So what's your take on this "Forest Boy of Germany" crap?

[Phasmal]

So? You seem just as apologetic as the next person.

What?
You expect me to be apologetic for the way things are?
I didn't make them that way.
If you have such a perfect foolproof law, go present it and make it legal.

 

[Phasmal]

That says more about you then you seem to think it does. You are implying that this should, for some reason, be the guys problem even if he had the option of forfeiting his rights to the child.

Me pointing out that the kids need to be supported means I think the dude has to do it? No, if there were a law so the guy didnt have to if he signed a legal document signing away his fatherhood rights means either the woman has to bring up the kid with her own money or will have to rely on benefits. Which is why I don't see it being legalised anytime soon because I don't think that many people would want that.

The deal is fairly simple, she wants to call the shots? She and she alone has to deal with whatever consequences that may have.

And if she can't afford to? You're oversimplifying.

Also, where did I claim that I have a perfect foolproof law? I said that what you said isn't a good reason because there are comparitively simple solutions for that.

If there are simple solutions I would gladly see them implemented- but I just don't think it's that simple.

 

[Wintermoot]

no YOU are across the pond not me!
OT
I don't really see why he made up such a story I mean he could just stick to streets and live of the grid instead of looking for a spotlight.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Or to put it another way, a guy with serious father issues doesn't want to be a father.

If he didn't want to be a father he shouldn't have had vaginal sex. End of story. It's not like that's the only option for him to get off. From what I've seen he's got two perfectly functional hands, and there are two other holes on every human body that a penis can fit in.

Apologies to CaptainMarvelous, and I just want to say a lot of the ire that I'm about to unleash isn't really targeted at you, but at the entire INSANE vibe I've been getting from many of the posts that he's allowed to have sex and not deal with the consequences. I don't know if contraception was used or not, but as has been said before, with them or without them, EVERY time a fertile man has vaginal sex with a fertile woman, he risks getting her pregnant. This should not be news to anyone, this has gone on since the dawn of sexual reproduction!

I'm not saying he's any more responsible than the woman, and I am not a proponent of stupid people running around unwisely making babies when they aren't in a position to take care of them. But an abortion is not a get out of jail free card, and the caviler attitude I've seen in a lot of posts are most definitely coming from men who will NEVER have to face that decision in their lives. There is NO stigma attached to a guy who knocked up a girl who then got an abortion, while women can't even walk into some health clinics without passing a picket line of protesters calling her a slut. That's happened to me and I was just going for a yearly exam and some birth control pills, for god's sake!

The fact of the matter is pregnancy is REALLY easy to avoid when you're purely rational and logical about it, but these two were young adult humans, not Vulcans. So they BOTH made a mistake and they BOTH need to own up to it and deal with it. Eventually this boy is gonna have to face the music, and I'd rather it be now than later.

I'm OK with this o.o-b

I pretty much agree with what you're saying after I read Phasmal's post, so I can deal with the intense ire. I also don't think the guy's in anyway capable of being a father and it'd genuinely be better for the kid to go through Child Services than be raised by this pair from all sounds of it.

 

[Phasmal]

Snip

You're pretty much just arguing with yourself here.
My argument is that if the guy doesnt pay for it the government will have to (even if the kid is taken away). I seriously doubt the law is going to change to try and push more women into abortions if the dude doesn't want to be involved.
You can argue about what should happen all you like. All I am talking about is what is likely to happen.
Keep arguing if you like.

That says more about you then you seem to think it does. You are implying that this should, for some reason, be the guys problem even if he had the option of forfeiting his rights to the child.

Me pointing out that the kids need to be supported means I think the dude has to do it? No, if there were a law so the guy didnt have to if he signed a legal document signing away his fatherhood rights means either the woman has to bring up the kid with her own money or will have to rely on benefits. Which is why I don't see it being legalised anytime soon because I don't think that many people would want that.

I propose this be called the "Screw you, *****, you're on your own" Law. All you have to do is give up the legal rights to a child you never wanted, and you're completely off the hook! You can go around knocking up as many women as you want, and just run away to leave them dealing with the mess.

Not sure why you quoted me there. I was the one saying that's not really achievable. Unless people wanna stop paying for their own kids and start paying for everybodys! (Through benefits)

 

[Telasro]

Everything sounds unfair when you strawman it hard enough, suggesting that she isn't going to pay for it the rest of her life as well, whether she has an abortion or not. Who cares that her life is completely and forever changed, he should just fuck and run.

Yeah, if only people had the opportunity to sit down, talk things through, and find a compromise without actively antagonizing each other.

Yeah, wouldn't that be nice... Ah well.

Interesting story though, hope the guy manages to get his life in order...

 

[Darkmantle]

There is some seriously sick shit going on in this thread. The whole "the guy should just be able to abandon his child and responsibilities" argument is just so callous. It's both their responsibilities, you can't just sign away your problems. And abortion is not a quick fix solution either, it's a difficult procedure, not to be taken lightly.

 

[Scarim Coral]

Geez half of this thread is either about to care about this or not or being responsible for getting pregnant about it or not.

Anyway- it's nice to see karma being in played and it goes to show you can never out run your problems and to own up your responsisblity even if you don't want to.

 

[Ashannon Blackthorn]

Uhm, his girlfriend having a child is not his problem. He has every right to walk away from that, just like she has every right to not have the child if she doesn't want to. You can't force someone to become a mother or father, that is just monstrous.

And if you'd looked him up [http://nl.linkedin.com/pub/robin-van-helsum/27/307/939], you'd know he did sports and failed several low-grade studies. Neither does it make sense for a computer addict to go somewhere without computers.

Aside from that there's indications his situation was pretty bad. He never knew his mother, and media speak of there being 'problems' with his father. That means his father either beat him, or sexually abused him.

In any case I wouldn't go jumping to any conclusions like you're doing. His story is weird, but plenty people do weird things after living through half Van Helsum has.

OK, taking aside the whole wolfchild bit, this seems to me to be simpply a matter of personal responsibility.

Blablahb, I want to ask you something. Do you feel that people have to face the responsibility for thier actions. yes or no please.

Now if yes, why doesn't Van Helsum have ot face his? He had a bad life? So? Lots of people have had bad lives and I'm sure some have had a lot worse than his and still manage to function as socially responsible adults... see Fritzl's daughter for a good example.

But if no, why? Why should a bad life be a carte blanche permission to fuck up other people's lives as well as your own and stick society with the bill? (or other people aka the girl's family if they support and the taxpayers if she goes on some form of social assisstence?)

Sorry if you answered this but after reading all the posts here (and it gets tangly the farther you go) I honestly cant see if you're playing devil's advocate, actively supporting Van Helsum or something else.

 

[Westaway]

"Let's have sex"
"Alright!"

~20 minutes later~

"The condom broke"
"Well, shit"
"You're probably pregnant, you should get an abortion"
"No. I'm keeping it and yoi're going to have to pay for it for the rest of your life"
"I don't want you to keep it"
"Doesn't matter, I made the choice even though it was both our mistake."

That doesn't sound fair at all.

Everything sounds unfair when you strawman it hard enough, suggesting that she isn't going to pay for it the rest of her life as well, whether she has an abortion or not. Who cares that her life is completely and forever changed, he should just fuck and run.

I have no idea what strawmaning is, you're going to have to explain that to me. The point I was trying to make is not that only the man will suffer or some stupid shit like that. What I'm saying is that although it was both of their mistake, only one has the choice. I personally find that stupid, but I guess I could be persuaded otherwise.
Obviousky you meant to type "shouldn't" at the end there. Funny typo.

It wasn't a typo, it was a summary of people's feelings that if he doesn't want to accept responsibility for the baby he helped create, he should be able to just run away consequence free leaving the girl to carry 100% of the burden. Because that's fair, somehow.

Ha ha, oops, I misread that. You were being sarcastic.
VERY witty.
Anyways, yes, it IS her problem now. Now anyone with sense knows that up to there, they share fault equally. However, if she decides NOT to have an abortion, it is 100% her problem. If you see the guy is running away, don't have the damn baby. After, she is making the choice, therefor she must care for the baby. That's only common sense.
That is, of course, presuming you have nothing against abortions. If you do this conversation is so far is pointless.