So, racism.

[MelasZepheos_v1legacy]

Yeah, another racism thread, but this one hopefully has a new twist on it.

I see a lot of people saying that certain jokes, movies, comedians aren't racist, despite telling potentially offensive material. Obviously this has started to come up again with the release of The Dictator, and it got me wondering who gets to decide when something is racist.

In the above example, the people saying things aren't racist are almost invariably white and western. However I work with international students every day, and they show real anger towards things like The Dictator and Borat, and they see them as just as racist as any slur or offensive word. For them, the humour doesn't alleviate the fact that these jokes are often being made at the expense of their culture.

It strikes me that perhaps white people aren't the best to judge when it comes to racism, as there isn't really anything in our lives that compares to it. We may be insulted for religion, or for personal reasons, but when has anyone ever really insulted you based on your skin colour or your society and passed it off as being completely okay because it's just a joke?

If someone attacks another culture, however well done or however light that parody/satire is, and large groups of that culture take offence to it on the grounds that it is an attack on their race, then surely that is racism? No matter how you try and justify it with 'but Sacha Baren Cohen's a jew so it's okay,' or 'it's being used as a satire against terrorism, not an attack on Islam.' If it can be taken by the people who are actually being used as examples as being offensive, then doesn't that make it offensive?

To try and bring some sense of empathy, think about the way gamers are treated in the media. There are huge sections of the internet community who will whine themselves inside out about how the portrayal of nerd culture on The Big Bang Theory is offensive and wrong (there's probably some of you on this site), and yet will then turn around and say that the show making fun of Rajesh's accent is totally acceptable because it's just a joke, not using an offensive stereotype for cheap laughs. (this is one example based on an argument I have seen on three different forums, there are others out there for hundreds of shows if you care to look)

You can't have it both ways, if you're 'allowed' to call something offensive because you are part of the group it's insulting, you can't then defend something else on the grounds of 'well they can't take a joke' when it's racial.

Discuss

EDIT: Slight edit being made to broaden the discussion. This is not specifically about the film The Dictator, that is just a recent example of a film which has provoked accusations of 'racist' or 'not racist' from either side. If I tried to list every example of racism which the students in centre talk about then I would be spending all day writing. So rather than focus on the ouevre of Sacha Baren Cohen, which in fairness is more complex than many other comedians.

The main question of this thread is: Who gets to decide what is and isn't racism? Is it the people making the offensive joke? The people who are offended by the joke? Or some third body which is supposedly objective of the issue?

 

[Smithburg]

Reminds me of Carlos Mencia, guy always seemed like a racist covering it with his comedy to me, but it was considered funny so people ignored it. Really kinda popped out to me in one of his standup routines talking about a experience he had with a middle eastern man.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Nothing like saying something offensive, calling it a joke, and then getting upset at people for being offended.

It strikes me that perhaps white people aren't the best to judge when it comes to racism, as there isn't really anything in our lives that compares to it. We may be insulted for religion, or for personal reasons, but when has anyone ever really insulted you based on your skin colour or your society and passed it off as being completely okay because it's just a joke?

Kinda.

Even if there was lots of racism aimed at white people where you happened to live, it'd almost certainly be somewhat different from the racism aimed at other groups. It might help you understand, the same way being a victim of other prejudices might, but there's no guarantee.

"I can't be racist, I'm gay/disabled/a woman/whatever" is a commonly used, and bullshit defence.

To really determine if something is racist or not, you really need to be in the group suffering from it.

 

[Jonluw]

Are those kinds of jokes racist?
Pffffff... Depends on how you define racism. Do we want to go with the obvious definition of "The belief that one race of humans is inherently inferior to others", or do we want to include stuff like "Having prejudices against people of a certain race".

I will stick to a more basic definition of racism and say that making fun of someone's culture does not make you racist.
Why? Because culture isn't inherent to the human beings that practice it, and I bloody well believe certain cultures are inherently worse than mine.
I make fun of Americans for their culture of bible-bashing, science-denialism, gun worship, social conservatism/regressionism, and ultra-capitalism.
I know very well that not all Americans are like that. Hell, not even that large a fraction. The jokes are still funny though, but I wouldn't make them around an American unless they're a good friend of mine. Why? Because they're jokes at the expense of Americans, just like Borat contains jokes at the expense of Kazakhstani people.

See, the jokes are making fun of a culture, and unless it's done in a "laughing with you" kind of way that's most probably going to anger the practitioners of that culture, yes.
That doesn't make the jokes evil, bad or racist though.

I just don't think disallowing jokes that people find offensive is a good idea.
Why are jokes that come at the expense of race worse than jokes at the expense of other inborn traits in people, like gender, sexual orientation, etc.?

There's this whole incredibly touchy area surrounding anything even remotely racist that makes people think it's okay to censor someone's comedy routine because it's sort of racist.

Spoiler: The fact that it's possible to make a hidden camera show like this at all is pretty annoying

Even if the jokes contained overtly racist sentiments in and of themselves, that doesn't necessarily make the joke teller racist.
A non-racist person is entirely capable of uttering words with a racist meaning.
It's like how I find dead baby jokes amusing even though there's nothing amusing to me about dead babies. The ridiculous over the top evil of them makes them entertaining.
On that note: How many babies does it take to paint a room?
Depends on how hard you throw them.

As for big bang theory: The problem I have with that show is that it's humor about nerds, not humor for nerds. i.e. it's boring to me. It isn't self-irony from nerds, it's laughing at nerds. Not that there's much wrong with that.
The it crowd is infinitely much more entertaining, because it's made by and for "my team".

 

[Bertylicious]

It's an interesting question because satire is hardcore and not for fassies, so being lampooned is offensive to the lampooney (?) by default. The thing is though that if we're afraid to confront the absurdities of culture, well... People can get very carried away because if something is not challenged then it becomes irrefutable. Which is bad.

Truly succesful cultural satire manages to laugh at the absurdities whilst not being malicious. I think of Three Lions, a hilarious film about 4 British muslims trying to become suicide bombers, which manages to neatly satirise extreemism, the states response, the people and does it all in a way that makes the characters seem human and lovable. To put it more simply; it fosters comedy, not hate.

 

[370999]

In the above example, the people saying things aren't racist are almost invariably white and western. However I work with international students every day, and they show real anger towards things like The Dictator and Borat, and they see them as just as racist as any slur or offensive word. For them, the humour doesn't alleviate the fact that these jokes are often being made at the expense of their culture.

Culture and race are two very different things. There are quite a few people who would be ethnically African but culturally French for instance.

It strikes me that perhaps white people aren't the best to judge when it comes to racism, as there isn't really anything in our lives that compares to it. We may be insulted for religion, or for personal reasons, but when has anyone ever really insulted you based on your skin colour or your society and passed it off as being completely okay because it's just a joke?

White people living in societies dominated by white people are not the best judge of racism. You move into an area where you ethnic group does not dominate and you might find that changes. Try going out with the local girl as well.

If someone attacks another culture, however well done or however light that parody/satire is, and large groups of that culture take offence to it on the grounds that it is an attack on their race, then surely that is racism? No matter how you try and justify it with 'but Sacha Baren Cohen's a jew so it's okay,' or 'it's being used as a satire against terrorism, not an attack on Islam.' If it can be taken by the people who are actually being used as examples as being offensive, then doesn't that make it offensive?

Surely racism is based more on if it ascribes value to someone based on their race rather then someone feeling offended over it? There is an Irish play called Playboy of the Western World, which when it first came out was seen as being really offensive to a lot of Irish people even though it was penned by an Irish man.

You can't have it both ways, if you're 'allowed' to call something offensive because you are part of the group it's insulting, you can't then defend something else on the grounds of 'well they can't take a joke' when it's racial.

Of course you can. Things like tone and context matter a hell of a lot to social interaction. Then there are also things like intent.

However yes I do agree with you that people can have a lot of cognitive dissonance here, especially gamers who are hyper sensitive to negative portrayals but possess no sensitivity at all when it comes to other things.

Hell look at when this forum discusses social cliques, how often "jocks" are stereotyped as evil idiots

 

[Thaluikhain]

Even if the jokes contained overtly racist sentiments in and of themselves, that doesn't necessarily make the joke teller racist.

Well, I'd sort of agree with that, except most racist jokes don't include anything other than racism. There's usually no humour except enjoying being racist.

Most of the time it seems an excuse to sit around and tell each other how terrible _____ people are, and pretend nobody can find fault with it.

 

[Jonluw]

Even if the jokes contained overtly racist sentiments in and of themselves, that doesn't necessarily make the joke teller racist.

Well, I'd sort of agree with that, except most racist jokes don't include anything other than racism. There's usually no humour except enjoying being racist.

Most of the time it seems an excuse to sit around and tell each other how terrible _____ people are, and pretend nobody can find fault with it.

Most of the time. Perhaps. I don't know.
I don't spend a lot of time just hanging out with people, telling racist jokes.
They sort of lose their punch after a bit, as they could be told without the racism and still function as jokes. The racism mainly serving to add an element that makes you go "That's horrible, I can't believe I laughed at that" as an added source of humor.

 

[Phasmal]

People tend to make racist jokes in a `Ha! Look what I just said! Aren't I such a PC-defying badass?` kind of tone, and it makes me just groan. `Shock` humour is not really funny to me at all.

If you're a person who makes such jokes and you offend someone, then you dont get to moan about your intent. Offense is taken, not given, your magical intent does not make you immune to being critisised and if you can't handle that you should not be making those jokes in the first place.

It's kind of funny really, the people I've met who get called out for making those jokes jump around claiming everyone else is too sensitive when they themselves fly off the handle because someone called them out over a joke.

 

[Thaluikhain]

People tend to make racist jokes in a `Ha! Look what I just said! Aren't I such a PC-defying badass?` kind of tone, and it makes me just groan. `Shock` humour is not really funny to me at all.

If you're a person who makes such jokes and you offend someone, then you dont get to moan about your intent. Offense is taken, not given, your magical intent does not make you immune to being critisised and if you can't handle that you should not be making those jokes in the first place.

It's kind of funny really, the people I've met who get called out for making those jokes jump around claiming everyone else is too sensitive when they themselves fly off the handle because someone called them out over a joke.

I'd agree with that.

I'd also add that it's infuriating that the defenders of shcok humour like to pretend that the person making the joke is the lone voice of freedom in a world dominated by PC fascists.

 

[Axolotl]

You should be free to tell jokes as offensive as you want but if you do then you shouldn't be surprised if people actually get offended by it.

Although I'm not sure how one can get offended by Borat, I mean I guess if you're American but even then I don't think you have much ground to stand on.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

I find the "Sacha Baron Cohen characters are racist" to be a somewhat lacking argument, especially when applied to Borat and The Dictator. In the case of Borat, his portrayal of Kazakhstan is so intentionally wrong that even a half second of research into the country would show that the character is not representative of anything based in reality. Of course, no one is going to do that half second of research and it exists as a grim commentary on what people will believe. The Dictator appears to be lampooning people like Hussein and Ahmadinejad whose beliefs and governing policies are so absurd that it's almost difficult to parody them.

By that token, does it make Charlie Chaplin a racist because he dressed up like Hitler and spoke in fake gibberish German? He was sick and tired of living in a world where such an insane and ridiculous character could exist and be accepted without anyone making fun of how utterly ridiculous it was that he was so popular. It's not that much different from picking on people in school or bullying, but when it comes to ripping down successful (and evil) people when so many over the world can't, it really doesn't get my panties in a twist knowing that some people bear a physical resemblance to characters Baron portrays.

I'm surprised there has been no mention of either Bruno or Ali G. The former existed to try and make a caricature of what people will belief about homosexuals when presented directly. And the latter was a carefully formed idea of a racist white guy who loved black culture so much that he readily embraced his own incorrect ideas about what it meant to be black that were fed to him via popular culture. It's some fascinating stuff.

 

[Korolev]

I agree that we should strive to be more sensitive, but we shouldn't go nuts. A lot of things can be construed as "racist" - but that doesn't necessarily make it so.

Still, it's always good to be aware that racism still exists and must be fought. But are movies like "The Dictator" really racist? My fellow students, who are Canadian, Singaporean, Indian, American, Australian and Korean don't think so. They loved the film (I didn't see it myself).

Everything has the potential to offend someone - some soldiers are outraged by games like Call of Duty or Battlefield - quick, BAN THOSE GAMES! They made SOMEONE upset! Or, what about GTA? I'm sure more than a few police officers were MORTIFIED that there was a game in which you KILL POLICEMEN! QUICK! TO THE BAN MOBILE!

What about the Pink Panther films! That french accent was so stereotypical and offensive! Ban those films!

What about Ocean's 11 and 12 - they had a chinese guy who didn't speak english and performed stereotypical chinese acrobatics! I'm not sure if it was racist, but it made me feel slightly uncomfortable, so ban it!

If anything can offend anyone ever, it must be banned! Also, as someone who is half chinese, if I feel ANYTHING is racist against Chinese people, my opinion is automatically right, my hurt emotions justified and I reserve the moral right to call for the half-banning of any film, book, poster, poem, speech or anything else I feel might slight Chinese people in any way shape or form! I find the stereotypical chinese-style font used in restaurant menus to be HIGHLY racist and I want it banned, banned, banned, banned, BANNED! I have NOTHING else to do with my time!

Okay, that was sarcasm. Now onto my real opinion:

Honestly, if 1 person says it's racist, I take their opinion into consideration. If 2 people say it's racist, then I look more closely. If 500 people say it's racist, it's probably racist, but not necessarily so.

The character in the Dictator seems to be more about poking fun at the insane megalomaniacal dictators that did and certainly still do exist in the Middle East and Africa. The character of the Dictator is NOT that far removed from how Gaddafi and Saddam and Idi Amin ACTUALLY behaved.

But I didn't see the film - it might be racist. Until I do, there's no way to tell. But keep in mind - just because someone says something is racist, doesn't make it so. I've seen black people denounce historians as racist because they made the (factual) statement that the Carthagians weren't Black - and they weren't! They were Phoenicians! They were Middle Eastern more than anything else, and that's a historic fact! But some black historians desperately, desperately wish to believe that Hannibal and the Carthage empire were composed of black - people... and they just weren't. All the evidence points to Carthage being settled by people from Phoenicia! Yes, Carthage was IN Africa, but the people who founded it were originally from somewhere else.

And for pointing out that historical fact, some historians have been called "racist" for denying the "Hannibal was black" myth. Hannibal wasn't. He wasn't white either! He was a shade of brown, but he wasn't black. And it's not racist to point that out.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

It?s better to laugh at or just harden yourself to racism, because you start feeling sad every time someone compares you to the AIDS-suffering Kenyan in the Oxfam ad just because you share the same skin colour as them, then you?ll never survive the bombardments of hardships in life. Also, offense and humour are both subjective.

Of course, that doesn?t stop people becoming ashamed of something inherent in them that they can?t control, or trying to stop people applying unwanted stereotypes to them. But that doesn?t mean we should try and censor every little thing that might be deemed ?offensive? to a number of people, many of whom just want excuses to complain about anything remotely race-referential, or have their own little internal wars that they might as well be racist to the people they?re accusing of being racist (think Samuel L. Jackson?s character in Die Hard 3).

Oh, and everyone is racist to some extent. Don?t try to deny it. Everyone has their subconscious prejudices, whether they like it or not, because it's damn near-impossible to shake off the influence that society had ingrained into us for years upon years of oppression and misconceptions about ?alien? people. No matter how many compaigns the philanthropic do-gooders try to get their saintly butts behind (like "Kick Racism Out of Football"), there's no way you'll ever eliminate racism, or for that matter, any stereotypes or prejudice about a group of people (whether it be ethnic minorities, women or homosexuals), but that's just not how the human population works.

We're designed to fear foreigners, despise things that don't agree with us so strongly, and take the mickey out of things that seem barbaric to us (maybe even for good reason; why shouldn't Sacha Baron Cohen do a satirical film on Middle Eastern dictators if it highlights things, stuff that many of us are even afraid of discussing, in a somewhat humorous manner?).

 

[Kerboom]

I'm just going to leave this here


Shrug. It's racist if the people who it's being aimed at think so.

 

[Yopaz]

The definition of racism is to believe that humans have races that are prone to different abilities. Me telling a joke about a black guy could be offensive and maybe insensitive, but as long as the point of the joke doesn't state anything about there being existence of different races it's not racist.

However according to our laws every single person is a racist because every single person is somehow skeptical to other cultures. Are you against circumcising women? Then you are skeptical to a different culture thus you are a racist.

However the point I want to make is that is racism really that bad within fair limits? As long as we don't avoid hiring people based on ethnicity and we don't treat them any differently is it really that bad to make an offensive joke now and then? There's plenty of jokes concerning white people, rednecks, Christian fanatics and any number of groups. Republicans are also a target of some mean jokes. Should we only take care not to offend those who have different colour on their skin or should we treat each other as equals? Black people make jokes about white people, white people make jokes about black people. That's equality. That's freedom of speech. I hate how everything has to be so bloody politically correct.

 

[Jonluw]

The definition of racism is to believe that humans have races that are prone to different abilities. Me telling a joke about a black guy could be offensive and maybe insensitive, but as long as the point of the joke doesn't state anything about there being existence of different races it's not racist.

Racism is not the belief that there are different races of humans.
That's silly.
There are different races of humans. That's fact.

"In biology, races are distinct genetically divergent populations within the same species with relatively small morphological and genetic differences."
-wikipedia

Humans are still animals just like any other, and there are definitely populations with different morphological traits.
Take Asians vs. Caucasians for example. If I put an Asian man next to a Caucasian man, are you going to tell me you can't tell which one is which?

Merriam-webster uses this definition of racism:
"a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race"

 

[Johnny Impact]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3PJF0YE-x4 pretty much sums up racism for me. I don't even like Chris Rock, but this is excellent.

There is no monopoly on being a loser. It's got nothing to do with skin color. To say there is such a thing as a ****** is not racism. There certainly is such a thing. What would be racist would be to claim that all niggers are black. They aren't. Not by a long shot.

I've known several pasty-white people who do most of the things Chris is talking about. Hell, half the white people who have told me they don't like blacks/hispanics/whatever are, themselves, lazy, uneducated, mouthy jerkwads who fit the profile of ****** better than every black person I've seen (with a single exception -- yes, I saw a black ****** once, don't everyone crash the site in your haste to call me a racist).

Either everything is acceptable as a source of humor, or nothing is. Let's suppose you take racist jokes off the table, successfully. As in, it's been wiped from history and the minds of all people, there will be no racist humor ever again. By next week, people will come up with something else it's no longer acceptable to joke about. Some people just enjoy being offended.

Telling racist jokes doesn't make you a racist. Being a racist makes you a racist. Me and some guys at work used to swap old World War 2 jokes: "How do you stop a Polish tank? Shoot the two guys who are pushing it!" We told jokes because the jokes were funny, not because we thought Polish people were stupid, or the French were cowards, or so forth. By descent, I am more French than any other nationality, and I still laugh. I laugh when an English person refers to my country as "cheeseburger-inhaling Yanks." I wish black people would tell me their white jokes.

People need to grow the hell up and realize the right never to be offended by anything is one that our laws do not grant. All you can do when someone says something you don't like is ask them to stop, offer solid debate against their point of view, or whine about it. Complaining is by far the least productive, least intelligent response.

 

[Yopaz]

The definition of racism is to believe that humans have races that are prone to different abilities. Me telling a joke about a black guy could be offensive and maybe insensitive, but as long as the point of the joke doesn't state anything about there being existence of different races it's not racist.

Racism is not the belief that there are different races of humans.
That's silly.
There are different races of humans. That's fact.

"In biology, races are distinct genetically divergent populations within the same species with relatively small morphological and genetic differences."
-wikipedia

Humans are still animals just like any other, and there are definitely populations with different morphological traits.
Take Asians vs. Caucasians for example. If I put an Asian man next to a Caucasian man, are you going to tell me you can't tell which one is which?

Merriam-webster uses this definition of racism:
"a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race"

Racism is generally understood as either belief that different racial groups are characterized by intrinsic characteristics or abilities and that some such groups are therefore naturally superior to others, [1][2] or as practices that discriminate against members of particular racial groups,[1] for example by perpetuating unequal access to resources between groups

Not exactly what I said, but what I was trying to say. That's the definition of it quoted form Wikipedia.

Now can you find one source that claims there are races within humans? The cloest things we got to a genetic race according to what I have heard is a chimpanzee because there's only 1% difference when we compare the complete DNA. For a reference that's a lot smaller difference than a cocker spaniel and Schaefer.

It might be that I have been taught wrong, but at least just don't dismiss it with more proof that using a quote taken from a place which does not mention humans at all. It mention bees and not a word about humans on that article.

Now you gave me a stupid question to top it off, I will return the favour. I place two white males next to each other. They have the same height and the same body type. One has blue eyes one has brown eyes. Are they of a different race?

 

[lacktheknack]

I define racism as "behaviour that discriminates or directly results in discrimination against other people because of race". Thus, I wouldn't consider Sacha Baron Cohen's material to be racist, as it's mostly meant to humorously attack stereotypes (I think, I haven't actually watched his films) in a roundabout way. He may display racist behavior in his films (I believe that Borat wanted to kill all the Jews?), but the end product wasn't serious and likely didn't make people hate people from Kazakhstan simply because they're from Kazakhstan.