So that's Game of Thrones. Huh.

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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Whelp, I finally clambered aboard the bandwagon and read the books. I heard about them way back in the early 00s, but the recent explosion in popularity following the TV show convinced me to go and see what all the fuss was about.

Gotta say, I was delighted to find that they're almost as good as people say.

I love how storied the setting is. It feels like a place with a history and culture, or rather, a whole bunch of cultures, and the books manage to present it all in a way that avoids to much tedious frontloading of exposition.

Also, some colourful and interesting characters. Easily enough to make up for the more boring ones.

That said, I'm not sure I like the steady increase of supernatural elements over the course of the series. I find it all gets just a little bit less interesting each time more magic is added. I preferred it when all the dragons were dead and it was just about a people and their troubles rather than an impending struggle of epic forces etc etc. To put it in a pithy sort of way, I find the game of thrones much more interesting than the song of ice and fire.

Anyway, I wanted to ask about the TV show. How does it compare to the books? Is it one of those things where everyone who's read them says, "Yeah, but the book is better"? Does it follow the plot closely or go and do its own thing? Did they have to neuter it to get it onto TV screens? Basically, is it worth watching for someone who's already read the books?
 

BloatedGuppy

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Zhukov said:
That said, I'm not sure I like the steady increase of supernatural elements over the course of the series. I find it all gets just a little bit less interesting each time more magic is added. I preferred it when all the dragons were dead and it was just about a people and their troubles rather than an impending struggle of epic forces etc etc. To put it in a pithy sort of way, I find the game of thrones much more interesting than the song of ice and fire.

Anyway, I wanted to ask about the TV show. How does it compare to the books? Is it one of those things where everyone who's read them says, "Yeah, but the book is better"? Does it follow the plot closely or go and do its own thing? Did they have to neuter it to get it onto TV screens? Basically, is it worth watching for someone who's already read the books?
There's been quite a lot of conjecture that Martin will attempt to subvert the apparently inevitable and seemingly very rote supernatural apocalypse as well, although of course that's simply conjecture. It would be a little odd for him to write the series as he has, and abruptly end on "forces of Good vs Darkness" note, but George is nothing if not an odd little fellow. Who apparently dreams of being a Tugboat Captain.

Is the show worth watching for someone who likes the books...

I *love* the books, and have read the series many times over. I also *love* experiencing things I enjoy vicariously through others. Showing my girlfriend a movie I adore that she's never seen, for instance, is almost as good as seeing it again for the first time myself. I get great enjoyment out of imagining or reading the reactions of unspoiled viewers whenever the show trips across a particularly memorable sequence from the book, and manages to present it well. So I've been enjoying the show a lot. In spite of myself.

Because the show has a lot of problems. The good stuff first...the casting is really strong with very few missteps, the budget was high and got higher (although is often strained to the point where the show seems micro-budgeted...crowds are small and big set pieces are often diminished greatly or lost altogether. Prepare thyself for a Khalasar of 40 men, or a Battle of Blackwater Bay with 10 guys milling around at the bottom of a darkly lit wall), and the writing...when it's lifted from the books...is crackling.

The bad...

The show is trying to cram door stopper novels into 10 episode seasons. They'd have been rushed and forced to discard content at twice the length. While they do an admirable job with books I've previously considered completely unfilmable, the show has SERIOUS pacing problems. Watch a show like Mad Men or The Wire, and you'll scenes that are allowed to "breathe". In GoT, it's 20 seconds with this guy, 30 seconds with that guy, now we need 35 seconds at the Wall...go! Go! Not only is the show cutting and slashing the source material with gusto to make it fit, it's not even functioning well as a TV Show at that point. Always lurching from one place to the next, with scenes that often feel thematically disconnected. As to the cutting and slashing, MUCH if not MOST of the elaborate world building is out the window. There's simply no time for it. As a book reader, you can backfill a lot of it inside your head, but show watchers cannot. The show is still pretty complex as shows go, with lots of characters to track, but it has lost a lot in the translation.

Most damning is the propensity of the show runners to re-write characters and sequences to either "make it better television" or "make it more interesting for book readers". While some of Martin's later novels in the series could've used a stern editorial hand, the show writers are VASTLY inferior, and many of the "made for TV" sequences are cringe-inducing. There's the odd good one that maintains both the character and tone of the novels, and I applaud those. Others are just really, really bad. Season 2 in particular is seriously hobbled by off-book sequences, almost all of which are poorly written and agonizing to sit through.

Furthermore, the re-written, re-named or abandoned character roster is growing large, and some of it has fairly significant ramifications for later events. Some are forgivable...characters compressed or combined for the sake of expediency and keeping the audience less confused. Others seem to have been changed for absolutely no reason beyond the fact the show runners enjoy fucking around with the source material. The question to ask is always "Was this a necessary change for the medium?" and/or "Did making this change result in a better *show*?". The answer is almost invariably "no". The best sequences are unerringly the ones lifted almost word for word from the book. Often unspoiled (unsullied) readers will be complaining about how X, Y or Z doesn't make sense, or how character X, Y or Z is showing inconsistent or weird motivations, and they'll chalk it up to "bad writing" on Martin's part, and I have to sit there grinding my teeth because the show either dropped essential context or re-wrote something or someone to the point where it no longer made any particular sense.

All that said, it's a strong enough show. Is it comparable to the best fare on television? Not really. But it's better than average. In some ways its very worth it. To see Dinklage's Tyrion, or Coster-Waldau's Jaime, or Maisie Williams Arya. Especially to see Charles Dance's Tywin. To hear some of the TRULY excellent music they've composed (their title sequence is phenomenal, and their "Rains of Castamere" as well). The show does an admirable job bringing extraordinarily difficult books to a different format, even if it stumbles frequently. If you have a high tolerance for seeing books arrive on screen in a highly mutilated state, you'll probably enjoy GoT. If not, you can still give it a cursory look, just be prepared.

PS - Also keep in mind the current plan is 7 seasons, which will make the last stretch of the show comically and disastrously rushed unless they simply abandon the source material entirely.
 

hazabaza1

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Nov 26, 2008
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I've only read a of the first book but it seems like the TV show is at least paced a lot better. It's got less focus on minor character than the books from what I can tell but I think it's really great. Acting's solid, everything feels nice and authentic.

For the neuter part... like what, the blood and gore and titties? There's still a good amount of that. S3 E9 man. Jesus. Doesn't seem like there's a massive amount of supernatural stuff but we're only halfway through book 3 so we've only got
Dragons, walkers and the lord of light shebang what with the coming to life and the shadows killing people and it's all weird and stuff.

The Wykydtron said:
I've got to hand it to the kid who played him
Fun fact: Jack Gleeson is actually 21. Baby face ahoy.
 

The Wykydtron

"Emotions are very important!"
Sep 23, 2010
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I've just finished the first book and it's damn good. I watched the whole first season and roundabout half the second season of the TV show and it actually helped me pick up the book again because I got so sick of the character swapping early on before you know who everyone is.

Where is the next Tyrion chapter? Just give me more Tyrion.

"I'm not a cripple!"

"Then i'm not a dwarf! My mother will be so happy!"

Fuckin' Tyrion.

Apparently the second one is dull according to my friend, i'm 108 pages in and it seems fine. Then again, his taste in books can be a little off at times... I mean he has a good collection but the phrase "he thinks Twilight is good" hovers over anything book related.

Oh and Joffrey is so, so, so fun to watch/read. I've got to hand it to the kid who played him, he did a damn good job. Actually all the actors were great in the TV show.
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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GSP66 said:
Just be prepared to throw your novel across the room when the sadder parts are gotten to. Also the fourth novel is pretty weak.
Oh, I've already finished all the books, so any novel-hurling is done with for now.

I thought the fourth book was fine. Granted, not much actually happened, but that's an inevitable side effect of trying to keep so damn many plates spinning all at once.

BloatedGuppy said:
[The snip to end all snips.]
Yeah, I was wondering how they'd managed to squeeze those books, even the first two, into single seasons of TV. I'd assumed they were long seasons, like 20+ episodes each.

Ah well.

Guess I'll at least check it out, if only so I'll finally know how to pronounce "Daenerys".
 

Deshin

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I hate going into discussions about "book vs tv show" because no matter what it is they all end up the same way: people will always say the book is better because it's just a high road to take in a conversation. Books imply knowledge and a scholastic mind and sometimes that brings about consumer-bias much like what Jim mentioned about coffee. "Most people like it light and with milk but whenever asked they'll always say they like a dark roast."

Full disclosure here. I've not read the books and I'm sure they're excellent but here's what really does it for me when it comes to book vs television arguments: A book is written by one author (typically) and all that comes of that is a single person's talent at writing and imagination. That is admirable, really it is. But with the tv series you've got the writers, the directors, the actors, the locations, the costume designers, the music, a full culmination that is easily greater than the sum of its seperate parts.

Sure the writing in the book is brilliant, and that's all on the author. But when you add in brilliant writing, delivered by a brilliant actor, on a brilliant set, with brilliant ambiance, it really is a unique experience that has no real equal. Now sure I'll probably be hit with "read more books, philistine" but part of the reason I love movies and video games so much is because you can see a culmination of multiple people's talents in a single entity.

The TV show is really a work of art and I'd say the only downfall is sometimes the pacing is all over the place. The last episode of season 3 felt very rushed without giving a real sense of closure. But that's a small price to pay for the other positives the show brings to the table. It's expertly written, the casting is damn near flawless, the locations feel just right, and the story though large in scope is manageable and believable. Watch it, you won't be disappointed.
 

shrekfan246

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May 26, 2011
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I've just started reading the first one, myself, and I'm really liking it so far.

I've had two of the more talked-about events spoiled for myself, but the content of those two spoilers are also kinda what raised my intrigue at reading the series in the first place.

But yeah. Sometimes things do live up to the hype after all.
 

Uszi

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Zhukov said:
Guess I'll at least check it out, if only so I'll finally know how to pronounce "Daenerys".
Den-Air-Us is how they do it in the show.

But Hermione and Daenerys were two characters who's names I read in my own head in a drastically different fashion then they're intended to be pronounced.

Er, yeah, I like the shows quite a bit. It's definitely like a different chef cooking your favorite dish, similar, but subtley different and worth experiencing.

Which I like better is hard to say. The show I think does a better job of rounding out important characters and pacing the narrative, but it does this by making some of the minor characters absorb the minor minor characters, i.e. they combine Gendry and Edric Storm instead of having two of Robert Baratheon's bastards running around. Also, Strong Belwas was hands down my favorite character, and he is cut from the show.

I'm still a little bitter I won't get to see Strong Belwas wipe his ass with the cloak of the Champion of Mareen.
 

Nouw

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My biggest gripe with the t.v. show compared to the books is how they handled Stannis. Err... /r/asoiaf [http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1g16h6/spoilers_asoss03e10_is_the_show_trying_to_take/] explains it better than me. [http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1g3hjz/spoilers_all_why_we_should_worry_about_stannis_in/] (Spoilers for up to Season 3. Book spoilers should be tagged as far as I read.)

This kind of change makes no sense for me, at all.
 

Ryan Hughes

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Well, the books are almost as good as people say they are, true. George Martin's prose starts lagging around the middle of book three, though, so be prepared for that. What many people do not understand is that the books are a blend of western fantasy and what is called "classical" Chinese literature. Romance of the Three Kingdoms and Water Margin, to be exact. If you like the political intrigue side of the story, then I suggest you read those two, as they are classics, and greatly outshine Martin's work. I actually agree with you that the "fantasy" elements of the series are not that interesting, as the difference between someone who is a good fantasy author and a poor one come down to whether or not they were inspired by George MacDonald's poem "My Two Geniuses," apparently.

As far as the TV show, it has good acting, but is otherwise terrible. I find the fans of the show to be meager mongoloids hanging onto the coattails of a decent set of novels.

*Edit* Interestingly enough MacDonald's poem "My Two Geniuses" is about his struggle with his opium addiction, but this was not known to either JRR Tolkien or CS Lewis, who sited the work as one of their primary inspirations for their fantasy.
 

DugMachine

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The show is pretty awesome and stays true to the books for the most part. I'm only worried that the books will soon become too much for the 10 episode a season show and they will be forced to butcher the story. Even this last season felt a little rushed too me but the Red Wedding was absolutely brilliant.
 

Xathos

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As someone who has never read the books, I find the TV show to be pretty damn good. I never really feel lost in what's happening, and though I've heard they've gotten rid of many minor characters and given their roles to others, I never once thought of something being out of character. The acting is really done well, the special effects never seem that fake, and the pacing is good as well. You do have several awkward bits where you only see one character like Jon for example, showing up in an episode for barely 2 minutes and never seeing him again till the next episode, but I've learned to get over it. My older sister who has read most of the books says she likes the changes they make in the show for the most part, as it allows for interesting pairings that don't happen in the book and make certain plot lines less confusing for a television audience given the amount of episodes they have to work with. There has never been a change that she has truly hated or felt wasn't justifiable in some way, so take that for what its worth I guess.

Season 1 and 2 are especially good, and while Season 3 was done well also, I found it to be just slightly lacking in the tension and excitement (as in very rarely was I waiting impatiently for next week's episode). Then again, while S1 and S2 are pretty much Book 1 and 2, Season 3 isn't the whole of Book 3, just a majority of it I think, so that might be a reason. Season 4 is suppose to have the rest of Book 3 and the beginning Book 4, from what I remember reading.

The only really negative I can think of is the budget. While it is an expensive show and I do feel like they make the most of what they have and never really waste anything, there are times where I'm like, "Yup, they are saving their budget for something big" or "I have a feeling this scene should have WAY more people in it". But again, I've learned to accept it.

If I could, I would buy it on DVD/Blu-ray for cheap, and only because paying $60 for 10 episodes (or however much it costs, its a lot I know that) just seems a bit too much, even for GoT.
 

Mordekaien

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Zhukov said:
Whelp, I finally clambered aboard the bandwagon and read the books. I heard about them way back in the early 00s, but the recent explosion in popularity following the TV show convinced me to go and see what all the fuss was about.

Gotta say, I was delighted to find that they're almost as good as people say.

I love how storied the setting is. It feels like a place with a history and culture, or rather, a whole bunch of cultures, and the books manage to present it all in a way that avoids to much tedious frontloading of exposition.

Also, some colourful and interesting characters. Easily enough to make up for the more boring ones.

That said, I'm not sure I like the steady increase of supernatural elements over the course of the series. I find it all gets just a little bit less interesting each time more magic is added. I preferred it when all the dragons were dead and it was just about a people and their troubles rather than an impending struggle of epic forces etc etc. To put it in a pithy sort of way, I find the game of thrones much more interesting than the song of ice and fire.

Anyway, I wanted to ask about the TV show. How does it compare to the books? Is it one of those things where everyone who's read them says, "Yeah, but the book is better"? Does it follow the plot closely or go and do its own thing? Did they have to neuter it to get it onto TV screens? Basically, is it worth watching for someone who's already read the books?
The show's not so bad... it stumbles sometimes, has some characters merged together/left out and some events are made way different than in the books, but it's still pretty close- and it's still fun to watch even though you see the inconsistencies. Definitely one of the better shows out there. Given the sheer scope of the books they actually made it feel like a real world that feels alive, and that's no small feat to do on TV these days. And I like some of the changes that they made- most of them are justified and are small enough not to tarnish your enjoyment.
 

Glongpre

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Deshin said:
I hate going into discussions about "book vs tv show" because no matter what it is they all end up the same way: people will always say the book is better because it's just a high road to take in a conversation. Books imply knowledge and a scholastic mind and sometimes that brings about consumer-bias much like what Jim mentioned about coffee. "Most people like it light and with milk but whenever asked they'll always say they like a dark roast".
I disagree. People say the book is better because inevitably the show will have to cut content. Sometimes it is the little things that an executive might not find important but makes a big difference in how you view a character or event. Sometimes they will change entire plots which is never usually for the better.


One awful part at the end of season 2....






....is when sam stares eye to eye with a white walker but then nothing happens. Like what? Completely against how walkers operate. Although a change that worked for the most part was Talisa Rob's new wife, but that was largely unnecessary, they could have gone into more detail elsewhere.

Also, I found the ridiculous amount of sex took away time from events that could have been expanded or they could have brought more events in from the book. Like I have porn! Am I right?!

Anyway, book is leagues better.
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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SecretNegative said:
The TV-show is very good, in relation to the books. Unless you're a purist who pretty much wants every single thing identical to the books, I don't think you're going to be dissapointed. There's a few changes here and there, but overall they have stucken very closely to the source material.

The second season is a bit weaker than the third and the first, most because of the pacing problems in the second book, and thus it can feel a bit jumbled. The first season is definitely the best, or all least, it's structure is the most conistent.

I'd really say Game of Thrones is the best fantasy TV-Show that has been been, everything (escept the pacing and the writing in a instances) is top notch. Really go watch it, like, right now. DO IT NAOUGH!
Oh, I've watched it.

On its own merits it's okay. Definitely watchable.

Compared to the books it's borderline garbage, redeemed by some really good casting and performances.
 

GrimTuesday

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May 21, 2009
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Deshin said:
I hate going into discussions about "book vs tv show" because no matter what it is they all end up the same way: people will always say the book is better because it's just a high road to take in a conversation. Books imply knowledge and a scholastic mind and sometimes that brings about consumer-bias much like what Jim mentioned about coffee. "Most people like it light and with milk but whenever asked they'll always say they like a dark roast."

Full disclosure here. I've not read the books and I'm sure they're excellent but here's what really does it for me when it comes to book vs television arguments: A book is written by one author (typically) and all that comes of that is a single person's talent at writing and imagination. That is admirable, really it is. But with the tv series you've got the writers, the directors, the actors, the locations, the costume designers, the music, a full culmination that is easily greater than the sum of its seperate parts.

Sure the writing in the book is brilliant, and that's all on the author. But when you add in brilliant writing, delivered by a brilliant actor, on a brilliant set, with brilliant ambiance, it really is a unique experience that has no real equal. Now sure I'll probably be hit with "read more books, philistine" but part of the reason I love movies and video games so much is because you can see a culmination of multiple people's talents in a single entity.

The TV show is really a work of art and I'd say the only downfall is sometimes the pacing is all over the place. The last episode of season 3 felt very rushed without giving a real sense of closure. But that's a small price to pay for the other positives the show brings to the table. It's expertly written, the casting is damn near flawless, the locations feel just right, and the story though large in scope is manageable and believable. Watch it, you won't be disappointed.
No, just no. Its not a matter of people acting like the books are superior just to seem more intelligent or cultured, it the fact that the books are 100% undeniably better, and I would encourage everyone to read them. They may not have acting or the writing (which isn't always excellent, in fact most of the excellent parts are directly from the books, and the shitty scenes are pretty much all the work of the show writers) but they deliver a story that is far richer and exponentially more wonderful than the story that the show is trying to tell in ten episode seasons. Yeah, the acting is good, but the characters in the books are more fleshed out, and while it is a joy to watch the fine actors they have in the show, they are much more fleshed out in the books, and you develop much more of an emotional bond with them. In addition, no matter how well done the locations in the TV show are, they cannot truly compare to the wondrous descriptions that GRRM gives in the books, and the sets pale in comparison to the images those descriptions evoke in your mind.

So no, I'm not going to call you a philistine or demand you read the books, but I will tell you that I think that people who don't read the books are cheating themselves out of the true depth of a wonderful series.

Ryan Hughes said:
As far as the TV show, it has good acting, but is otherwise terrible. I find the fans of the show to be meager mongoloids hanging onto the coattails of a decent set of novels.
That was harsh... but not entirely wrong. I get kind of irritated when I hear someone say they don't want to read the books so they don't spoil the show. I find that reading the books is a far better way to experience the story, because the show is too fast paced, and you never really get to know a character like you do in the books, they are just better realized characters in the books, and because its told from a point of view style, you learn about the characters, and you get to know their hopes, their dreams, and all that helps to understand, and become emotionally attached, and its an all around a better experience, because you're far more invested in the characters.

*Edit* Interestingly enough MacDonald's poem "My Two Geniuses" is about his struggle with his opium addiction, but this was not known to either JRR Tolkien or CS Lewis, who sited the work as one of their primary inspirations for their fantasy.
Not to derail, but I don't consider Tolkien to be that good of a writer. His world is spectacularly realized, and the mythos is fantastic, but his prose are wooden and his characters fairly one dimension (Except for Boromir and Faramir, who I found to be the most nuanced characters on the books). If he was writing a history book of Middle Earth, I would think it a fantastic piece of literature, but he was not very adept at telling a story in a narrative fashion.

I also don't much care for C.S. Lewis, but that's more because I find his books to be far too preachy.
 

Ryan Hughes

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GrimTuesday said:
S
Ryan Hughes said:
As far as the TV show, it has good acting, but is otherwise terrible. I find the fans of the show to be meager mongoloids hanging onto the coattails of a decent set of novels.
That was harsh... but not entirely wrong. I get kind of irritated when I hear someone say they don't want to read the books so they don't spoil the show. I find that reading the books is a far better way to experience the story, because the show is too fast paced, and you never really get to know a character like you do in the books, they are just better realized characters in the books, and because its told from a point of view style, you learn about the characters, and you get to know their hopes, their dreams, and all that helps to understand, and become emotionally attached, and its an all around a better experience, because you're far more invested in the characters.

*Edit* Interestingly enough MacDonald's poem "My Two Geniuses" is about his struggle with his opium addiction, but this was not known to either JRR Tolkien or CS Lewis, who sited the work as one of their primary inspirations for their fantasy.
Not to derail, but I don't consider Tolkien to be that good of a writer. His world is spectacularly realized, and the mythos is fantastic, but his prose are wooden and his characters fairly one dimension (Except for Boromir and Faramir, who I found to be the most nuanced characters on the books). If he was writing a history book of Middle Earth, I would think it a fantastic piece of literature, but he was not very adept at telling a story in a narrative fashion.

I also don't much care for C.S. Lewis, but that's more because I find his books to be far too preachy.
Tolkien's Characters are largely allegorical. He feared not only the industrialization spreading from London and Liverpool, but also the archetypical hero figures that became prominent during WWI and WWII, becoming modern-day Beowulf or sorts. Thus, his answer was to make the Hobbits themselves the "heroes" of the great adventure, to show that goodness not necessarily takes the form of a warrior-hero. I can understand how you see them as one-dimensional, but I simply disagree in light of this.

Quoting "Fellowship", page 131:
"When they caught his words again they found that he had now wandered into strange regions beyond their memory and beyond their waking thought, into times when the world was wider, and the seas flowed straight tot he western Shore; and still on and back Tom went singing out into ancient starlight, when only the Elf-sires were awake. . . The hobbits sat still before him, enchanted; and it seemed as if, under the spell of his words, the wind had gone, and the clouds had dried up, and the day had been withdrawn, and darkness had come from east and west, and all the sky was filled with the light of white stars."

Tolkien's prose is there if you search for it. However, it inevitably dries up during the action and battle sequences. But, when it is present, it is far superior to other fantasy writers do to the fact that Tolkien can allow the mysterious to be mysterious, eschewing the need to merely explain while concentrating on the experience of the moment. This is what I was talking about when I said that MacDonald is necessary for good fantasy writing.

Lewis often comes off as "preachy," yes, but that is really often the fault of how he is interpreted and not based int he text. Did you know that after he returned from service in WWI he write a poem that called God a "blackguard?" He was not a Christian until his thirties, and he is more preaching to his own former self than to the reader, trying to correct and dissuade his younger self from the -understandably- embittering experience he had in WWI. Preachy? perhaps, but he practiced what he preached, so at least that.