So most people understand that piracy is NOT theft, technically...
- Thread starter SenseOfTumour
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The US supreme court says: "No, it's copyright infringement"Ordinaryundone said:
The EU supreme court says: "No, it's not even a crime"
But why would we listen to the two foremost authorities on legal matters while there is internet moralizing to be done?
No, it was written into law because of lobbying and outright bribery(see Chris Dodd) to serve the interests of major financial players. For an example going back a hundred years, refer to Thomas Edison fucking over Nikola Tesla. Hampering consumer level infringement is a tertiary concern at best.Regnes said:
Whether piracy damages the sales of products is true or not probably merely rests in the thoughts of the producers themselves.
Let me put forward another thought that might make better sense:
If people all decided enough was enough of the crap that Hollywood put out and everyone did not go to any movie that was obvious trash, like Adam Sandler's 'Jack and Jill,' the kneejerk reaction to the crap sales the studios would have is obviously people are pirating the movie and therefore something should be done about it.
What I am trying to say here, is the most likely case where piracy gets blown out of proportion is because the MPAA and RIAA are using it as a scapegoat for their own ineptitude in making anything worth putting money toward. Most likely the case of no money being made is people just aren't touching it at all, including not pirating it.
What we shouldn't be defending is whether piracy is right or wrong, but that there should be better effort put towards content that producers ask us to purchase.
Of course, that argument is all the more difficult due to the Twilight movies, and Jack and Jill. I'm starting to wonder if the flouride conspiracy freaks might be onto something...
However, the big studios have stepped all over fair use for years now. Don't expect any mercy.
Let me put forward another thought that might make better sense:
If people all decided enough was enough of the crap that Hollywood put out and everyone did not go to any movie that was obvious trash, like Adam Sandler's 'Jack and Jill,' the kneejerk reaction to the crap sales the studios would have is obviously people are pirating the movie and therefore something should be done about it.
What I am trying to say here, is the most likely case where piracy gets blown out of proportion is because the MPAA and RIAA are using it as a scapegoat for their own ineptitude in making anything worth putting money toward. Most likely the case of no money being made is people just aren't touching it at all, including not pirating it.
What we shouldn't be defending is whether piracy is right or wrong, but that there should be better effort put towards content that producers ask us to purchase.
Of course, that argument is all the more difficult due to the Twilight movies, and Jack and Jill. I'm starting to wonder if the flouride conspiracy freaks might be onto something...
Depends what you do with it then. If you keep it to yourself, then that actually falls under fair use. If you share it from there, then you are infringing.The said:
However, the big studios have stepped all over fair use for years now. Don't expect any mercy.
Do your research people.
http://www.joystiq.com/2011/07/05/report-game-industry-worth-74-billion-in-2011/
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/118/1184550p1.html
http://games.ign.com/articles/121/1213357p1.html
http://games.slashdot.org/story/11/02/17/0526200/valve-beats-google-apple-for-profits-per-employee
http://torrentfreak.com/top-10-most-pirated-movies-of-all-time-111012/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCkX0KcNwrI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCk9Cheiqqg
http://thenextweb.com/2008/12/09/author-paulo-coelho-supports-piracy-share-to-get-revenue/
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/114537-File-sharing-Remains-Legal-In-Switzerland
Bathesda Net income 450 million
Vivendi (ActivisionBlizzard) Profit ?2.198 billion (2010)
EA Net income US$-677 million (FY 2010)
Ubisoft Net income ?89.8 million (2010) <- Worst DRM offenders and biggest piracy complainers have noticeably lower number.
http://www.joystiq.com/2011/07/05/report-game-industry-worth-74-billion-in-2011/
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/118/1184550p1.html
http://games.ign.com/articles/121/1213357p1.html
http://games.slashdot.org/story/11/02/17/0526200/valve-beats-google-apple-for-profits-per-employee
http://torrentfreak.com/top-10-most-pirated-movies-of-all-time-111012/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCkX0KcNwrI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCk9Cheiqqg
http://thenextweb.com/2008/12/09/author-paulo-coelho-supports-piracy-share-to-get-revenue/
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/114537-File-sharing-Remains-Legal-In-Switzerland
Bathesda Net income 450 million
Vivendi (ActivisionBlizzard) Profit ?2.198 billion (2010)
EA Net income US$-677 million (FY 2010)
Ubisoft Net income ?89.8 million (2010) <- Worst DRM offenders and biggest piracy complainers have noticeably lower number.
So many interesting analogies, can I get in on this?
Piracy is sneaking into a show on broadway because you want the entertainment but you're unwilling to pay the $20 for a seat.
----
I'm also leery of the argument that pirating specifically helps sales. That's actually not the case at all; advertising helps sales. Piracy simply fascilitated the advertising; which would have existed if it was legally aquired anyway. Perhaps instead of arguing that it wouldn't have existed because the person in question couldn't afford it anyway, they should consider striking up a mutually beneficial partnership with the company for free advertising in exchange for free content.
I am loving the attempts at justifying being a dick, because that's pretty much what Piracy is to me. Just own it and accept the consequences.
Piracy is sneaking into a show on broadway because you want the entertainment but you're unwilling to pay the $20 for a seat.
----
I'm also leery of the argument that pirating specifically helps sales. That's actually not the case at all; advertising helps sales. Piracy simply fascilitated the advertising; which would have existed if it was legally aquired anyway. Perhaps instead of arguing that it wouldn't have existed because the person in question couldn't afford it anyway, they should consider striking up a mutually beneficial partnership with the company for free advertising in exchange for free content.
I am loving the attempts at justifying being a dick, because that's pretty much what Piracy is to me. Just own it and accept the consequences.
Of course it's not theft. If it were theft we would call it theft, not piracy.SenseOfTumour said:Would people perhaps agree that it's closest in crimes to counterfeiting?
You're taking something of value and copying it, and in doing so, making more copies than were originally available, and in doing so, devaluing the originals.
It is after all, one of the pirate's excuse that 'games/cds/movies aren't worth the asking price', but that's coming from the perspective of someone who gets them for free.
This isn't a criticism or defence of piracy, more some desperate plea not to see 'its theft/no it isn't' take up a full page of every tangentally related thread on here
I don't believe every download is a lost sale, but I do believe piracy in general devalues what's being copied.
Actually, the United States calls it "Copyright Infringement".Digitaldreamer7 said:
But, details.
Well lets start with the more easily put part of that. IT IS NOT ILLEGAL IF YOU DO NOT GET CAUGHT. There it is now morally wrong to pirate but it is not illegal.SenorStocks said:
Now let us go with the more thought out way this can be put.
One of the dictionary definitions of theft is this: the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another; Going into technicalities the game does not fall under ownership of anyone therefore is not actually theft.
And here it gets a bit tricky when talking about it morally. Morally it is theft. While you are not stealing someones actual property you are stealing something from them. The benefit to their TIME. They are not doing this for shits and giggles they are doing it because they want people to see it and they want their price of admission because quite frankly how would you like it if you put time and effort into something only to have people take your work for nothing? Like shit huh? If not you are lying because NO ONE would not care for not getting paid for their work. UNLESS they are volunteers or interns who agree with not getting paid.
Is it legally stealing? Nope. Is it morally stealing? yes.
actually no, that is 'plagiarism' you're thinking of.Akimoto said:
FalloutJack said:
and also no, that is 'fraud'.Athinira said:
(however, you are correct that counterfeits are usually made under the intent of committing fraud.)
Counterfietting is merely illegally imitating something. Making a copy.
((if you've already had these mistakes pointed out/corrected then please disregard this post. I haven't read through the whole 5 pages of the thread to check))
I'd also like to say draco here brings up an excellent point regardless (and i congratulate him on his sound reasoning and voicing the point in such a simple and elegant way. Alot of people seem to flounder around when it comes to pinning this down, but he hit it on the head) :
((^this point is actually the reason I thought people usually called piracy theft rather than counterfeiting or any other terms.DracoSuave said:
You're 'stealing' by making the profit of gaining the asset without incurring the fee that it entails when acquired legitimately. Thus 'theft' (in many peoples eyes). It's not an unreasonable path of logic even if it isn't technically correct. ))
I'm actually surprised so many people seem to think this (piracy as counterfeiting) is a 'new' view on piracy. I came to the conclusion that piracy is technically more comparable to counterfeiting than theft long ago. I thought it just kinda went without saying, but i guess a number of people never really considered it.
Piracy IS theft though. Why does something need to be 'physical' or 'tangible' for it to be theft? There is pretty much no difference in the end, it means the people who made the product don't get paid for it. There is no reason that stealing a movie online should have a lesser punishment than stealing it from a DVD store, even if it there was an arbitrary distinction resulting in a different name for the crime. I think the people in this thread are just trying to justify their thieving. Just face it, you ARE a thief. There is no denying that fact. I'm not even passing judgement, just stating the truth.
Yes there is: if you steal a product from a store you are hurting the store.Womplord said:
If you pirate something, you are doing just as much damage as if you weren't interested in the product at all, which is no damage at all.
Software pirates simply don't contribute to a product, just like the vast majority of the world population. Thieves actually take something away.
So theft is worse than software piracy.
The definition for theft is taking something that isn't yours. This definition has nothing to do with the law, it's just that the act of theft happens to be against the law. What I'm saying is, it doesn't matter what the punishment is or even whether it's illegal, pirating software is theft.SenorStocks said:
I don't even remember how i got to this site during some random browsing but i thought i'd register and say some things.
First of all, i pirate games.
Second, i know its illegal whatever the name would be.
Third, There is wall of text bellow, with subtle sarcasm in it. Try to find it.
Fourth, Its saturday.. i have a lot of free time and wanted to rant. DON'T JUDGE ME!
What surprises me every single time in topics like this is the amount of people so adamantly against it. Its not something that affects your daily lifes. Its not even something that brings harm to anyone, yet the amount of money goverments spent to try and counter it is surprising. I could think of better ways to spend time, effort as well as tax money than that. Especially these days with the economy going down so fast.
Things that would ensure thousands of small companies would would stay OPEN instead of ensuring that about a hundred will RAISE their profits. Notice the caps? Thousands of small companies are closing but the goverments still think its more important to make sure a few select ones should raise their profits. Not stay open, they are open and thriving, but raise their profits. You! Yes you, reading this on the righteous seat appointed to you by god, BAM someone just commited suicide somewhere in the world because of his debts.
But its fine screw that guy. He was nobody. Lets stay here debating wether piracy is a crime deserving the death sentence or not. Is it really your need to guide people to a moral path or is it just to prove to yourself that you are a good man? Maybe you are also angry at the people who get for free what you paid for even though you could get it for free too. Or maybe because they get it earlier than you.. By the time you get your hands on it that pirate can spoil the ending for you.
I didn't read all 5 pages but i did notice someone saying pirates should stop being dicks... Ouch.. Ain't that a bit too harsh? Just for downloading one of the many shitty games coming out at a retarded rate just to increase profits? For downloading the latest Uber killer extreme edition i am a dick? I couldn't help my self. Have you seen the graphics on that one? See the realistic breeze on his pants as he farts? See the expresion on his friends face when he smells it.. So good man.. so realistic..
Why is there a scene that needs to point out the protagonists realistic fart in the game? How does it fit to the story? Wait this doesn't even have a coherent story. Why have i been slaughtering people for the last 5 hours? And why was the game only 5 hours long anyway? Thats like 10 euro per hour of gameplay there. I want my money back! Oh wait... Thank god i pirated that one. I can spend that money in a game that lets you play a while longer than 5 hours like skyrim.. Or any JRPG for all that matters.
Thats the reason why people pirate and will keep on pirating games until they can't do it anymore. You can't charge the same for the super deluxe massage course and for the do it yourself course. You can't charge people 50 euro to keep them occupied for 8 hours.. I could rent four movies for 8 euro and be occupied for the same amount of time.
"If you don't have the money for it don't play it douche!"
"Blarg you" (Lets keep this civil for the younger readers) i like playing games even if i have to play 4-5 bad ones to find one that makes me think, Wow! that one is definatelly worth the money. I want them to make a sequel or something just as good so i'll buy that one. Do i buy it? Yes. Do i buy the other 4 bad ones? NO! Kill them with fire. Better close your damn company if it means it won't release another waste of disc space like this. I don't care how realistic the water flow was and how much time and money you spent observing water flow to make it look so real. If i only wanted realistic waterflow from a game i wouldn't be playing on my console, i would be having a LOT of fun pouring water into a glass.
And i have to pay 50 euro to play a game that might even be terribly bad?
"Just play the demo then idiot"
"Man seriously stop calling me names" A demo is a form of advertising, the company shows you what it wants you to see. Remember that realistic fart? Damn that game must be good. The companies don't even have faith in their products. They assume they won't go well and overcharge them to make sure they cover the money they spent making them. They don't try to sell them for less. Don't you have a fast food restaurant around your area that makes those amazing sandwitches that are also dirt cheap? He is not doing this cause his dying mothers wish was to, he is still making a profit. Better sell four of something for 2 euro each than 2 of something for 3 euro each. That guy is always full yet the other fast food restaurant half a block away seems always empty.. wonder why that is....
I would gladly buy every single game i wanted to play for 20 euro but i can't go to the store next door to get it cheaper. The prices are the same everywhere.
And i want to be ab..."JUST BUY A USED ONE!!Blarghead"
"Dude seriously stop interupting me i was getting to that"
As i was saying, i want to be able to get the game whenever i want without having to spend 40euro on gas driving around to find a store that has one used..
"Too long didn't read"
"Dude, what the?? Really? I mean REALLY? You've been interrupting me this whole time without even listening to what i say? Blarg you man.. seriously.. blarg you...
"Its sunday dude you don't even know the days?"
"ITS NOT SUNDAY UNTIL I SLEEP!"
First of all, i pirate games.
Second, i know its illegal whatever the name would be.
Third, There is wall of text bellow, with subtle sarcasm in it. Try to find it.
Fourth, Its saturday.. i have a lot of free time and wanted to rant. DON'T JUDGE ME!
What surprises me every single time in topics like this is the amount of people so adamantly against it. Its not something that affects your daily lifes. Its not even something that brings harm to anyone, yet the amount of money goverments spent to try and counter it is surprising. I could think of better ways to spend time, effort as well as tax money than that. Especially these days with the economy going down so fast.
Things that would ensure thousands of small companies would would stay OPEN instead of ensuring that about a hundred will RAISE their profits. Notice the caps? Thousands of small companies are closing but the goverments still think its more important to make sure a few select ones should raise their profits. Not stay open, they are open and thriving, but raise their profits. You! Yes you, reading this on the righteous seat appointed to you by god, BAM someone just commited suicide somewhere in the world because of his debts.
But its fine screw that guy. He was nobody. Lets stay here debating wether piracy is a crime deserving the death sentence or not. Is it really your need to guide people to a moral path or is it just to prove to yourself that you are a good man? Maybe you are also angry at the people who get for free what you paid for even though you could get it for free too. Or maybe because they get it earlier than you.. By the time you get your hands on it that pirate can spoil the ending for you.
I didn't read all 5 pages but i did notice someone saying pirates should stop being dicks... Ouch.. Ain't that a bit too harsh? Just for downloading one of the many shitty games coming out at a retarded rate just to increase profits? For downloading the latest Uber killer extreme edition i am a dick? I couldn't help my self. Have you seen the graphics on that one? See the realistic breeze on his pants as he farts? See the expresion on his friends face when he smells it.. So good man.. so realistic..
Why is there a scene that needs to point out the protagonists realistic fart in the game? How does it fit to the story? Wait this doesn't even have a coherent story. Why have i been slaughtering people for the last 5 hours? And why was the game only 5 hours long anyway? Thats like 10 euro per hour of gameplay there. I want my money back! Oh wait... Thank god i pirated that one. I can spend that money in a game that lets you play a while longer than 5 hours like skyrim.. Or any JRPG for all that matters.
Thats the reason why people pirate and will keep on pirating games until they can't do it anymore. You can't charge the same for the super deluxe massage course and for the do it yourself course. You can't charge people 50 euro to keep them occupied for 8 hours.. I could rent four movies for 8 euro and be occupied for the same amount of time.
"If you don't have the money for it don't play it douche!"
"Blarg you" (Lets keep this civil for the younger readers) i like playing games even if i have to play 4-5 bad ones to find one that makes me think, Wow! that one is definatelly worth the money. I want them to make a sequel or something just as good so i'll buy that one. Do i buy it? Yes. Do i buy the other 4 bad ones? NO! Kill them with fire. Better close your damn company if it means it won't release another waste of disc space like this. I don't care how realistic the water flow was and how much time and money you spent observing water flow to make it look so real. If i only wanted realistic waterflow from a game i wouldn't be playing on my console, i would be having a LOT of fun pouring water into a glass.
And i have to pay 50 euro to play a game that might even be terribly bad?
"Just play the demo then idiot"
"Man seriously stop calling me names" A demo is a form of advertising, the company shows you what it wants you to see. Remember that realistic fart? Damn that game must be good. The companies don't even have faith in their products. They assume they won't go well and overcharge them to make sure they cover the money they spent making them. They don't try to sell them for less. Don't you have a fast food restaurant around your area that makes those amazing sandwitches that are also dirt cheap? He is not doing this cause his dying mothers wish was to, he is still making a profit. Better sell four of something for 2 euro each than 2 of something for 3 euro each. That guy is always full yet the other fast food restaurant half a block away seems always empty.. wonder why that is....
I would gladly buy every single game i wanted to play for 20 euro but i can't go to the store next door to get it cheaper. The prices are the same everywhere.
And i want to be ab..."JUST BUY A USED ONE!!Blarghead"
"Dude seriously stop interupting me i was getting to that"
As i was saying, i want to be able to get the game whenever i want without having to spend 40euro on gas driving around to find a store that has one used..
"Too long didn't read"
"Dude, what the?? Really? I mean REALLY? You've been interrupting me this whole time without even listening to what i say? Blarg you man.. seriously.. blarg you...
"Its sunday dude you don't even know the days?"
"ITS NOT SUNDAY UNTIL I SLEEP!"
Excellent rant man, and you're undeniably correct on all points. Hats off to you, you win the thread.yamikun said:
No, the product of their labor is still there, so it obviously hasn't been stolen. It would be theft if I had cut and paste their sole digital copy of the work and absconded with it.Ordinaryundone said:
You could make a case that it deprives them of profiting off their labor, but newsflash: you aren't entitled to make a profit off of your labor. You can dig a ditch and fill it up again, and nobody has to give you a single penny for it. Similarly, you can develop a game and attempt to sell a digital copy of it, but nobody has to pay you a penny for it if they don't want to.
Profit comes from both inventing a useful product worth spending money on and then producing and distributing it in a way that customers would pay for. If you've invented a flying car but don't have any kind of production or distribution strategy, you aren't going to make money and you aren't entitled to either. If you can't provide people movies in a way that they are willing to pay for? Too bad. Don't film the movie then.
You can't make money off of a game because of pirates? Find another line of work. There are endless ways to produce and distribute games, and the current strategy remains the viable one because despite all of the cries of piracy ruining the industry, THEY STILL MAKE MONEY.
Mostly because pirating a game is a multi-day affair for the end user: you've got to hunt around for a workable copy (which could take hours or even days), then download all 20+ GBs of it, and in the end you still don't usually have access to the multiplayer or any online features, or you need to go find some private server to host for you. Meanwhile, driving to the store could be as little as a 15 minute trip that costs you $60 but saves you hours of your time and gives you all of the goodies you paid for.
Obviously, legally piracy isn't Theft it is Copyright Infringement (for now anyways). I don't think that anyone is denying that. The issue is when it comes to morals. We all know that morals have a subjective basis but sometimes it can arrived logically using experience or with empathy. I'll put a scenario before you to judge for yourself the morality of piracy.
Assume, if you will, that you know someone who has spent a considerable amount of time and effort to develop a game. Assuming that piracy was completely legal could you while this person was standing behind you download this game? If you answer yes to this question, how do you expect this person to feel seeing this action (this is where the empathy comes in). If you answered no, why wouldn't you?
Also a lot of you are missing the fact that even legally Theft is quite a broad term. Even legally theft is given to the illegal copying of data. Look up Data Theft. There is also Theft of Service and Identity Theft. These terms really muddy those lose and narrow definitions of theft that have been thrown around on the internet and also make those piracy internet memes look even more unsophisticated.
Assume, if you will, that you know someone who has spent a considerable amount of time and effort to develop a game. Assuming that piracy was completely legal could you while this person was standing behind you download this game? If you answer yes to this question, how do you expect this person to feel seeing this action (this is where the empathy comes in). If you answered no, why wouldn't you?
Also a lot of you are missing the fact that even legally Theft is quite a broad term. Even legally theft is given to the illegal copying of data. Look up Data Theft. There is also Theft of Service and Identity Theft. These terms really muddy those lose and narrow definitions of theft that have been thrown around on the internet and also make those piracy internet memes look even more unsophisticated.