Social Darwinism: Why?

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CianTheMighty

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In response to the social darwinism thing, I think it's pretty well accepted that idiots will always be idiots. It's not so much about societal motivations, but rather personal ones. Spouting "survival of the fittest", as you're stomping on a poor man's face, strikes me as an expression of ego rather than a real intellectual thought.
 

subtlefuge

Lord Cromulent
May 21, 2010
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Social Darwinism is a way for people to justify being dicks, as opposed to everyone else who are still dicks, but choose not to justify it with Social Darwinism.
 

Doclector

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I guess I'm a social darwinist in a way. I sometimes think that we display way more "survival of the fittest" traits than we admit.

Thing is, though, I use that not as an excuse, but as a reason why people are terrible, and honestly, I think I only believe that sometimes because I have trouble facing the fact that some people are bad for no gorram reason.
 

Wargamer

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Social Darwinism is a fine idea, providing that is what you are actually doing.

There is no way on this earth that the "it's okay to be a twat" version could ever work. Think about it; most of the "fittest" in society are actually useless fucktards who contribute nothing to society beyond their own elite little clique.

Darwinism is about taking the best traits a species has and passing them on to the next generation, whilst abandoning lesser traits. This is the same in Social Darwinism. That means that, despite what they may think, Bankers are not the top of Darwin's dogpile. They probably belong somewhere off to the side, where they can be easily lopped off like the cancerous lumps they are.

This is why I like the idea of Social Darwinism. I despise the fact that virtually all the rulers and big players of the western world believe their purpose in life is to line their own wallets and fuck the rest of us over. The purpose of ALL of us is to improve the lives of EVERYONE in our society, and thus make us collectively a superior society to our peers - THAT is Darwinism.
 

The_Tron

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for a very different take on social darwinism I'd recommend watching the movie Idiocracy. Seriously it would almost make you believe that SD is not only an essential thing but a good thing. I know that may be a bit over the line in the general train of thought in this thread but they make some good points.
 

RN7

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Well you see, A long, long time ago in the mythical land of 1900's America and Europe, this priest and this psuedo-sociologist took the accurate ideas of Darwin and evolution, and more specifically the processes by which it occurs, and applied them to the inaccurate state of social disparity. They figured that since there were a few rich people who became rich by starting giant businesses (See Rockefeller and Carnegie) and there were poor people who were poor because they were dicked over by big business in some form or another, and because the government was on big business' side at the time, that rich people were rich because they were "fit", fitness being a term to describe an organism's biological ability to be successful in its environment and pass on its genes, to be rich, and the poor were poor because...well they were poor and "if we don't help the dirty poor people, we get more monies!"

Now an intelligent person would see that this theory is essentially entirely incorrect and based off of anecdotal evidence from almost a century ago that just applies stuff that sounds reasonable to someone who really wants to hold onto all of their riches. They would then say that this concept is dumb and shouldn't be so heavily relied upon.

Sadly not everyone is intelligent enough to see this.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Jack the Potato said:
Social Darwinism, for those who don't know, is the application of Darwin's "survival of the fittest" idea to everyday life. It's not a common label today because its ideas basically spawned countless atrocious and bigoted movements, including Nazism, but I see its principles applied EVERYWHERE, and every time I do, I can only ask "why?"

First off, there's the fact that "survival of the fittest" applies to entire species, NOT individuals. If one species of mouse is more able to hide from owls, that species is more likely to live and thrive than the others. That's it. That's the entire principle.

Yet people use survival of the fittest quite often as an excuse to be an asshole. They use it to justify taking advantage of those less fortunate ("I worked hard to be rich, obviously the poor haven't worked as hard as I did or they'd be rich too! Survival of the fittest!"), to justify doing downright dirty things to "win" ("I could have told Steve they bumped up the due date of the project so he wouldn't get fired, but now I'm getting his office! Survival of the fittest!") or just to be a bully ("Hey, if this nerd spent less time on his computer and more time at the gym, I wouldn't be able to shove him in his locker every day! Survival of the fittest!"). And of course, whenever someone says that, people often find it difficult to come up with a good counterpoint.

These people couldn't be more wrong if their feet grew out of their head! Going back to my species example, if one species of owl is much more adapt at cooperating with each other to catch delicious mice, that species is more likely to live and thrive than the others.

Cooperation. Teamwork. Kindness. Peace. These things will allow a species a much greater chance at surviving than any brutal, dirty, or cowardly method. Don't get me wrong either, humans are actually VERY good at these things, at least inside their own social groups. I just can't stand it when assholes pervert the most basic idea in nature and act like being nice makes you a "freak of nature." The only freaks of nature here are people who don't understand that we'll always achieve more working together than any individual, no matter how "fit," could.

So to those on this site who may find themselves, even only occasionally, thinking that survival of the fittest is an appropriate line of thought when dealing with things in your life, I humbly ask you to take a step back and reevaluate that.
Social Darwinism is a fine principle, the problem is the way how it's applied. The problem is when someone looks at a principle that is supposed to apply to large groups of people, and try and apply it on an individual level. Such as your example of a rich person using it as a justification to exploit a poor or less fortunate person. Especially seeing as the rich person himself is dependant on a social structure that prevents the strong from preying directly on the week to maintain his fortune and things like currency, or else that big dumb lug would just beat him upside the head and take everything, and we've live in a comparitive wasteland. Your smart guys will almost always be dominated by the dumb but strong without society keeping everything together so we can achieve more.

THAT said the bottom line is that some societies and social systems are simply better than others. What's more the arguement that we should preserve something "just because it's people" is also inherntly flawed, especially when it's causing problems for you. Social Darwinism is in part about replacing emotion with logic.

To put into into perspective, a society that has become a static theocracy that is trying to kill or convert everyone else for religious reasons, and contributes very little to the world socially even if it might have done so at one time, is not nessicarly something that people should preserve when it holds back both the people in that society, and represents a detriment to the rest of the world. When people hear me talking about breaking cultures and such, this is ultimatly what it comes down to, rather than any racism, or even hatred in any traditional sense. In the end I believe that in many cases the deaths of billions will benefit everyone, including the surviving people from that region, when viewed in the long term.

To some extent I feel that argueing against social darwinism tends to be MORE racist and bigoted. Cultural preservation oftentimes being an excuse to keep people wallowing in ignorance, "protecting the way of life" of some backwards or primitive people ultimatly means those people will remain backwards and primitive and not grow to join a greater society.

Of course I'm also self reflective in all of this, I myself have mentioned that the next step is a global unity, even if it ultimatly comes down to a "join or die" mentality once the spread of ideas has peaked. This means the dissolution of all nations including the US.

I also believe my own people in the USA are themselves set to be victims of social darwinism because on a lot of levels we're too advanced to exist in the current global climate. They very fact that people will make impassioned arguements against things like social darwinism, or even acting in the direct national interest when it comes to putting our interests ahead of someone else, while turning the other cheek when the same thing is done to us, makes us unworthy to survive and we're already seeing things eroding in the USA as this mentality deadlocks the US and prevents it from taking the actions needed to remain on top.

To a large extent one of the problems with the USA is our own ignorance and decadence. People in the US have become convinced that if they ignore problems, and just let other people do whatever they want, they can themselves be left alone and live their own lives peacefully. A lot of arguements for not intervening, ultimatly coming down to people not wanting to do anything. A war means having to go out and risk your life or those of your loved ones, social liberalism is easy because it's the path of least resistance because dealing with various minority groups ultimatly comes down to everyone having to get up and actually do something, it's easier to let the streets decay and be afraid to let your kids
go outside by actually going after all the wierdos. Very few people who support this kind of idealogy actually do it because they believe it's right, so much as it's easy and claiming it's right allows them to justify inaction. In the USA for example it's generally been argued that the right wing is about doing things, where the left wing is about doing nothing when you get down to it and how it influances the average person.

The point here being that in it's current form the USA is itself a victim of social darwinism, and you see it in our recent decay, and it's hard to say it's undeserved because the USA has rendered itself more or less incapable of saving itself or competing internationally.

I can understand why social darwinism isn't popular from a certain point of view, but in the end societies need to change and evolve like others, and they also have to remain competitive within their enviroment. Simple evlution does not always mean that evolution is a viable one, and there have been species that have rendered themselves extinct by evolving the wrong way (and the same can happen socially).
 

Saxnot

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what is the definition of social darwinism, anyway?
as i understand it from the original poster, it comes down to a justification of all inequality. this is a silly thing to believe, because it means that if i shoot someone, that is always allowed no matter what. after all, i was able to kill this person, so i am 'more fit'.

aside from that, there seems to be a conceptual gap between a theory describing a natural phenomena and a moral theory. you can't justify anything by saying that's how nature works, because that too leads to silly things. why shouldn't i be allowed to eat babies? it happens in nature too, after all.

i think we need to establish what social darwinism actually believes first.

unless it's just the 'bash this thing' thread of course, in which case: BOO!
 

Heronblade

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Saxnot said:
what is the definition of social darwinism, anyway?
as i understand it from the original poster, it comes down to a justification of all inequality. this is a silly thing to believe, because it means that if i shoot someone, that is always allowed no matter what. after all, i was able to kill this person, so i am 'more fit'.

aside from that, there seems to be a conceptual gap between a theory describing a natural phenomena and a moral theory. you can't justify anything by saying that's how nature works, because that too leads to silly things. why shouldn't i be allowed to eat babies? it happens in nature too, after all.

i think we need to establish what social darwinism actually believes first.

unless it's just the 'bash this thing' thread of course, in which case: BOO!
That is definitely not the definition of Social Darwinism. In some ways, that is the exact opposite of its meaning. The concept of "survival of the fittest" applies towards making sure the best traits are passed forward for an entire population, and distinctively negative traits get left behind, not specifically whether or not some random individual lunk can hold his own in a fight.

In point of fact, since our current survival and well being relies primarily on social interaction and intelligence rather than combat ability, the idiots who use the concept as justification for their negative actions are ironically among the LEAST fit, and among the first to get cut off, even according to their own interpretation of the term.

Let me put it another way, society has changed over time in fits and starts, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. A Social Darwinist that actually understand what the term means (they are unfortunately badly in the minority compared to the idiots the OP references), simply attempts to logically figure out what changes to society would benefit all or at least nearly all of mankind the most in the long run, and finds a way to help implement those changes, or alternatively, attempts to make sure that a change that would be negative in the long run does not occur. At its core, Social Darwinism is nothing more than a call for directed and planned self improvement for ALL people, regardless of caste, race, sex, or any other inherent distinctions we might name. That isn't so bad is it?
 

Luna

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Some people have an incorrect understanding of what 'fit' is.

You could be a CEO, 6 foot 2, swole, tan, with a sweet house and an awesome car, but if your 10/10 wife is getting banged by the pool boy when you're at work, and they have a kid, then he is fitter than you in this instance.

Secondly, people only ever use the argument when it benefits them. People that 'deserve to die' according to what is fit will most likely never admit it. Its obvious really, the attitude, 'Hey caveman 1, you can sleep with all the women. I acknowledge you to have superior genetics to me and I think your genes would help with the advancement of the tribe.' goes against most humans nature, because the people who thought like that wouldn't have any offspring.
 

Yopaz

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Jun 3, 2009
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Aurgelmir said:
Yopaz said:
Aurgelmir said:
RuneDrageon said:
Your right, in evolutional terms, the way were reproducing ourselves right now isn't helping us to evolve. But we have outdone most of these terms at the time weve advance technologie to a certain point, we can now reach nearly every place on earths surface and even reach out into space. Eventually we'll advance even further, where ever that will be, so the only things that can test mankinds survivalskills are global dangers.
We'll "survival of the fittest" might not still be a thing, but I am not sure we stopped evolving.

Space travel will probably affect evolution if humans travel through space for a long time or to other planets.
First it will be a selection of who can actually physically be able to survive prolonged travel in space, and then there will be a selection based on what children survive it too.

We need to send people to space FOR EVOLUTION AND SCIENCE!
I disagree with this. Evolution wont happen if we travel through space. If we want to travel long distanced through space we need to create a space shuttle that mimics earth's environment or we'll die within a few months. We will live just like we do on earth and not need to evolve. We're also unlikely to change our mating pattern or let people who aren't fit to survive their first few years die. We will treat diseases that could kill a small child and that child will grow up to be the same. No evolution because there's no new mating pattern based on who survives. The reason we currently aren't evolving (or evolving slowly) is that nature doesn't take its course. When we stop treating diseases we might evolve. If that's what it would take then I think we're better off staying like we are.
I disagree with your disagreement sir.

Because I think that the people that will be selected to go on said journey will be chosen by the space ship owners for having traits that will grant them safer journey through space.

You wouldn't take a weak cripple that might die in a few years over a healthy person that will live for lets say 50 more years.
So your space ship would already have people suited to be there, and these people will breed, and their traits will most likely be passed on.

But in any case evolution never ever happens fast, and it's wrong to say our evolution is going slow I think. But my main point earlier was that modern medicine might screw up our natural evolution.
And my point about space was that the people on the ship would eventually evolve away from the people left on earth. Because their environment will be different.
Sure, you wouldn't take a weak cripple to make a dangerous journey. However a person who might have died earlier because of lack of medicines might be sent out in space. Also even if you send people with good genes there's no guarantee that they would mate according to gentic compatibility. We're not like the peacock where the one with the most amazing feathers get to mate. We're not like the deer where the one with the biggest antlers get to mate. We're more like the octopus. The octopus mates with both the strongest and the smartest and end up with some smart offspring and some strong offspring. However unlike the octopus we usually stick with one partner.

You said that evolution never happens fast. You also said that the environment in a space shuttle would be unlike the environment on earth. With those two statements you explained why a space journey wont make us evolve. It is expected that we wont be able to survive a journey in s space shuttle more than a couple years at best unlike we emulate the environment on earth. Now we absolutely have to emulate that because unless we can unless all the participants of the journey got a 100% chance of dying. A couple of years is not enough to evolve. When they reach their destination (granted that they survive) they will still be taught the same ethics and the same morals.

Read my post properly. I already covered this. We can't adapt to a space environment fast enough to survive. Thus we will die and NOT evolve. Or we find an environment that we can survive in and we will stay the same because we wont mate with the best for the gene pool in our mind. Also we will most likely suffer from inbreed and die within a few generations.
 

dragonswarrior

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Feb 13, 2012
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Vault101 said:
aahhhh Simulord..Ive seen him on Cracked

shame he doesnt hang around anymore,anyway I think your talking about Misanthropes rather than social Darwinists

god I fucking hate Misanthropes...no really, their logic never makes any sense "I hate the evil and suffering in thr world, so I will do nothing to stop evil and suffering in the world....I will CAUSE evil and suffereing in the world (end the world scenarios) because I hate evil and suffering the world" misanthropes arnt "realists" theyre jsut weak
Can I just say that I fell in love with your descriptions of misanthropes?

Shawn MacDonald said:
Vault101 said:
Shawn MacDonald said:
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your just as bad as the rest of us. Although I have never met you in real life, I have met others like you. Like to think your human because you are typing words on a computer screen. Even I could be wrong and maybe your a robot. So welcome to the human race if you are a robot trying to fit in. Most humans like to think that they are different. "Ah hell no, I don't like that at all." Now what that really means is yes I do act that way, but if I say it out loud then it isn't true.
we'll you'd have to be more specific about what you mean

I'm well aware that people over estimate themselfs, belive that we are different from others, belive that we have more self control or that we have more "free will" and belive they are nicer than they are or that "it happnes to other people" its natual, we are the centres of our own worlds

I'm also aware than people can do amazing and horrible things given the right circumstances

now can't I say for sure how I would act in certain situations...would I keep pressing the button to electrocute the test subject because my supervisor says its ok? would I screw somone over to survive?

I plain don't know,

I've got no illusions as to how moral/amoral I am, but I certainly dont think its any good to assume that we are all scum underneith, living in the world requires elements of both good and bad

and nature doesnt have any concept of right or wrong
Sort of mean it on a smaller scale. Alot of the horrible things we do are not really that bad. Like a stranger asking you to hold their place in line and you don't do it. Even though they are pissed off about it, you don't care because you are not him. Say something mean to you and now you have justification for doing it. Most of the time people are rude when we don't do what they asked of us. Almost refreshing when someone is nice to us and we semi screwed them over. Not saying I am good person because I hold a grudge like a son of a ***** and it has costed me dearly on some things.
Hmmmmm... Yes well. You do not know the human race as you clearly do not have intimate knowledge on the inner workings of me or my friends. Sooooo... You should probably stop making blanket statements that don't apply to us. *grins* *winks*

There are a couple things wrong with your idea. The first (and my personal favorite) is what exactly defines who we are? By your definition, our selfishness and selfishness ALONE defines who we are. And well... Ya know. That just doesn't apply to a lot of people.

That's in addition to the fact that you are taking a very unrealistic view on what humans actually are. Which is understandable. It's very hard to separate media viewpoints from actual observation, which means you are being bombarded with views that are either way to(o?) pessimistic or way to(o?) optimistic. This couple with the fact that for whatever reason humans focus on the negative more than the positive means that you get a lot of people who like to believe that humans are basically scum.

I'm not necessarily saying that they aren't, just saying that you should probably try to think about it some more.
 

dragonswarrior

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Feb 13, 2012
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Shawn MacDonald said:
dragonswarrior said:
Vault101 said:
aahhhh Simulord..Ive seen him on Cracked

shame he doesnt hang around anymore,anyway I think your talking about Misanthropes rather than social Darwinists

god I fucking hate Misanthropes...no really, their logic never makes any sense "I hate the evil and suffering in thr world, so I will do nothing to stop evil and suffering in the world....I will CAUSE evil and suffereing in the world (end the world scenarios) because I hate evil and suffering the world" misanthropes arnt "realists" theyre jsut weak
Can I just say that I fell in love with your descriptions of misanthropes?

Shawn MacDonald said:
Vault101 said:
Shawn MacDonald said:
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your just as bad as the rest of us. Although I have never met you in real life, I have met others like you. Like to think your human because you are typing words on a computer screen. Even I could be wrong and maybe your a robot. So welcome to the human race if you are a robot trying to fit in. Most humans like to think that they are different. "Ah hell no, I don't like that at all." Now what that really means is yes I do act that way, but if I say it out loud then it isn't true.
we'll you'd have to be more specific about what you mean

I'm well aware that people over estimate themselfs, belive that we are different from others, belive that we have more self control or that we have more "free will" and belive they are nicer than they are or that "it happnes to other people" its natual, we are the centres of our own worlds

I'm also aware than people can do amazing and horrible things given the right circumstances

now can't I say for sure how I would act in certain situations...would I keep pressing the button to electrocute the test subject because my supervisor says its ok? would I screw somone over to survive?

I plain don't know,

I've got no illusions as to how moral/amoral I am, but I certainly dont think its any good to assume that we are all scum underneith, living in the world requires elements of both good and bad

and nature doesnt have any concept of right or wrong
Sort of mean it on a smaller scale. Alot of the horrible things we do are not really that bad. Like a stranger asking you to hold their place in line and you don't do it. Even though they are pissed off about it, you don't care because you are not him. Say something mean to you and now you have justification for doing it. Most of the time people are rude when we don't do what they asked of us. Almost refreshing when someone is nice to us and we semi screwed them over. Not saying I am good person because I hold a grudge like a son of a ***** and it has costed me dearly on some things.
Hmmmmm... Yes well. You do not know the human race as you clearly do not have intimate knowledge on the inner workings of me or my friends. Sooooo... You should probably stop making blanket statements that don't apply to us. *grins* *winks*

There are a couple things wrong with your idea. The first (and my personal favorite) is what exactly defines who we are? By your definition, our selfishness and selfishness ALONE defines who we are. And well... Ya know. That just doesn't apply to a lot of people.

That's in addition to the fact that you are taking a very unrealistic view on what humans actually are. Which is understandable. It's very hard to separate media viewpoints from actual observation, which means you are being bombarded with views that are either way to(o?) pessimistic or way to(o?) optimistic. This couple with the fact that for whatever reason humans focus on the negative more than the positive means that you get a lot of people who like to believe that humans are basically scum.

I'm not necessarily saying that they aren't, just saying that you should probably try to think about it some more.
Sorry man, but don't pull that shit where my opinion was influenced by the media and whats on t.v. Another person putting words in my mouth by saying that our faults are the only thing that defines us. Like to think that maybe you need to read what people wrote and then ask probing questions. Eventually you will see the other persons view point and not just thrust what you think they said back at them. Sorry but I don't need to meet you in real life because you have done shitty things. Alright with you, maybe you think this way because you saw it t.v. once. Now you know how it feels.
*goes back and rereads some of the discussion*

Ahhhh... I see I see. I did make a mistake and you have my apologies for that. However...

My first point (which really is the most important one) is still completely valid. How exactly do you define what traits are a persons real traits and which aren't? You seem to think it is the selfishness that defines what a person really is and I still think that is silly. (If I am rereading it wrong again (which is a definite possibility) please clarify.)

Also, I would like to say on the media subject... Yes. I did force some words in to(o?) your mouth. Again, my apologies. However, you cannot escape the fact that everything I said about the media and it's influence over us is true. And hell yea it applies to me!! Did I ever say it didn't? It is a daily fight that I always try to meet to the best of my ability.

Hmmm... I also smell delicious irony wafting through these posts. It is delicious.
 

DANEgerous

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Here is the problem you can come to full realization of what i am about to say by waling up to a creationist and saying "Darwin's survival of the fittest and evolution means we should kill one another!" to which they will reply "DERP!" in other words "Yes! The most evolved things are the one best suited to kill other things and tens to be the must deadly!" they say this because they are bloody fucking retards with an IQ around 75.

All you have to do is being up a fact like this.

You realize survival of the fittest applies to all living things right?

Yeah! Se it mean we should kill shit!

You mean like all those plants and herbivores do?

(Now it is time for possible bullshit answer #1) No! They are the least evolved! You fuckn' stupid!

To witch you can only reply the fact there is no most or least evolved animalm which they will promptly deny despite being a fact.

(if you get past that your response is generally.) But they live in groups! safety in numbers! can't kill them all! Predictors do not do that! DERP!

Then you bring up the solitary herbivore remind them that plants never huddle in groups and are included in survival of the fittest and mention packs of wolves and prides of lions only to get.

"Do not distort the facts! You are grasping at straws!" In short these people are intentionally ignorant to the facts. After this they are also likely yo say thing like "the goal of evolution is to..." as if evolution is some sentient being with goals it has set, i have even on more than one occasion got the response "the goal of evolution is to become a human" and in fact that is to this day what my father believes.
 

Booze Zombie

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Survival of the fit refers to those fit to survive, if you're alive, you're fit to survive.
This effectively means anyone you're not murdering is just as worthy of life as you and if they shoot you in the face, you were in fact "the unworthy one". The rigid speciality of almost everyone you see spouting the phrase is quite hilariously ironic, due to the "fitness" refering not to ability to beat down people but ability to adapt and survive.

A computer programmer may be seen as "adaptable" to technology, where as someone to lifts weights and such might be seen as adaptable in terms of biology.
It's a shame some don't realise this, blinded by their own success and a desire to fuel it with the displeasure of others.
 

BabySinclair

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dyre said:
I thought Social Darwinism was just something used by European and American imperialists in the 19th century, and is only used nowadays by middle school kids who haven't had a formal course teaching evolution yet, and thus don't have a clue what they're talking about.
To clarify a little, the theory used by Western imperialists was Social Evolution and there is a difference. Social Evolution was the theory touted by early anthropologists (who set us back a century) that cultures (ie societies) followed a linear evolutionary path. Nomadic savages => Barbarism/Chieftains => States => Industrial Nations or in short, "primitive" equals non-industrial chieftains, intermediate equals Rome or China, and fully evolved equals Europe and the US. Thus, "improving" more "primitive" nations was a kind way of speeding up an indigenous population's evolution.

Social Darwinism pretty much boils down to "the economically a/o politically wealthy/powerful are more fit than those with a lesser status." "Fitness" be the ability to breed and reproduce. Of course being born into wealth does not directly equate to being able to maintain wealth or build upon your own and the theory would be more workable if everything one owned (money, capital, holdings...) was not passed on to later generations rather achieved through hard wok/knowledge/dedication, that way people who are actually more adapted and suited for higher ecornomic/political positions could readily achieve them and improve their fitness. But we all know that's not how it works. Making the theory useless. Applies to technology and science too. "We have it so we're just better than you" mentality.

Oh and "survival of the fittest" is being used wrong by a number of people. "Fitness" for those who didn't read through the above is a measurement of sexual reproduction. Anyone who has not produced offspring is less "fit" than those that have. So "survival of the fittest" actually means "the more kids you can pump out the better," not "the fact that you're alive means something." There are a number of species that kill themselves in order to reproduce and they are pretty damn fit/prolific at it. Sorry, anthropological peeve of mine.

Booze Zombie said:
Survival of the fit refers to those fit to survive, if you're alive, you're fit to survive. This effectively means anyone you're not murdering is just as worthy of life as you and if they shoot you in the face, you were in fact "the unworthy one". The rigid speciality of almost everyone you see spouting the phrase is quite hilariously ironic, due to the "fitness" refering not to ability to beat down people but ability to adapt and survive.
Please read the paragraph above. The media's spin does not equal the anthropological and scientific definition of that phrase.
 

Saxnot

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Heronblade said:
Let me put it another way, society has changed over time in fits and starts, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. A Social Darwinist that actually understand what the term means (they are unfortunately badly in the minority compared to the idiots the OP references), simply attempts to logically figure out what changes to society would benefit all or at least nearly all of mankind the most in the long run, and finds a way to help implement those changes, or alternatively, attempts to make sure that a change that would be negative in the long run does not occur. At its core, Social Darwinism is nothing more than a call for directed and planned self improvement for ALL people, regardless of caste, race, sex, or any other inherent distinctions we might name. That isn't so bad is it?
not to be an asshole, but isn't that what pretty much everyone wants? everyone has an idea about what would benefit us most as a species, and wants to direct us towards that goal. but that aplies to born-again christianity just as much as it applies to scientific advancement.

correct me if i'm wrong, but wanting society to change in a way you think beneficial seems like a pretty universal desire to me.
 

WeaponisedCookie

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Nov 24, 2011
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Saxnot said:
Heronblade said:
Let me put it another way, society has changed over time in fits and starts, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. A Social Darwinist that actually understand what the term means (they are unfortunately badly in the minority compared to the idiots the OP references), simply attempts to logically figure out what changes to society would benefit all or at least nearly all of mankind the most in the long run, and finds a way to help implement those changes, or alternatively, attempts to make sure that a change that would be negative in the long run does not occur. At its core, Social Darwinism is nothing more than a call for directed and planned self improvement for ALL people, regardless of caste, race, sex, or any other inherent distinctions we might name. That isn't so bad is it?
not to be an asshole, but isn't that what pretty much everyone wants? everyone has an idea about what would benefit us most as a species, and wants to direct us towards that goal. but that aplies to born-again christianity just as much as it applies to scientific advancement.

correct me if i'm wrong, but wanting society to change in a way you think beneficial seems like a pretty universal desire to me.
Then you wouldn't believe the amount of lazy, incompetent people I had to put up with. They don't even want to advance themselves, let alone humanity.
 

Heronblade

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Apr 12, 2011
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Saxnot said:
Heronblade said:
Let me put it another way, society has changed over time in fits and starts, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. A Social Darwinist that actually understand what the term means (they are unfortunately badly in the minority compared to the idiots the OP references), simply attempts to logically figure out what changes to society would benefit all or at least nearly all of mankind the most in the long run, and finds a way to help implement those changes, or alternatively, attempts to make sure that a change that would be negative in the long run does not occur. At its core, Social Darwinism is nothing more than a call for directed and planned self improvement for ALL people, regardless of caste, race, sex, or any other inherent distinctions we might name. That isn't so bad is it?
not to be an asshole, but isn't that what pretty much everyone wants? everyone has an idea about what would benefit us most as a species, and wants to direct us towards that goal. but that aplies to born-again christianity just as much as it applies to scientific advancement.

correct me if i'm wrong, but wanting society to change in a way you think beneficial seems like a pretty universal desire to me.
Yes and no. The desire to improve one's lot in life is pretty much universal, and the desire to spread ideas that one likes is nearly universal. Those goals are not however necessarily compatible with what is best for the species. Social Darwinism would for example occasionally require working against one's own self interest for the sake of long term progress elsewhere, a requirement that very few are willing to meet.

As a specific example, the world would be better off if the UN was given the resources and authority it was supposed to have when originally conceived, but few of its member nations are willing to allow it, since that would reduce their own power. As it stands, an organization that might have been able to make strides towards improving the lot of people regardless of nationality, is little more than a running joke, and will remain that way for the foreseeable future.

It also requires more adaptability in ideas than most want to deal with. Once an idea is shown to not work, it needs to be adapted to fit the situation or dropped entirely in favor of something new, instead of the more common situation of it getting dragged around by stubborn people that keep trying the same thing over and over again while expecting different results. (For reference, see US Republican and Democratic parties)
 

Aurgelmir

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Nov 11, 2009
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Yopaz said:
Aurgelmir said:
Yopaz said:
Aurgelmir said:
RuneDrageon said:
Your right, in evolutional terms, the way were reproducing ourselves right now isn't helping us to evolve. But we have outdone most of these terms at the time weve advance technologie to a certain point, we can now reach nearly every place on earths surface and even reach out into space. Eventually we'll advance even further, where ever that will be, so the only things that can test mankinds survivalskills are global dangers.
We'll "survival of the fittest" might not still be a thing, but I am not sure we stopped evolving.

Space travel will probably affect evolution if humans travel through space for a long time or to other planets.
First it will be a selection of who can actually physically be able to survive prolonged travel in space, and then there will be a selection based on what children survive it too.

We need to send people to space FOR EVOLUTION AND SCIENCE!
I disagree with this. Evolution wont happen if we travel through space. If we want to travel long distanced through space we need to create a space shuttle that mimics earth's environment or we'll die within a few months. We will live just like we do on earth and not need to evolve. We're also unlikely to change our mating pattern or let people who aren't fit to survive their first few years die. We will treat diseases that could kill a small child and that child will grow up to be the same. No evolution because there's no new mating pattern based on who survives. The reason we currently aren't evolving (or evolving slowly) is that nature doesn't take its course. When we stop treating diseases we might evolve. If that's what it would take then I think we're better off staying like we are.
I disagree with your disagreement sir.

Because I think that the people that will be selected to go on said journey will be chosen by the space ship owners for having traits that will grant them safer journey through space.

You wouldn't take a weak cripple that might die in a few years over a healthy person that will live for lets say 50 more years.
So your space ship would already have people suited to be there, and these people will breed, and their traits will most likely be passed on.

But in any case evolution never ever happens fast, and it's wrong to say our evolution is going slow I think. But my main point earlier was that modern medicine might screw up our natural evolution.
And my point about space was that the people on the ship would eventually evolve away from the people left on earth. Because their environment will be different.
Sure, you wouldn't take a weak cripple to make a dangerous journey. However a person who might have died earlier because of lack of medicines might be sent out in space. Also even if you send people with good genes there's no guarantee that they would mate according to gentic compatibility. We're not like the peacock where the one with the most amazing feathers get to mate. We're not like the deer where the one with the biggest antlers get to mate. We're more like the octopus. The octopus mates with both the strongest and the smartest and end up with some smart offspring and some strong offspring. However unlike the octopus we usually stick with one partner.

You said that evolution never happens fast. You also said that the environment in a space shuttle would be unlike the environment on earth. With those two statements you explained why a space journey wont make us evolve. It is expected that we wont be able to survive a journey in s space shuttle more than a couple years at best unlike we emulate the environment on earth. Now we absolutely have to emulate that because unless we can unless all the participants of the journey got a 100% chance of dying. A couple of years is not enough to evolve. When they reach their destination (granted that they survive) they will still be taught the same ethics and the same morals.

Read my post properly. I already covered this. We can't adapt to a space environment fast enough to survive. Thus we will die and NOT evolve. Or we find an environment that we can survive in and we will stay the same because we wont mate with the best for the gene pool in our mind. Also we will most likely suffer from inbreed and die within a few generations.
Sure we would have to replicate earth conditions, but guess what even on earth humans evolved in different directions. I am not saying humans would evolve into a completely different organism straight away. But I still think that any humans that have lived in earth like environments away from earth would evolve differently.

Also what you talk about with regards to peacocks and feathers is what is called "survival of the sexes" and it is also something that happens to a degree in Humans. There are several traits that men and woman find attractive in others, ie "good looking people". It's just that not every woman/man find the same traits desirable, which means we have a lot of traits that go on.

Funny thing about traits. I read an article about how blue eyed men were more attracted to blue eyed women than other colors. The scientists believe this is because it's the man can then tell if the baby he has with this woman is his or not (since the child should most of the time have blue eyes too). Just a funny fact :)