So most people understand that piracy is NOT theft, technically...

[SenseOfTumour]

Would people perhaps agree that it's closest in crimes to counterfeiting?

You're taking something of value and copying it, and in doing so, making more copies than were originally available, and in doing so, devaluing the originals.

It is after all, one of the pirate's excuse that 'games/cds/movies aren't worth the asking price', but that's coming from the perspective of someone who gets them for free.

This isn't a criticism or defence of piracy, more some desperate plea not to see 'its theft/no it isn't' take up a full page of every tangentally related thread on here

I don't believe every download is a lost sale, but I do believe piracy in general devalues what's being copied.

 

[SenseOfTumour]

Damn, quiet night...especially considering how many of the piracy threads go! I thought there'd be quite a few people happy to get behind burying the 'piracy=theft' notion in favour of an improvement...if my idea is?

 

[Akimoto]

Would people perhaps agree that it's closest in crimes to counterfeiting?

You're taking something of value and copying it, and in doing so, making more copies than were originally available, and in doing so, devaluing the originals.

Counterfeiting is copying an idea and passing it off as your own, so piracy is definately not counterfeiting. Still, I suspect Battlefield and COD might have some shenigens...

It is after all, one of the pirate's excuse that 'games/cds/movies aren't worth the asking price', but that's coming from the perspective of someone who gets them for free.

That was my perspective until the recent DRM and SOPA stuff. I realized I was actually hurting myself and others - worse of all, prices still remain the same for games that had clearly ended a good run. I admit to preordering MW3 and I regret it. COD has clearly ended it's good run at MW2 yet I was too blinded by loyalty to see it.

I don't believe every download is a lost sale, but I do believe piracy in general devalues what's being copied.

Hm... you may have a point there about every download not being a lost sale, but if you mention that be ready for lots of hyperbole, rhetorical sentences and defecation. Personally I disagree with you but let's leave it at that.

Although if you're talking about devalue as in lowering the retail price, that's wrong. But if you're talking about devaluing the work that was put into creating it, yes - I agree.

Overall piracy is still theft - albeit electronically. It's hard to see it as theft as it does not involve physically taking something you did not pay for. Theft may not be the right term. How about electronic shop-lifting?

 

[Ordinaryundone]

No, its theft. A game company isn't selling you a disc with a game on it (well, they are, but this is legaleeze), they are selling you permission to play a copy of the game they made. For the price of money. If you play the game without going through a proper distribution channel and paying the price, you are technically stealing.

The problem lies on who you want to lay the blame on. Is it the person who downloads the torrent's fault? Then its theft. Is it the person who makes the torrents fault? Then its counterfeit.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

I agree that piracy is not theft.
For something to be theft, something tangible has to have been stolen from someone (like if I stole your car). This obviously doesn't happen with piracy.

Counterfeiting? It's an interesting spin on it. Perhaps there's some validity in this idea.

Damn, quiet night...especially considering how many of the piracy threads go!

Call it piracy thread burn-out. There have been so many of these lately. Perhaps people are tired of voicing their thoughts.

You steal the product of labor. The only difference between an official game disc and a torrent burned on a CD is the legality of how they were obtained.

 

[fenrizz]

No, its theft. A game company isn't selling you a disc with a game on it (well, they are, but this is legaleeze), they are selling you permission to play a copy of the game they made. For the price of money. If you play the game without going through a proper distribution channel and paying the price, you are technically stealing.

The problem lies on who you want to lay the blame on. Is it the person who downloads the torrent's fault? Then its theft. Is it the person who makes the torrents fault? Then its counterfeit.

It's not theft.
The law clearly states that it is copyright infringement, and not theft.
Theft is a whole other crime.

Why must you insist on calling it something that it is not?

 

[Akimoto]

A game company isn't selling you a disc with a game on it (well, they are, but this is legaleeze), they are selling you permission to play a copy of the game they made.

I agree with that. Although it doesn't feel like it's mine - impersonal, like a strange object in my room/computer. Not like my first COD game. I could show it off and say 'Do you have it? Betcha don't!' and I can play it online without having to sign up for an extra account, through a program and having to be online all the time.

Guess it all boils down to the reaction to piracy huh?

 

[Vault101]

I still dont agree with it

 

[superpirson]

I personally still view it as theft. it is indirect theft, but theft nonetheless.
sort of like stealing from someone's jerk boss: you aren't taking their money, but you are still damaging the tube through which they receive money.

 

[Phlakes]

It's product being used that hasn't been paid for, when the intent of releasing that same product, was for sale.

If you don't see how that's wrong, then you're just not operating on the same level as I am. Not to say you might be inferior in any way, just not as relateable. Is relateable a word?

Just say that: "I'm a pirate cuz I can, I know it's wrong, but fuck all!" At least then I can respect your lack of morals as being honest.

Damn pirates...

All of this. It may not be under the technical definition of theft, but what's generally accepted to be theft? Taking something you don't own (or that someone else owns, whatever) is close enough, I don't think anyone would argue with that. And piracy is downloading a game you haven't paid for and therefore don't own the rights to. Simple as that.

EDIT: And I still don't really agree with Jim's argument that if no one cares about the IP piracy is justified. At least when it comes to morals, context doesn't matter, piracy is piracy, theft is theft. But I definitely see the point and no morals are universal.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

I think that you've taken an interesting spin on it, and I suppose you're right. Just make sure you don't tell this to the pirates, they'll start comparing themselves to the people in the industry who they claim are counterfeiting and use that as justification of their piracy. In the end, piracy is copyright violation, and should be treated no differently than any other violation of copyright. Counterfeit is vaguely like this, and more well understood within the social consciousness. Probably one of the better comparisons than any other I've heard of. The main difference bin my opinion between the two is probably that pirates aren't saying they did all the work to make the game, but the main similarity being that in both cases the holder of the rights to the property aren't getting their fair credit for the work.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

It's product being used that hasn't been paid for, when the intent of releasing that same product, was for sale.

If you don't see how that's wrong, then you're just not operating on the same level as I am. Not to say you might be inferior in any way, just not as relateable. Is relateable a word?

Just say that: "I'm a pirate cuz I can, I know it's wrong, but fuck all!" At least then I can respect your lack of morals as being honest.

Damn pirates...

All of this. It may not be under the technical definition of theft, but what's generally accepted to be theft? Taking something you don't own (or that someone else owns, whatever) is close enough, I don't think anyone would argue with that. And piracy is downloading a game you haven't paid for and therefore don't own the rights to. Simple as that.

EDIT: And I still don't really agree with Jim's argument that if no one cares about the IP piracy is justified. At least when it comes to morals, context doesn't matter, piracy is piracy, theft is theft. But I definitely see the point and no morals are universal.

I don't think he was trying to say it was justified, just that he didn't care.

 

[lacktheknack]

Maybe... just maybe... copyright infringement is a crime unto itself, separate from theft and counterfeiting? The point is illegality.

(Although it's very comparable to devaluing counterfeiting, yes.)

 

[samsonguy920]

I will put out this little scenario, and leave it at that. You and an online buddy are excited about getting Destroyer Arcade, the biggest, baddest FPS Shooter hyped at all the big conventions. You put in extra hours at your job to make sure you can get it on release day, all the time messaging your buddy on what you are putting in to get this game, and how much your boss is riding you about overtime and such. But you manage to get a big enough paycheck to get the game without having to make important sacrifices to food(Yay, no ramen!) or other extraneous bills(Yay, can keep ZCube Online going for another month!)
The big day comes, you spend the entire day camped out in front of the gamestore, and get home in time to install the game for your usual nightly gaming fest. You and your buddy are going at it, having a whole lot of fun, and during a loading screen it occurs to you to ask your buddy what he had to give up to get the game.
"Oh, nothing, I found it on a torrent two days ago and had already had some practice on the single player up to the launch."


Setting aside the feelings of the developers and the publishers for the moment, what emotion would be running through your veins about then after the sacrifice in time you had to make in order to get the game? This should be something also to consider where piracy is concerned.

 

[Phlakes]

I don't think he was trying to say it was justified, just that he didn't care.

Eh, close enough. The whole "if you're morally against piracy the state of the IP doesn't matter" thing still applies. And that's still all it comes down to, how flexible your morals are, and that situation is definitely understandable.

 

[FalloutJack]

Would people perhaps agree that it's closest in crimes to counterfeiting?

You're taking something of value and copying it, and in doing so, making more copies than were originally available, and in doing so, devaluing the originals.

It is after all, one of the pirate's excuse that 'games/cds/movies aren't worth the asking price', but that's coming from the perspective of someone who gets them for free.

This isn't a criticism or defence of piracy, more some desperate plea not to see 'its theft/no it isn't' take up a full page of every tangentally related thread on here

I don't believe every download is a lost sale, but I do believe piracy in general devalues what's being copied.

Interesting thought, but counterfeiting requires that anyone make a profit of it, and anyone who takes a copy of media and sells it themselves is charged with bootlegging, actually. But in this case, that won't fit either unless the product is being sold. Because it's not...

...it's the Neil Gaiman Defense.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

No, its theft. A game company isn't selling you a disc with a game on it (well, they are, but this is legaleeze), they are selling you permission to play a copy of the game they made. For the price of money. If you play the game without going through a proper distribution channel and paying the price, you are technically stealing.

The problem lies on who you want to lay the blame on. Is it the person who downloads the torrent's fault? Then its theft. Is it the person who makes the torrents fault? Then its counterfeit.

It's not theft.
The law clearly states that it is copyright infringement, and not theft.
Theft is a whole other crime.

Why must you insist on calling it something that it is not?

See heres the problem. Some people go strictly by the legal definitions, while other people talk about how they personally view piracy.

Personally, I think you really are stealing from someone when you pirate, even if it doesnt fall under the correct legal definition.

 

[immortalfrieza]

The only arguement against piracy is the fact that it's illegal, that's it. If piracy were legal few people if anybody would care one way or the other about it. Besides, a Monopoly is illegal, and copyright laws allow one company to have a complete control on where and whether the distribution of a product is allowed, which is the definition of a Monopoly. If you look at it this way, piracy is in fact PREVENTING a crime, by preventing copyright holders from having complete Monopoly on digitally downloadable products.