system, and is aboriginal himself, told me that many of the kids are being encouraged to leave school and have children asap to get more money from the government. The more kids, the more benefits, and the more people receive Native Title payments in the household.

Those that DO try to make it out of this cycle, live in fear because at any point their family members will turn up on their doorstep and expect to be allowed to stay for nothing, behave like scum and ruin their lives.

It has, quite honestly, gotten to the point in some areas that the Aboriginal people are getting away with everything and various organisations are completely unable to act against them. My immediate neighbour is a Homewest house that has been passed around the extended family of the registered occupant (against lease conditions) for the last few years, abandoned, had wild dogs running around it, been cleaned up, half rebuilt, and is still being leased to the same tenant.. how allows known criminals to live there instead of herself.... and nothing has been done about it for 4 years now.

The usual arguments are trotted out.. they're poor, they're disadvantaged, they have a different culture, they are victims of the system. I call bullshit.

They are a disgrace to themselves, their ancestors and the country they now live in. They are given more benefits than white australians in the same economic bracket yet somehow do less with it, and don't get jobs. They drunk and smoke and inject their benefits. It's time Australia started to demand they obey the same laws and rules as everyone else, either they are Australian or they are not.

The worst thing is that the people who are standing up, within their community, to try to fight what racism there is and make the place better for their people refuse to target this sort of behaviour. Sure, I'm willing to accept that terrible things were done once, but it is now time for them to take the advantages that are given them, clean their act up, encourage their children and pull themselves up out of the gutter.

The same thing could be said of the white poor right here in America. Just have a bunch of kids and stay under the poverty line and you can just live off the system. My mother deals with that kind of bullshit all the time in her line of work. She has to hear about people complaining about how the government does nothing for them when they've lived on the system most of their lives, refuse to comply with their health issues, then walk in with expensive beverages that they shouldn't ever ingest for aforementioned health problems. She can't give specifics, of course, but its not just the minorities who pull crap like this.

I'd bet money that if you took away all the benefits specific to Aboriginals, those dead-set on living on the system would continue doing so through what is offered to the general populace.

That being said, I still generally support affirmative action. for one, at least in my personal experience, discrimination against minorities is still a very real thing. Not "Let's go lynch someone this Saturday" level of bad in the general public, (OK, so I know a few close-to-home acts of violence based in discrimination, but those people were especially nuts) but the "go away, icky 'X' people, I don't want you in my workplace, neighborhood or associating with my family" thing is disturbingly still palpable.
Such as a perfectly well-meaning person who felt they had to have a talk with their niece over dating a black man, but denied any accusations of racism because she "doesn't wish them ill."

At the very least, affirmative action can be a tangiable and quantifiable slap in the face to such people, making it clear that, yes, society views minorities as worth helping, and any differences that may be found between these groups is a beneficial element of diversity that can benefit workplaces, schools and the likes.

No, it isn't fair when someone as equally qualified as me (White, middle class) gets a leg up on an application because they belong to a minority, but if what people are saying about the people of aboriginal descent in Australia is true, there's also a much greater chance that they're not going to have the same resources and support that I have when facing applications and the like. Statistically speaking, I'm the one whose going to be able to get out there and travel to interviews, pay for applications and what have you.
Yes, sometimes Affirmative Action goes beyond what seems reasonable, but at the same time, I just don't trust people that well. All applications are based with some subjective bias, and offsetting a bias to go for the guy whose more likely to need a leg up seems less wrong to me.

When the differences between races is about as tangible as the racism against Italians or the Irish is here in America, then I feel it would be appropriate to talk of getting rid of these policies.

Affirmative Action is a good idea in theory, but there are some key problems with it, specifically the idea that a workplace or a college needs to have X amount of a minority to be diverse enough, and I don't think that it clearly helps end racism.

This totally applies, though. Because its a concrete attempt to attack the intangiable issue of social race disparitiy and racism in general, its going to be inherently flawed.

There will always be racists, but there are still flat-earthers and people that believe you can talk to the dead, so don't get too caught up on that.

Just because they can't talk back doesn't mean you can't talk at them!

 

[Craorach]

That being said, I still generally support affirmative action. for one, at least in my personal experience, discrimination against minorities is still a very real thing. Not "Let's go lynch someone this Saturday" level of bad in the general public, (OK, so I know a few close-to-home acts of violence based in discrimination, but those people were especially nuts) but the "go away, icky 'X' people, I don't want you in my workplace, neighborhood or associating with my family" thing is disturbingly still palpable.

A majority of the "racism" towards Australian Aboriginals, that I've seen, comes from personal experience.

It's rather a vicious cycle, but one that can only be broken by the Aboriginals encouraging their children, taking advantage of what is available to everyone, obeying the law and behaving like remotely decent human beings.

While they continue to be offered... and demand.. special treatment, and while the visible majority continue to behave appaulingly, and encourage their children to do so as well, people will naturally make assumptions based on that demographic.

If everyone you meet that is from a certain demographic, is a drunken abusive asshole, then you naturally class that group as "the drunken abusive asshole group". Be it Aboriginals, White peope, teenagers, students, whatever.

There are many jobs and roles that Aboriginals who want to work, can work in. I will admit, that for those without an education, these roles are low paying or hard physical jobs, but that's how it works when you have no education despite being offered a free one by the state.

I will always argue that the reason, at this point, there is racism towards aboriginals is because they continue to act in an untrustworthy, obnoxious, entitled, manner... were they too, as a group, show themselves to be just as trustworthy and hard working as everyone else things would start to turn around.

 

[Thaluikhain]

An awful lot of racist people coming out of the woodwork with this one. *waits for mod response*

Personally, I'm against positive discrimination as a solution to the (fucking appalling) problems faced by Aborigines as a whole.

On the other hand, the options seem to be doing that or doing nothing and hoping the problem magical goes away.

A terribly flawed solution is preferable to one that is worse.

 

[emeraldrafael]

...

This irritates me.
When did it become acceptable to be racist when it isn't against a minority?

I must have missed when it was acceptable to be racist at all. I'll be sure to tell all the... N******, S****, and C***** the next time one starts up about how casually I throw those words around /sarcasm.

Though really it doenst sound any more racist than giving grants specifically to minorities in universities, and that seems to fly well. besides, do you REALLY need to take this from them? This is probably one of the few ways they can guarantee that an Aborigine actually has a job and wotn be cast aside by the apparantly acceptable racism against them

 

[Thaluikhain]

An awful lot of racist people coming out of the woodwork with this one. *waits for mod response*

Seriously, if I don't see something done about outright calling certain races less intelligent I'm gonna have to find some mods to ask them what's going on. Racist remarks are expressly prohibited and it can't get much clearer =/

Can't argue with that.

Personally, I'm against positive discrimination as a solution to the (fucking appalling) problems faced by Aborigines as a whole.

On the other hand, the options seem to be doing that or doing nothing and hoping the problem magical goes away.

A terribly flawed solution is preferable to one that is worse.

Is the solution working at all? I always see these terrible opinions of it. And really I can see how throwing money at stuff wouldn't just fix it, but I don't know the details.

Well, I'm not an expert, but IMHO, at best progress is (slowly) being made, in that things are less shockingly bad then they were. At worst, the problem isn't being affected at all, but some of the symptoms are being alleviated.

 

[Risingblade]

Oh look the white man wants to keep the minorities down, what a shocker!


Seriously though I don't see anyone coming up with any solutions that actually benefit the people we're talking about here :/

 

[JoesshittyOs]

Affirmative Action isn't a new thing, it's been around since at-least 1960's. Given the way that Aboriginal people were treated in the past, I see no problems with giving them a little leg up to help escape poverty if they want to. In a perfect world there would be no need to discriminate in that way but we don't live in a perfect world.

This guy gets it.

Basically, the Aborignees are much like the Indians are to us Americans. We came in, and we fucked them over (for the most part), when we had no right. Because of the actions in the past, we got rich off of it while they ended up being forced into poverty.

Is not even really racist. It's singling out a culture, not a race. This deal does not apply to all black people, it applies to Aboriginals.

So yes, I think you need to find a way to get passed this.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

Alright, on the issue of intelligence, we can't say conclusively that one race is smarter than the other. First off, all of our measures of intelligence are incredibly flawed (essentially they don't transfer between cultures well), so our measures are rather weak. Secondly, intelligence is something that is not just genetic, it also is related to the upbringing and environment that the person is brought up in (namely, more interaction and intellectual challenges the smarter the person will be).

Also, the notion that certain societies are less advanced is a little biased. If you want a good book on this subject, find "Guns, Germs, and Steel" it's written by an Anthropologist and historian who specifically asks why Europeans conquered the rest of the world, and much of what he found is that Europeans had the best geography for bringing about powerful societies. Honestly, why would Australia of all places, which can support a tiny population compared to Eurasia, be able to create as much technology as the Europeans? This isn't a matter of intelligence, it's an issue of number of people the society can spare to just sit and think of ideas.

OT: I think that Affirmative Action is not a perfect solution to the issue of racism, but it is better than doing nothing. Sad as it is, people in the economy aren't completely logical and it's important to help qualified people that might get passed over a chance to succeed. It's a shame that not everyone who deserves to do well gets that opportunity, but we can't make a perfect system.

 

[Arakasi]

Teach a man to fish...

 

[J-meMalone]

In situations where there may be racism and discrimination, as I've heard from some happens/happened to the Aborigines, I can understand the argument of using affirmative action.

But in general? I disagree with it.

Often it's, as many have said, essentially racist, to one or both parties. It's often said that a black (this applies to many ethnicities too obviously) person is more likely to be considered than a white person with the same qualifications. This seems unfair towards the white person, they're being rejected and understandably feel discriminated against for being the majority.

On the other hand, it's often argued the black person is more likely to be living in/lived in poverty and so deserve the chance more. However there are many who have grown up in middle class or better environments, so is it fair to say they deserve more? Essentially it labels the entire minority as poor, which is ALSO a racist view.

In my opinion, what's needed isn't to give minorities various advantages. It's to give everyone the same advantages and the disadvantages that come with them. Yes if you are white you are statistically more likely to be well off, and if you're black you are statistically less likely, but this means NOTHING to individuals. We all know a member of a minority can be rich, and a member of a majority can be poor.

Essentially, rather than saying "this group gets this" we focus on the economic background of the person, as well as other factors that may affect success in life. This can even encourage people to see others not by race, as it becomes inconsequential.

 

[IrateDonnie]

Someone is shocked that Aboriginies are getting favoured by the government? If you tick the box saying you're an Abo, all your school fees and excursions, etc. They complain they get so poorly treated when all they do is instill white guilt on us and get fucking benefits left right and center.

It's like that in the US too. My son wanted to play soccer on a local team for anyone under the age of 12, but the coach never called him because he wasn't "latino" enough. He said he forgot but considering he lives across the street I know that was BS.His son told my son the reason about six months later, he said his father didn't want to have to speak english so he only called the latino kids.I probably should have sued his ass but it wasn't worth the time or effort.

 

[Austin Merida]

I believe that there is merit in the ideas behind affirmative action - certain races were undoubtedly forcefully held back from success, and that should be addressed - However, as an anarchist, I don't condone government influence in anything. The government probably caused the problem in the first place. Would you want the person who raped your child to be the one to psychologically counsel them?

A better solution is to destroy the capitalist system. When money is god, OF COURSE people will abuse the system. The problem with affirmative action isn't that certain races aren't as prone to success as others (there is no genetic basis for such claims; there is more genetic diversity between individuals within a race than between races - that is, more people of different races are more genetically similar to you than members of your own race. Any difference in ability is more likely cultural or environmental (poorer people tend to live in dirtier and more dangerous places)), it's that it's just putting a band-aid on the gaping, infected wound that is the real problem.

 

[The Great Purtabo]

I always wondered back when I was doing tests (back to the days of year 1) why it had to ask me specifically if I were aboriginal

seriously..EVERY test I did in school it would ask if I were aboriginal, any other country do this?

whatever they are doing its not helping

They ask you if you are aboriginal in Canada as well, although the Natives in Canada aren't nearly as fucked over as the natives in Australia

 

[triggrhappy94]

I'm pro pushing for equality, but this is taking it a step too far. There's a difference between equality and favoritism. Favoritism either way can cause just as many problems as the previous racist establishment. Equality and the the awareness of the harms of prejudice is the only real fix.
It's a little annoying to see this.

 

[BehattedWanderer]

Not sure if it's in the same vein, not knowing the precise way Australians treat their indigenous, but it reminds me of one of the laws in Oklahoma, where Native American schoolchildren are, by law, given shoes every year. I'm not talking the $10 slip on shoes, but fifty-to-sixty dollar brand new Nike grafted hot off the press shoes. In an area when every other demographic would hurt paying for shoes for their children, kids with even a trace of NA blood get brand new, no questions asked, lucky SOB shoes. Because of a law from like the 1860s that no one has bothered to change, update, or amend.

 

[The Great Purtabo]

Race in reality, as well as culture sure, may be nice; but it causes and has caused so much conflict throughout history, it would sure be nice if everybody just mixed into one race, then we wouldn't have a lot of these problems. Of course you would still have poverty issues, but they would be much easier to fix without these divides between us, without one side constantly calling out RACISTS! RACISTS! BRING OUT YOUR RACISTS!

 

[Zen Toombs]

I don't think you need to concern yourself with me being a bit of a racist. Here's why:

If I could impose my will upon the nation of Australia, I wouldn't make abos slaves, or give them any less rights than other races, (this isn't about me thinking whites are superior intellectually, its about me thinking that many many races are superior intellectually to aborigines).

So you want to treat an entire group of people as less intelligent for ...let's just say dubious reasons,[footnote]very, very dubious reasons[/footnote] and it's not a problem just because you don't want them enslaved?

...I'm not quite sure what to say.

Affirmative Action is a good idea in theory, but there are some key problems with it, specifically the idea that a workplace or a college needs to have X amount of a minority to be diverse enough, and I don't think that it clearly helps end racism.

Yeah, I concur. I definitely see the point of Affirmative Action though.

Problem - certain groups are discriminated against, and because of that they lose access to opportunities that would otherwise be available to them.
Answer - give them said opportunities.

 

[Imat]

Affirmative Action isn't a new thing, it's been around since at-least 1960's. Given the way that Aboriginal people were treated in the past, I see no problems with giving them a little leg up to help escape poverty if they want to. In a perfect world there would be no need to discriminate in that way but we don't live in a perfect world.

This guy gets it.

Basically, the Aborignees are much like the Indians are to us Americans. We came in, and we fucked them over (for the most part), when we had no right. Because of the actions in the past, we got rich off of it while they ended up being forced into poverty.

I'm gonna have to stop you there. Who came in? Seems to me when the Europeans entered the New World scene, America wasn't a thing (Referring to the 'United States of' in this case). Europeans may have destroyed much of the Native American populations on the East Coast, but America was still an idea dreamed up by a time-travelling Benjamin Franklin. And talking about rights? It was war, conquest, imperialism. Rights have no part in war, else Latin would never have spread past Italy. Rights were thrown out with the first shot fired. Do you complain about the poor Greeks, conquered by the Romans. The poor Germans, conquered by the Romans. The poor French, conquered by the Romans. The poor...The list goes on.

As for legally acceptable racism: Anybody else notice a problem with that? Not only is it accepted by people, it is accepted, and in fact encouraged, by law? Methinks this issue should be dealt with, preferably sooner rather than later.

 

[Zen Toombs]

I believe that there is merit in the ideas behind affirmative action - certain races were undoubtedly forcefully held back from success, and that should be addressed - However, as an anarchist, I don't condone government influence in anything. The government probably caused the problem in the first place. Would you want the person who raped your child to be the one to psychologically counsel them?

Ooh, an anarchist! I disagree with you guys on several points, but huge respect. I see your point here and later in your post, but I disagree that the government was the cause of the "certain races were undoubtedly forcefully held back from success" problem in the first place.

Also, I'd appreciate avoiding using rape as your go-to thing in your metaphors. It's a free interwebs and all, but still.

A better solution is to destroy the capitalist system. When money is god, OF COURSE people will abuse the system.

Hold on, I thought you were an anarchist? An anarchy would be a pure capitalist society[footnote]Note that America is FAR from a pure capitalist society. A pure capitalist society has no governmental restrictions on commerce.[/footnote] almost by default.

 

[Zen Toombs]

Basically, the Aborignees are much like the Indians are to us Americans. We came in, and we fucked them over (for the most part), when we had no right. Because of the actions in the past, we got rich off of it while they ended up being forced into poverty.

I'm gonna have to stop you there. Who came in? Seems to me when the Europeans entered the New World scene, America wasn't a thing (Referring to the 'United States of' in this case). Europeans may have destroyed much of the Native American populations on the East Coast, but America was still an idea dreamed up by a time-travelling Benjamin Franklin.

And I'm gonna stop you there. America has done all [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears] sorts [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_Massacre] of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Appropriations_Act] native [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_River_Massacre] american [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Grant_massacre] murdering [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears]. It was certainly not isolated to the East Coast, nor was it isolated to pre-America's founding.

[small]Yes, I repeated the Trail of Tears. It was kinda a big deal.[/small]

And I'm gonna un-stop you right here:

And talking about rights? It was war, conquest, imperialism. Rights have no part in war, else Latin would never have spread past Italy. Rights were thrown out with the first shot fired.

So, the Geneva Convention [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions] is worthless? All that matters is that 'might makes right', and the strong crush the weak?

Also, why is war different from other things? If we have rights at all other times, why do we lose them when someone decides to define what's going on as a "war"? And do we still have rights if war isn't officially declared?