So what do we call actual homophobia?

[JoJo]

Is 'actual homophobia' as you describe actually a real thing? Do you have any further material we can read on it? To be a psychological condition something needs to have a markedly detrimental effect on someone's life, and while I've heard of some well-intentioned straight people having an internal twinge of disgust when they see same-sex affection, I've never heard of anyone who has a socially crippling fear of LGBT people whilst holding perfectly benign opinions about those same people as a group.

I should clarify that while it's a slight departure from it's literal meaning in ancient Greek, "same fear", ever since homophobia was coined in the late 1960's by George Weinburg[small]http://www.stonewall.org.uk/at_home/sexual_orientation_faqs/2697.asp[/small] it's always had the same wider meaning as it does now.

Fear of being stared at by a duck is a thing, so why wouldn't fear of homosexuals be a thing? Some people have venustraphobia (fear of beautiful women). If a situation or thing exists, people can have an unreasoning fear of it. I knew a girl who had some kind of bone phobia where if you cracked your knuckles around her she would freak out and cry (I made the mistake of cracking my neck around her and her reaction was a bit stronger).

Though I see what you mean by the history of the word, it's always been the wrong word.

Sure, it's plausible that there might be someone out there like that, I doubt there are enough true duck-stare phobics in the world to count on more one hand however and probably the same for what you are proposing, unless you have any specific data on that sort of thing. Seems a bit much to be talking in the OP about how using the term homophobic is shaming these hypothetical people when we don't even have any concrete evidence they exist in significant numbers.

If we actually needed a specific term for a medical phobia, I'd suggest 'homosexualphobia'.

 

[Dizchu]

"In often times, we hate that which we fear." - William Shakespeare

Pay more attention to the rants of those bigots. "It'll lead to the breakdown of society!" "It'll destroy the family!" "If we accept this, soon we'll have to accept pedo's and bestiality!" That's fear behind their actions. Do you really think they wouldn't cling to this lunacy if they weren't being controlled by the most primal emotion? And, to a point, I hate them and their ilk, because I fear what irrational hatred could do to my country.

Nailed it. While the term "homophobia" doesn't refer to a literal fear of gay people, homophobes actually do fear gay people.

Yes. They do. They fear that the "gay agenda" will destroy society, they fear that gay people will be interested in them, they fear that it'll invoke the wrath of their deity of choice, they fear gay people will corrupt their children. If they didn't fear gay people, they wouldn't give a shit.

I have never heard anyone justify their hatred or distrust of gay people without reasons that indicate one of these fears. So yes, homophobia is actually homophobia. Fear of gay people.

Now people may classify stereotypical portrayals of gay people in media as "homophobia", but I think that's different. Like racial stereotypes, there's instances where they work and instances where they don't. It relies on the comedian/writer's self-awareness and intentions. It's often easy to tell a light-hearted use of stereotype compared to a mean-spirited one.

 

[Evil Smurf]

I like the word ****, as in "Geoff is such a ****."

 

[Nimzabaat]

I actually know a guy that has "actual homophobia"

So here's a little story I was out at the bar with a bunch of dudes from work and a few of us broke off from the main group and went to a smaller bar across the street I bumped into an old friend I hadn't seen in years there and we were catching up when these two very flamboyant gay guys walked in and they just grabbed a table near the back and were just minding their own business. then my friend that I came to the bar with came up to me very visibly freaked out and was like "dude we have to leave" I picked up on what was bothering him because he kept nervously looking over at the two men so I was like "relax man their just minding their own business over there its not a big deal" and then he was like "screw you then im outta here" I guess he went back to the first bar we had gone to but all the people we had gone there with had already left because he came back a few minutes latter and literally pleaded with me to leave with him like he looked like he was about to break down and cry which was super out of character for this guy so we left. I confronted him about it the next day and he said that he doesn't hate gay people or anything and he understands that his feelings are completely irrational but he just can't be around them.

TLR I have a friend that almost broke down in tears just from being in the same room as two gay men

Thank's for the story. That's an excellent example of phobia as opposed to bigotry. Phobia "i have to leave" vs bigotry "they have to leave". In time your friend may even be able to manage his phobia.

 

[Battenberg]

I... uh... what? Is your problem that people who have a genuine phobia of homosexuality are getting a bad rep because of how "homophobia" is used? I'm honestly struggling to comprehend that as an actual psychological condition (particularly as it seems likely it would be abused by the bigots looking for justification) but even if it is surely the people you mention who actually have it but support gay rights are unlikely to get called it as an insult by anyone because of what the term has come to mean?

Regardless I always thought "gaycist" was a better term.

 

[Nimzabaat]

I actually know a guy that has "actual homophobia"

So here's a little story I was out at the bar with a bunch of dudes from work and a few of us broke off from the main group and went to a smaller bar across the street I bumped into an old friend I hadn't seen in years there and we were catching up when these two very flamboyant gay guys walked in and they just grabbed a table near the back and were just minding their own business. then my friend that I came to the bar with came up to me very visibly freaked out and was like "dude we have to leave" I picked up on what was bothering him because he kept nervously looking over at the two men so I was like "relax man their just minding their own business over there its not a big deal" and then he was like "screw you then im outta here" I guess he went back to the first bar we had gone to but all the people we had gone there with had already left because he came back a few minutes latter and literally pleaded with me to leave with him like he looked like he was about to break down and cry which was super out of character for this guy so we left. I confronted him about it the next day and he said that he doesn't hate gay people or anything and he understands that his feelings are completely irrational but he just can't be around them.

TLR I have a friend that almost broke down in tears just from being in the same room as two gay men

Thank's for the story. That's an excellent example of phobia as opposed to bigotry. Phobia "i have to leave" vs bigotry "they have to leave". In time your friend may even be able to manage his phobia.

This is your private definition of the suffix "Phobia", and the word "Bigotry", but you do understand that's not what they actually mean, right?

I think "phobia" means this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobia

And I think "bigotry" means this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry

But I have been known to be wrong in the past.

 

[Popido]

So what do we call actual homophobia?

I really want to say "Adopted", but I won't because this is a christian forum.

 

[Nimzabaat]

I just chatted with a friend about this thread, for a laugh and her response was, "Oh what to call them? Latent!" I don't endorse that opinion, but I thought that we could all use a harmless laugh.

That's cute. Yeah I think this thread was more rhetorical anyways. Though there have been some good discussion points brought up.

I... uh... what? Is your problem that people who have a genuine phobia of homosexuality are getting a bad rep because of how "homophobia" is used? I'm honestly struggling to comprehend that as an actual psychological condition (particularly as it seems likely it would be abused by the bigots looking for justification) but even if it is surely the people you mention who actually have it but support gay rights are unlikely to get called it as an insult by anyone because of what the term has come to mean?

Regardless I always thought "gaycist" was a better term.

Well it's not so much actual homophobes being called homophobic. It's more that if they feel they could be shamed for being homophobic, they're more likely to keep quiet about it and not work on managing their fear. I just found the phrase "you're not scared, you're an asshole" to be just as dismissive and ignorant as "you're not gay, you're confused".

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Fear of being stared at by a duck is a thing, so why wouldn't fear of homosexuals be a thing?

You sure about that? Because that sounds a lot like a Far Side cartoon to me.

Spoiler: In fact it sounds exactly like one to me

http://dailyapple.blogspot.ca/2011/01/apple-504-fear-of-being-watched-by-duck.html

Awesome. Fucking "AWESOME".

Really? You had an awesome day? Well please tell me about your grand adventures. Oh what? You got a free foam shot at Starbucks?

That's usually when I realize I'm bleeding, and that my nails have cut into my palm.

Awesome used to be like that. Same with awful actually. Both used to be words that you could use in situations that were full of awe. It's funny how etymology changes, terrific and awful almost switched meanings

 

[CrystalShadow]

I dunno. I had some unpleasant conversation with someone who was seriously convinced that having 'gay sex' by accident would cause at least 70% of straight people to feel such horror and revulsion that they'd throw up violently...
(strictly speaking it was a discussion about having sex with transgender people without knowing until after the fact that they were transgender)

I found thr assertion that that degree of revulsion is a 'natural, and fundamental instinct' kind of laughable, but someone genuinely tried to tell me that...
(so uhh... Shouldn't that work the other way round too? I've heard plenty of stories of gay people having 'straight' sex for various reasons. And sure, it doesn't work out well... No attraction, little pleasure to it, etc. But... Outright violent revulsion? I really haven't heard of that happening much, if ever)

Anyway, the question that comes to mind about questioning the meaning of 'homophobia' is...
Does it matter? The phenomena it describes is quite real. It may not be a literal 'phobia' but it is a thing.

Language doesn't follow strict logic. A word means what it does because of how it's used, not because of any other factor.
Further, language use (and thus meaning) can shift over time. See for instance both the words 'gay' (happy), and '******' (small piece of firewood)? neither of which even retain their old meaning at all in common modern usage.

I can call a car a tree, and I'd be wrong. On the other hand, if I can get enough other people to call cars trees as well, then it becomes a valid word to describe a car. Irrespective of the etymology of the word, or whatever meaning it might have had in the past.
Language is not prescriptive.
It isn't set by some higher authority for us to use.
It grows organically, and gains meaning through use, not the other way around.
(a dictionary is a description of how words have been observed being used, rather than an actual guide of how they SHOULD be used)

Anyway, to answer the question, logically given homophobia has an existing meaning, the obvious conclusion is literal homophobia would have a different word.

For instance:
genophobia z- fear of sex

So, (for example)
homogenophobia - fear of gay sex.

That may not convey the correct kind of fear though. So...

anthropophobia - fear of prople

so.

homoantropophobia would be fear of gay people.

See? it isn't hard. If such a word was needed, there are plenty of options.
And these words don't have to be short. Many 'phobia' words are quite awkwardly long.

You have to pity people with a fear of long words after all, since some sadistic persin declared the word for their condition to be Hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia.

Perhaps learning to say the formal name of your own condition could be considered part of the treatment?

Anyway... How much of an issue do you think thia distinction would actually be?

 

[Battenberg]

So what do we call actual homophobia?

I really want to say "Adopted", but I won't because this is a christian forum.

Since when?

Well it's not so much actual homophobes being called homophobic. It's more that if they feel they could be shamed for being homophobic, they're more likely to keep quiet about it and not work on managing their fear. I just found the phrase "you're not scared, you're an asshole" to be just as dismissive and ignorant as "you're not gay, you're confused".

Well not really, the first phrase if very often accurate while the second phrase is very rarely, if ever, true. That said they both come from the same place - gut instinct as opposed to any logical reasoning. You could argue the same thing happens with pedophilia. Perhaps if people didn't have such a violently negative response to it then more people would come forward seeking help/ treatment.

 

[Exile714]

I think "phobia" means this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobia

And I think "bigotry" means this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry

But I have been known to be wrong in the past.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobia#Terminology

From the page you referenced: The word phobia may also refer to conditions other than true phobias. For example, the term hydrophobia is an old name for rabies, since an aversion to water is one of that disease's symptoms. A specific phobia to water is called aquaphobia instead. A hydrophobe is a chemical compound which repels water. Similarly, the term photophobia usually refers to a physical complaint (aversion to light due to inflamed eyes or excessively dilated pupils), rather than an irrational fear of light.

I think homophobia falls within this category...

Or, you know, this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobia#Terms_for_prejudice

Sorry for the multiple edits, I just need to get off the Wikipedia train tonight.

But reading on the Wikipedia article for Homophobia, I came across a section on the page concerning the invented word "heterophobia" which is homophobia aimed at heterosexuals. It's silly, but then I read this:

Stephen M. White and Louis R. Franzini introduced the related term of "heteronegativism" to refer to the considerable range of negative feelings that some gay individuals may hold and express toward heterosexuals. This term is preferred to "heterophobia" because it does not imply extreme or irrational fear.

Sounds like we have an answer to an alternative for homophobia: homonegativisism.

 

[Nimzabaat]

I actually know a guy that has "actual homophobia"

So here's a little story I was out at the bar with a bunch of dudes from work and a few of us broke off from the main group and went to a smaller bar across the street I bumped into an old friend I hadn't seen in years there and we were catching up when these two very flamboyant gay guys walked in and they just grabbed a table near the back and were just minding their own business. then my friend that I came to the bar with came up to me very visibly freaked out and was like "dude we have to leave" I picked up on what was bothering him because he kept nervously looking over at the two men so I was like "relax man their just minding their own business over there its not a big deal" and then he was like "screw you then im outta here" I guess he went back to the first bar we had gone to but all the people we had gone there with had already left because he came back a few minutes latter and literally pleaded with me to leave with him like he looked like he was about to break down and cry which was super out of character for this guy so we left. I confronted him about it the next day and he said that he doesn't hate gay people or anything and he understands that his feelings are completely irrational but he just can't be around them.

TLR I have a friend that almost broke down in tears just from being in the same room as two gay men

Thank's for the story. That's an excellent example of phobia as opposed to bigotry. Phobia "i have to leave" vs bigotry "they have to leave". In time your friend may even be able to manage his phobia.

This is your private definition of the suffix "Phobia", and the word "Bigotry", but you do understand that's not what they actually mean, right?

I think "phobia" means this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobia

And I think "bigotry" means this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry

But I have been known to be wrong in the past.

Wikipedia as a source for definitions of words is a bizarre choice. Lets take a look at a more commonly accepted source, the OED.

Bigotry
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/bigotry

Intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself

-Phobia (the suffix remember)
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/-phobia

Extreme or irrational fear or dislike of a specified thing or group

There is no debate to be had over the definition of these words. Do you have anything to offer on the basis of the reality of what they actually mean?

I'd say we're arguing semantics, but that's not the case. The way I used them in my example fits both sources. So, i'm a little stumped in what you're trying to say. What do you think those words mean? Since apparently neither of those sources fits your understanding.

 

[Nimzabaat]

So what do we call actual homophobia?

I really want to say "Adopted", but I won't because this is a christian forum.

Since when?

Well it's not so much actual homophobes being called homophobic. It's more that if they feel they could be shamed for being homophobic, they're more likely to keep quiet about it and not work on managing their fear. I just found the phrase "you're not scared, you're an asshole" to be just as dismissive and ignorant as "you're not gay, you're confused".

Well not really, the first phrase if very often accurate while the second phrase is very rarely, if ever, true. That said they both come from the same place - gut instinct as opposed to any logical reasoning. You could argue the same thing happens with pedophilia. Perhaps if people didn't have such a violently negative response to it then more people would come forward seeking help/ treatment.

If it actually read as "you're not homophobic, you're an asshole", then that would be accurate and I would have no issue with it. That's a good point about pedophilia though, it seems that we try to un-demonize some things by demonizing others.

 

[Nimzabaat]

I actually know a guy that has "actual homophobia"

So here's a little story I was out at the bar with a bunch of dudes from work and a few of us broke off from the main group and went to a smaller bar across the street I bumped into an old friend I hadn't seen in years there and we were catching up when these two very flamboyant gay guys walked in and they just grabbed a table near the back and were just minding their own business. then my friend that I came to the bar with came up to me very visibly freaked out and was like "dude we have to leave" I picked up on what was bothering him because he kept nervously looking over at the two men so I was like "relax man their just minding their own business over there its not a big deal" and then he was like "screw you then im outta here" I guess he went back to the first bar we had gone to but all the people we had gone there with had already left because he came back a few minutes latter and literally pleaded with me to leave with him like he looked like he was about to break down and cry which was super out of character for this guy so we left. I confronted him about it the next day and he said that he doesn't hate gay people or anything and he understands that his feelings are completely irrational but he just can't be around them.

TLR I have a friend that almost broke down in tears just from being in the same room as two gay men

Thank's for the story. That's an excellent example of phobia as opposed to bigotry. Phobia "i have to leave" vs bigotry "they have to leave". In time your friend may even be able to manage his phobia.

This is your private definition of the suffix "Phobia", and the word "Bigotry", but you do understand that's not what they actually mean, right?

I think "phobia" means this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobia

And I think "bigotry" means this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry

But I have been known to be wrong in the past.

Wikipedia as a source for definitions of words is a bizarre choice. Lets take a look at a more commonly accepted source, the OED.

Bigotry
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/bigotry

Intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself

-Phobia (the suffix remember)
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/-phobia

Extreme or irrational fear or dislike of a specified thing or group

There is no debate to be had over the definition of these words. Do you have anything to offer on the basis of the reality of what they actually mean?

I'd say we're arguing semantics, but that's not the case. The way I used them in my example fits both sources. So, i'm a little stumped in what you're trying to say. What do you think those words mean? Since apparently neither of those sources fits your understanding.

Don't get upset because your attempt to pretend that there is a psychological condition- a "Phobia" which exists and sufferers of which are persecuted as a result of the common use of the term- has failed. There is no such recognized condition. So if you knew the definition of "-Phobia" in this context, and presumably know that there is no recognized "Homophobia" in medicine or psychology, what was the point of all of this?

If you're not trying to argue semantics, or failed to understand in the first place, what ARE you doing?

Lets see.

That's an excellent example of phobia as opposed to bigotry. Phobia "i have to leave" vs bigotry "they have to leave". In time your friend may even be able to manage his phobia.

Well lets see, is that true? No. Phobia in this case is a DISLIKE, not "I have to leave". You can want to make THEM leave in that context. Bigotry by contrast, may be at the root of that, or not as the case may be. Bigotry has to do with views and opinions, and intolerance of them. -Phobia has to do with people and groups, and a dislike/aversion to them. So either your understanding of the words have changed since then, or you're not being totally straightforward with me right now.

You can't have it both ways.

So you're saying homophobia doesn't exist? So why not strike the word from the English language? If there's no such thing why do people use it so often?

The point I was trying to make is that homophobia is a real phobia. It is a diagnosed condition, it's in the dictionary. Did you even read the links you sent? However, we're using that word to describe people who are bigoted against homosexuals and not people who suffer from homophobia. Phobia does not equal bigotry. That was the point of this thread.

 

[FalloutJack]

Snip

Actually, this picture is inaccurate. There IS homophobia and there ARE people afraid they'll 'catch the gay', but there are also assholes who just hate homosexuals. Also, there is some overlap and a liberal portion of stupidity dousing it all like gravy.

 

[Super Cyborg]

Not exactly what I was expecting this thread to be about (thought it was going to be what kind of behaviors make someone Homophobic).

Someone pointed this out to me in another thread, and that's words can change meaning overtime or not go with root words. Phobia may usually mean fear, but you can have words with certain roots but not use those definitions with the word. I don't know how, but Homophobia has mostly become a word to blanket most people against Homosexuals, and is meant to have heavy negative connotations. I think bigot is a much better word overall, but that's usually more broad where Homophobe is for an exact type of discrimination.

Either way, the term Homophobe is fine in itself. Being scared can lead to hate in some way, so it is apt in some way. This feels like arguing against something very minute.

 

[freaper]

I actually know a guy that has "actual homophobia"

So here's a little story I was out at the bar with a bunch of dudes from work and a few of us broke off from the main group and went to a smaller bar across the street I bumped into an old friend I hadn't seen in years there and we were catching up when these two very flamboyant gay guys walked in and they just grabbed a table near the back and were just minding their own business. then my friend that I came to the bar with came up to me very visibly freaked out and was like "dude we have to leave" I picked up on what was bothering him because he kept nervously looking over at the two men so I was like "relax man their just minding their own business over there its not a big deal" and then he was like "screw you then im outta here" I guess he went back to the first bar we had gone to but all the people we had gone there with had already left because he came back a few minutes latter and literally pleaded with me to leave with him like he looked like he was about to break down and cry which was super out of character for this guy so we left. I confronted him about it the next day and he said that he doesn't hate gay people or anything and he understands that his feelings are completely irrational but he just can't be around them.

TLR I have a friend that almost broke down in tears just from being in the same room as two gay men

Hey, I went to the store and got you some of these (,,..,,,,..,,,,::. I hope you'll be able to use those in the future.

OT: How much of that phobia is psychological, and how much of it is cultural? I'm completely for equal rights across the board, but I still get that gut feeling of aversion when I see two dudes make out -I even get that when a heterosexual couple is making out in front of me, so whatever. That's a me problem, but I'm very open to the possibility that younger generations won't have that, growing up in a society where public displays of affection between gay couples isn't weird.

 

[veloper]

That's cuz "phobia" is an old word.

In the good old days, a homo was a big, fat, hairy man in black leather pants, lurking in dark alleyways. None of this modern pink fairy shit, but the real hard gay stuff.

Yeah, they could be scary...

 

[Terminal Blue]

Seriously, what is with this thread?

Homophobia is not an actual phobic disorder, it's a casual description of the most commonly understood theoretical mechanism behind the relatively extreme reaction many people seem to have to homosexuality.

Unlike people of different races, gay people do not have distinguishing physical features. They could be anyone, which means they could be you. That is the fear, it's not the gay person out there, it's the fear of not really being who you think you are, and the constant intrusive realization that all you'd need to do is stick your dick in another man and suddenly everything you thought you knew about yourself would be meaningless. It's the relative permeability of that line and the consequent instability of ever being truly, definitively heterosexual, because you can't be truly, definitively heterosexual until you've died, all it takes is one slip, one wrong thought, one confusing dream and you stop being the definitive heterosexual that you think you are.

Homophobia does not manifest visibly as fear symptoms, although it may manifest as extreme disgust or anxiety, it manifests as a dislike or hatred. It is, however, a compulsive hatred, it's a hatred which stems from the desire to protect the psyche from its own inability to guaruntee its own heterosexuality. It manifests in the need to symbolically punish or reject people who embody the potential for homosexuality which makes the homophobe uncomfortable.

However "rational" homophobes think they are, there is still the underlying question of why they pick the targets they do, and what produces the fundamental need to structure the world in the way that they do. Even today, we have no problem employing this kind of pseudo-medical thinking in the case of homosexuality itself, we constantly look for "causes" outside of culture for why gay people should exist. Why should we do less for anyone else? Why should we assume that "I hate gays" is less prone to medicalization, as a statement, than "I like boys (or girls)".