So um...What was so bad about Final Fantasy XIII?

Mister K

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OK, my reasons for thinking that this game was not good:
1. Characters. They were boring, annoying and simply not interesting. Aside from Sazh, for he is mighty fine and was my "leader" character.
2. Story. It started nice, but I think that game devs quickly found out that they don't know what to do with its middle and the ending parts.
3. Lack of MP. I'm fine with battle system, but complete lack of any resource for spells is... well... not right. What stops me from spamming ultimate spells? Oh, and auto-healing after every battle too. Just too damn easy.
 

viranimus

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I really never understood most of the criticism. Yes it is linear in the first half. No that is not even remotely a problem because it made absolute sense. These people were being hunted. Having the ability to wander and explore is not logical when your survival depends on you getting from point A, to task B, and then moving onto the next target.

The game doesnt really allow you a lot of decision making options. Really, show me a final fantasy game that does, that offers anything other than cosmetic options that dont end in "You might not like it, but youre going to do it either way" options.

Personally, I wasnt a real fan of the class system. Just felt off to me. The combat system... ehh, excluding say XII and the MMOs, what final fantasy game has had game play that was a lot more advance than "Press X to win"?

It certainly wasnt a bad game by any measure. For me there were two things that killed it.

A: Being supposedly crafted for a western audience and still being the same ole nonsensical anime trope riddled mess of bad hair, laughable clothes, and stereotypical tropish behavior (Yep... Lightnings a dude, there is no reason to resist it, cause she will smack you in the face with her ePeen if you do)

B: I know you said excluding the trilogy, but I cant on this point. The fact that the game was not really all that well received (outside of japan) and was pretty disliked, there is absolutely no reason why this should have taken developmental priority over Agito and Vs. Yes I get it, once a game has its base assets, its easier to reuse those assets than to start from scratch, but that is simply no excuse. Both of those titles should have already been released in the US before anything pertaining to a sequel to a not really all that liked game even became a twisted thought in some devs head.
 

Epona

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Moonlight Butterfly said:
Crono1973 said:
Yes because you used to actually think about what abilities you used and when you used them...:|
...and with Final Fantasy XIII you shift paradigms while thinking about what you need to accomplish. You need to heal? You need to drop a status effect? You need to build the stagger gauge? You get the point, choosing a role for characters is not that different than taking your main warrior and making him cast Cure.

I guess it could be different in you head but in my head, it really wasn't any different but it was faster this way. I was happy I didn't need to cast Haste/Cure/Regen/etc.. on everyone manually.
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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Crono1973 said:
Yeah, I never found it that engaging. I think taking even more micro management away from an already quite disconnected gameplay style wasn't exactly the way to go.

I'm glad to see Sazh getting some love in this thread he was the only one I could tolerate.
 

Zeraki

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For me it was the characters. If you have a game as long as most Final Fantasy games are, I need likable or interesting characters to keep me invested. Be it a WRPG or a JRPG, the characters are the most important part of an RPG for me(which is why Skyrim is now collecting dust in my Steam library). Getting to know the characters is what keeps me coming back for more. I couldn't stand any of them in 13, despite how hard I tried... especially the hyper girl and the little whiny kid.

I still to this day get more of an emotional attachment to the characters from Final Fantasy 6, a game from 1993 on the SUPER NINTENDO, than I could force myself to muster for characters in a game with some of the prettiest graphics in the current console generation.
 

Epona

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Moonlight Butterfly said:
Crono1973 said:
Yeah, I never found it that engaging. I think taking even more micro management away from an already quite disconnected gameplay style wasn't exactly the way to go.
I understand, it grew on me over time but I love it now. I don't love everything about the battle system though. I think the stagger gauge was overused, it should have been treated more like a bonus to do massive damage than a requirement to beat many enemies (lest you want to spend an hour trying to take down a Pulsework knight).

I think the weapon upgrade system was a joke too. They should have just sold weapons at shops.
 

Vivi22

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alphamalet said:
As for the battle system, it's slow at the start, but when you get toward the end it is very engaging (like every other Final Fantasy). You are having to micromanage many things at once, and quickly change the roles of your party to adapt. It's an interesting system. Anyone who says it doesn't involve the player, and all they did was "Mash X" simply didn't play the game.
Sorry, no, I absolutely did play the game. I damn near beat it and would have had my PS3 not died costing me my save file, and the battle system was hands down the worst in the series because it really did remove even the illusion of player involvement.

For all of the potential combinations of jobs into different paradigms, they essentially boiled down to three that were useful: Attack focused, defense/healing focused, and buff/debuff focused. And you could get through 90% of the game without ever using the third (I know this because I did exactly that). And then there's auto-battle. Yes, you can pick your own actions for your party leader, but there's literally no reason to. 99% of the time, hitting auto-battle gets you the same commands with one button press instead of navigating multiple menu's selecting different options while under a fair amount of time pressure. If auto-battle is every bit as effective as I am and far more efficient, where's the incentive to not use it? The very existence of an easy button like that in the first place, even if it was only intended for your run of the mill enemy fights, is antithetical to having a good battle system. A battle system should be trying to engage the player in strategic decision making, not trying to remove those decisions under any circumstance.

So to sum it up, here's what the battle system amounts to: you spend your time making the same three (but usually two) very obvious choices while mashing the X button. Oh, and your teammates are stupid as a sack of hammers and if you're party leader dies you lose the battle. And this is what you will be doing for the majority of a 40+ hour game.

And to top it off you have to put up with a story which only explains most of the important details in a datalog in the menu screen for you to read about after the fact, and which features characters with motivations which often make little sense, and who do things which are either completely stupid, are directly opposed to their previously stated goals and motivations, or which involve them otherwise doing a complete about face from the way they were acting an hour or two before.

In fact, the one thing I found tolerable about the game was the character Sazh because not only was he the only believable character in the game and the only one I was ever able to empathize with, he was also the most consistent thoughout and the only one who would ever even act like they were bothered by the situation they were in.

I regularly hold FFXIII up as one of the worst games I've ever played and I stand by it. Sure it has a lot of polish on the technical side, but that doesn't excuse the fact that the game itself it terrible in almost every way I can think of.
 

elvor0

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Well... it's not as bad as everyone seems to say it is, but it's certainly the worst in the series. (Yes even worse than X-2, which redeemed itself with the really engaging jobs and battle system)

Firstly the combat is wank. You can only control your party leader, while the other two members are controlled by the AI. The AI doesn't have a clue what it's doing, will constantly attempt to use physical attacks on enemies that take half damage from physical attacks, or will just randomly change between magic and melee on characters that have a terrible stat in one of them.

Speaking of which, there are only two stats, magic and strength, that's it.

You can change jobs mid combat, but that also comes with a massive amount of wasted time, such as your buff bots casting +strength on your magic users (a class which DOESNT HAVE a physical attack), using shell for physical only enemies or your healers trying to outheal poison rather than casting fucking Esuna.

There's also a mechanic called Stagger, whereby you chain attacks up and then it stuns them, allowing you just laugh manically at monsters as you just stunlock them to death over the next minute or so. It's broken as hell.

Speaking of broken shit, the AoE spells are horrific. Instead of the old system where you just cast them on All foes, in this one it's a specific AoE spell, (like in World of Warcraft or the like), which is great in action based games. But not in this, because you can't specifically target areas, just mobs, meaning they become obsolete over just blasting them with single target spells.

AoE Healing spells are even worse, because everyone moves about during battle, but you can't tell everyone to bunch up for a heal, or even telling them where to stand at all, and you will end up being spread across the battlefield, without anything you can do about it, crippling AoE healing to no end.

Furthermore there's no resources, so that's no MP, and you're healed and status removed after every battle, meaning you can actually play certain sections by just holding the stick foward and mashing X to use the games "Auto Battle" option, of which there is no point not using as you're just wasting time other wise, and you'll be fine, as it's not until the 19th hour mark that you even come up against a tough foe.

The levelling system is also horrendously designed. (Think the sphere grid from FFX, but then make it linear) There's unavoidable strength upgrades on people that can't use physical attacks, and granted one you get to the 22 hour mark you unlock the ability to make them use melee classes, but by that point you've already invested alot in their default classes, and the cost for unlocking these new classes is about triple more than what it is to continue with their already available classes.

The summons are horribly over designed, and downright ugly, it looks like Michael Bay designed them, right down to the fact that they transform (Seriously, Shiva is now two flirtatious twins, who turn into a fucking motorbike, WHAT THE HELL SQUARE?!)

Actually aside from the main characters, everything is overdesigned, it looks pretty I'll give you that, it's an FF game, they all look pretty, but in this one, everything is too busy and has far too much going on, like all aesthetic sense went out the window, seems to follow the design sense from Michel Bay. To quote Yahtzee "It looks like someone sat down to draw them, then never fucking stopped!"

Next, there is NO exploration, none at all. The world doesn't even feel like it connects as you can't go back on your self, and everywhere is just one straight corridor, with the occasional recess with a rubbish piece of loot. There are no towns, as they've been turned into Save/Shop points. The backgrounds all look very pretty, but function as wallpaper, rather than environments, instead you must stick to ze tube. There is nothing but the tube. There's not even any people, so the world never feels lived in at all, even in towns there's fuck all of anyone about.

The characters are /okay/, although the opening scene is blatantly trying to Ape FF7 with a character that is described by the designers as "A female Cloud", (and not just personality wise, they blatantly used the same facial model from Cloud in Advent children) on a train, with a black gun toting sidekick. Actually the whole opening scene annoys me. You've got Soliders gunning down unarmed civilians, people being taken to death camps, children being forced to pick up guns, and everyone is still all happy and cheery. It totally undermines the mood they were trying to set.

Hope is also inconsistent between battle and characterization, up until he undergoes his character arc. He's a wuss, shys away from fighting, and then pulls a boomerang out of his arse and busts through a military instillation. What the hell is going on?

I will say however, that the Voice acting is significantly better than it has been, it's still been noticeably dubbed, but other than that there's barely any cringe inducing moments. Vanille is the only one that sticks out as having a bad voice actor, she starts out from Brooklyn, then she's cockney for a bit, then finally finishes up in Australia.

The story is also all over the place, and while I don't want everything spooned fed to me, I still didn't find out the main goal until about the 19th hour mark. Even then its still not clear which side were supposed to be on. Up until that point, we know almost nothing, the exposition is put in an in game glossary, which are nice side things, but shouldn't be necessary to understand the world were in. Again, "you're supposed to weave exposition into the narrative, not hand everyone a fucking glossary!"

I only played it last month, so I went in expecting the worst, and I was surprised, I really WANTED to like it, and I slogged through it out of spite more than anything, but I still can't mount anything more than an over all, ughhhhh, about the whole experience. The game does make it pretty clear that the play should be involved as little as possible, while the AI and Auto Battle do any and all thinking for you. HANDS AWAY FROM THE FUCKING BUTTONS!

I think the thing that gets me are the people who love FF13, who really fucking love on it, and will pounce on you at a moments notice for saying anything bad about it. Even if it's just a rough criticism about certain things. Seriously, I think the battle system is awful, and you know what I get as a counter critique a lot of the time? "WELL THAT'S JUST HOW IT IS DEAL WITH IT!!!!11" Yes, I know that is how it is, I still don't like it, just because it is the way it is, that doesn't make it good.

Also, if I ever have to hear that fucking Leona Lewis song that seems to have been woven into almost every piece of music in the game, I will fucking murder someone.

Lastly Sazh is actually pretty cool. He's the only character that actually has a decent arc, doesn't display any strange schizophrenic behaviour and has the most consistant voice acting.
 

danon

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Let the infinite knowledge of Jon Tron end this thread http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47YPs-qwNQU
 

Epona

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TizzytheTormentor said:
I have tons of issues with it, but my biggest issue is the combat.

Auto-attack selects the best possible moves in your selected paradigm, all you have to do is mash auto-attack until the enemy is dead. Selecting abilities is pointless since auto-attack selects the best ones for you, you will only use abilities for:
A) Using raise because auto-attack will not use raise unless your parties health is all green.
B) Character special moves you get NEAR THE END OF THE GAME!

The combat is easily the slowest, dumbed down and pathetic battle systems in the history of the franchise (thank fuck FF13-2 made it faster and more enjoyable)

On the other hand, I loved Sazh (one of my favorite Final Fantasy characters ever) and Lightning (she was pretty bad-ass) the graphics and music are amazing and the transformers/summons thing kicked ass! The voice acting was excellent (Even though Vanille made me want to stab her)
If you think FF13 combat was slow, you need to go play FF9.
 

Syzygy23

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Overusedname said:
The first FFXIII, ignoring the triology I mean. Is it really that bad?

I'm not asking sarcastically or anything. I actually don't know. It'll be quite a while until I can afford one of the consoles needed to play it...but I kinda like the look of it. It seems very pretty, expressive, Lightning seems genuinely badass and interesting, the music is great...Is it the story?

I rarely see a clear answer that people have a consensus on. Is it that bad? What good sides are there? I'm asking as an old FF fan (note the avatar) and I never saw the big issue from the trailers and gameplay I've seen. I just want some info. I'm an under-informed neutral for now.
This video sums it up PERFECTLY and TO THE LETTER:

 

Epona

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TizzytheTormentor said:
Crono1973 said:
TizzytheTormentor said:
I have tons of issues with it, but my biggest issue is the combat.

Auto-attack selects the best possible moves in your selected paradigm, all you have to do is mash auto-attack until the enemy is dead. Selecting abilities is pointless since auto-attack selects the best ones for you, you will only use abilities for:
A) Using raise because auto-attack will not use raise unless your parties health is all green.
B) Character special moves you get NEAR THE END OF THE GAME!

The combat is easily the slowest, dumbed down and pathetic battle systems in the history of the franchise (thank fuck FF13-2 made it faster and more enjoyable)

On the other hand, I loved Sazh (one of my favorite Final Fantasy characters ever) and Lightning (she was pretty bad-ass) the graphics and music are amazing and the transformers/summons thing kicked ass! The voice acting was excellent (Even though Vanille made me want to stab her)
If you think FF13 combat was slow, you need to go play FF9.
Pff, Final Fantasy 9 was actually good and you actually have to choose your moves, not hammer the auto-attack button.

Incidentally, Final Fantasy 9 is my favorite game of all time.
Your last sentence wasn't needed, your bias was obvious before that.

Anyway, if you can't see that the combat in FF13 is faster than the combat in FF9 then you need a stopwatch.
 

faefrost

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It's an under rated and overly complained about game. It is a fun great looking game. Where it loses fans is how linear it is. It isn't that it is a bad game. It's that it departs way too much from the more free roam RPG style of previous FF games. It's basically one long hallway interspaced with really good battles.

Now on the negative side you also have some primo examples of horrific classic Square and JRPG character tropes (see Yahtzee's review). You can't spend 5 minutes with the cast without simply wanting to drop half of them off a ledge. (Can we kill Hope... please?). But it really isn't any worse than any other similar JRPG.
 

PedroSteckecilo

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Personally I thought the overall plot was too flat and the difficulty curve was too high, basically every fight felt like I was banging my head against a wall. I mean I didn't think it was awful beyond reason, but to this day it remains the only core Final Fantasy Game I haven't beaten.
 

Knight Captain Kerr

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It looks pretty.

Other than that, everything. Like seriously all of it. Story, gameplay, characters, pacing, linearity, ludonarrative dissonance, no idea on how to use the medium of video games to tell a story, footsteps too loud, has Leona Louis music, I had no idea what is going on and didn't care....

I stopped playing after a few hours. I have friends who love it. It is one their favourite games of all time. Meh.
 

Epona

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TizzytheTormentor said:
Crono1973 said:
TizzytheTormentor said:
Crono1973 said:
TizzytheTormentor said:
I have tons of issues with it, but my biggest issue is the combat.

Auto-attack selects the best possible moves in your selected paradigm, all you have to do is mash auto-attack until the enemy is dead. Selecting abilities is pointless since auto-attack selects the best ones for you, you will only use abilities for:
A) Using raise because auto-attack will not use raise unless your parties health is all green.
B) Character special moves you get NEAR THE END OF THE GAME!

The combat is easily the slowest, dumbed down and pathetic battle systems in the history of the franchise (thank fuck FF13-2 made it faster and more enjoyable)

On the other hand, I loved Sazh (one of my favorite Final Fantasy characters ever) and Lightning (she was pretty bad-ass) the graphics and music are amazing and the transformers/summons thing kicked ass! The voice acting was excellent (Even though Vanille made me want to stab her)
If you think FF13 combat was slow, you need to go play FF9.
Pff, Final Fantasy 9 was actually good and you actually have to choose your moves, not hammer the auto-attack button.

Incidentally, Final Fantasy 9 is my favorite game of all time.
Your last sentence wasn't needed, your bias was obvious before that.

Anyway, if you can't see that the combat in FF13 is faster than the combat in FF9 then you need a stopwatch.
Ok, how about I replace slow with boring? Would that be better, Final Fantasy 13's combat was boring, hammering auto-attack was boring.

Not to mention the crystarium and weapon upgrade systems were horrible.

Also, it's not bias to enjoy a game more than another.
Boring would be the best way for YOU to describe it because that is subjective. Final Fantasy 9 had no 5 second battles. Hell, it took Final Fantasy 9 more than 5 seconds to load a battle.

Yeah the Crystarium kinda sucked and the weapon upgrade system was just dumb.

Yes, you can be biased in favor of one game over another. There's nothing wrong with it.