Sony and Microsoft Do It Again!
- Thread starter tendo82
- Start date
Exactly my thoughts. The Wii-Mote and XBox-bar do gestures, the Sony-motes do real live INPUT. Put analog sticks, d-pads and triggers on those things and you'll have the best of both worlds - a playstation controler and a set of wii-chuksKwil said:
i just am hoping that they dont make any games that are dedicated to only using the motion sensing control, all there games they make with this should have "Optional Motion sensitive controls" so they dont release a game that looks really great only to be ruined by crappy motion sensitive controls, Hardcore gamers (like myself) don't want these controls, they are too gimmicky.
I have a Wii and was really, really excited about it getting released, only to go out 6 months later and buy an Xbox360 so I could get back to playing real games. (only to get RRODed and go buy a PS3 afterwards)
The only games that I like on Wii is Smash Bros, Mario Galaxy and Zelda. They are 3 of the highest rating games on the console and for the most part dont really use the motion sensors, apart from Zelda's Sword swipes, and arrow shooting and Marios Star collecting and spin jumps which they could have done with out.
I have a Wii and was really, really excited about it getting released, only to go out 6 months later and buy an Xbox360 so I could get back to playing real games. (only to get RRODed and go buy a PS3 afterwards)
The only games that I like on Wii is Smash Bros, Mario Galaxy and Zelda. They are 3 of the highest rating games on the console and for the most part dont really use the motion sensors, apart from Zelda's Sword swipes, and arrow shooting and Marios Star collecting and spin jumps which they could have done with out.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that saw this. Despite the fact that the presentation itself wasn't an impressive as the one for Project Natal, Sony got it right by clearly demonstrating that the precise control possible with their new tech can be used as a substitute for mouse control in genres like FPS and RTS. The presenters on stage also spoke directly to Natal when they said that one of the things they learned from EyeToy is the need for buttons or triggers. Right now I'm trying to figure out how Natal is more than an advanced EyeToy. Furthermore, to this grumpy PC gamer, it's got me thinking of definite increased potential for games I like on consoles. If I was a 3rd party dev that dabbles in one of these genres, I'd be most intrigued by Sony's offering at this point.Kwil said:
What made it worse for me, personally, was bringing Molyneux into the Natal presentation. Sure, Molyneux is a great innovator, but he's notoriously bad at creating fun games. Good ideas, bad implementation has been Lionhead's calling card for years. Sure, Milo is a great idea and all, but as a matter of practical gaming, what was shown falls short.
I am really fine with non motion sensing controls, really.
Natal, for example, may be big on possibilities (although the actual Milo seemed much more underwhelming, naturally, according to Eurogamer), but when it comes to using it for "non casual" Games, you don't really seem to benefit from the motion control. According to Eurogamer (again), a Demo with Burnout being played by imitating pedal and steering wheel movements was nice and responsive, but hardly as usable as playing with a controller (or a "real" steering wheel). Tony Hawks Ride won't use Natal because it is not accurate enough.
So, it seems like Natal just seems to be suited for EyeToy-ish Games, maybe with the odd innovative Idea thrown in the mix, along with gimmicky "applications".
As for Sony...things look a bit better, but i am once again rather skeptical when it comes to replacing usual controls. For example, just because it is more responsive to play an FPS with that instead of a controller, does not mean it is better. I could imagine that playing an FPS with motion control could be a rather frustrating affair, especially when your arms begin to get tired and you are not really that good at "real", precise aiming.
There will be a time when the common control methods in games will be replaced by something more intuitive, but honestly, i don't really see that change right now.
Natal, for example, may be big on possibilities (although the actual Milo seemed much more underwhelming, naturally, according to Eurogamer), but when it comes to using it for "non casual" Games, you don't really seem to benefit from the motion control. According to Eurogamer (again), a Demo with Burnout being played by imitating pedal and steering wheel movements was nice and responsive, but hardly as usable as playing with a controller (or a "real" steering wheel). Tony Hawks Ride won't use Natal because it is not accurate enough.
So, it seems like Natal just seems to be suited for EyeToy-ish Games, maybe with the odd innovative Idea thrown in the mix, along with gimmicky "applications".
As for Sony...things look a bit better, but i am once again rather skeptical when it comes to replacing usual controls. For example, just because it is more responsive to play an FPS with that instead of a controller, does not mean it is better. I could imagine that playing an FPS with motion control could be a rather frustrating affair, especially when your arms begin to get tired and you are not really that good at "real", precise aiming.
There will be a time when the common control methods in games will be replaced by something more intuitive, but honestly, i don't really see that change right now.
Personally, I think it's more a matter of third party developers are going to have to start understanding motion sensing as a tool in the tool box and not as a gimmick. For instance, the way I would recommend moving forward with Natal would be to keep the controller but use the facial system for optional advanced camera movements that don't effect the reticule. If you had a system such as Left4Dead has with the AI director, you can use body language as an additional weighting factor for enemy spawns. Also, allowing the player to move a hand for more complicated interaction with their environment. Or perhaps an updated version of the Arx Fatalis magic system.
Spending too much time or development dollars on games that are pure motion controlled but intended for an audience already comfortable with controllers seems like a waste to me. However, even pure motion control can get by without feeling too gimmicky, but you will need designers who are much more familiar with body language and natural movement patterns to pull it off well. Of course, you'll also need a way to handle lower body movement that doesn't require a 12'x12' area of free space. =P
Edit: An autopause feature if the player leaves the room could be nice, or something that allows a player to safely look away from the screen for a time.
Spending too much time or development dollars on games that are pure motion controlled but intended for an audience already comfortable with controllers seems like a waste to me. However, even pure motion control can get by without feeling too gimmicky, but you will need designers who are much more familiar with body language and natural movement patterns to pull it off well. Of course, you'll also need a way to handle lower body movement that doesn't require a 12'x12' area of free space. =P
Edit: An autopause feature if the player leaves the room could be nice, or something that allows a player to safely look away from the screen for a time.
No matter how good motion-sensing controllers get, there will always be a subset of people who don't want to wave their arms at a TV. In unrelated news, my Wii hasn't been booted up in months.
Any estimates on a consumer price point for Natal? I imagine it'll be somewhere in the range of 100 - 150 dollars (CDN).
Any estimates on a consumer price point for Natal? I imagine it'll be somewhere in the range of 100 - 150 dollars (CDN).
I'm curious how it's going to play out if the controls can port to other games. Playing an FPS on a Wii is way, way easier than with dual-analog. Are people are going to start bitching when everyone on Halo 3 is making Battle Rifle headshots without batting an eye?
You can't just change the controls on a console, it affects every game and the balance for them when you do it.
You can't just change the controls on a console, it affects every game and the balance for them when you do it.
Er, what? You realize the Wiimote and nunchuk have quite a few buttons, an analog stick and a dpad in addition to the whole motion deal? The Wii has had combined button and motion inputs since the beginning.300lb. Samoan said:
They are gimmicky when they are shoehorned into a game design meant for buttons. If the game is perfectly playable with a standard controller then motion controls CANNOT be more than a gimmick, a pointless addition. You complain that the controls are gimmicky and then demand that they remain gimmicky. They can do things regular controllers cannot and then they aren't gimmicky but too many game developers FAIL at developing games like that.asam92 said:
If Sony would release a dungeon-crawler with a nice variation of weapons, armours, spells, etc.
Include online deathmatches and co-op, and do it with a polished version of that sword/shield and bow/arrow tech demo with those two motion sticks I'm going to buy it.
Really, just imagine how fun that could be.
Surely Sony knows how great that idea is. They do, right?
Include online deathmatches and co-op, and do it with a polished version of that sword/shield and bow/arrow tech demo with those two motion sticks I'm going to buy it.
Really, just imagine how fun that could be.
Surely Sony knows how great that idea is. They do, right?
Hmm, I actually like Sony's approach better than Nintendo or Microsoft's. With Nintendo's announcement, I very much questioned the fidelity of the controller (even though I get the application, but the question of execution still lingers).
With Microsoft, I don't see the point of it. PSEye already do everything that Natal does in the video (except for the navigating the menus, but what's the point in that if I have to pick up my controller to play Gears anyways?). And then there's Milo. I don't see what's the point of having someone fake to talk to. Xbox Live already has an excellent community service, so why wouldn't I just talk to my party? There's no point to Milo. I'd never turn on my 360 and say "hey, let's talk to a fake person for no reason." And if Milo is a tech showcase on how it can be implemented in games as NPC, it'd seem better, but there still is no point. When I talk to NPCs, I want them to communicate to my character in a significant way that applies to the game so it reveals the characteristic of my character and the game world. I don't want the NPC to talk to me, the player, what's the point in that? It'd be like me walking into a weapons shop, and the NPC starts to talk about the economic crisis with me, why is that relevant to the game?
With Sony's reveal, the tech demo showed both how it can be implemented, how it can be revolutionary, and how well it can work. It shows me why I should care (finally a real way to play RTS on console that rivals the mouse? Can't wait), it shows me that it works much better than the Wii mote in that it's not just if(swingleft() == true) {presetMove();}. It's real fully 3D movement.
And Wii Motion Plus is still a joke to me. It doesn't change how the WiiMote is implemented. It's still mapping certain swings to certain commands, rather than having a full 1 to 1 imitation like Natal and PSMotion Control. It's just less frustrating than the original Wii Mote.
With that being said, Natal has potential, it has the same potential that PSEye has, which is very impressive. Milo is useless right now unless it works like a profile save so that in an open world game where the player gets to choose as good or evil, the NPCs can recognize your character's personality and morality and responds accordingly. PSMotion Control has potential to suck if no developer jump on it and Sony ends up making "Petting Zoo" with it. Or worse, a dev makes a game to showcase the controls and force the player to use motion control only *stares Lair*. Nintendo's Motion Plus to me is just more of the same, but a little bit better, meh.
With Microsoft, I don't see the point of it. PSEye already do everything that Natal does in the video (except for the navigating the menus, but what's the point in that if I have to pick up my controller to play Gears anyways?). And then there's Milo. I don't see what's the point of having someone fake to talk to. Xbox Live already has an excellent community service, so why wouldn't I just talk to my party? There's no point to Milo. I'd never turn on my 360 and say "hey, let's talk to a fake person for no reason." And if Milo is a tech showcase on how it can be implemented in games as NPC, it'd seem better, but there still is no point. When I talk to NPCs, I want them to communicate to my character in a significant way that applies to the game so it reveals the characteristic of my character and the game world. I don't want the NPC to talk to me, the player, what's the point in that? It'd be like me walking into a weapons shop, and the NPC starts to talk about the economic crisis with me, why is that relevant to the game?
With Sony's reveal, the tech demo showed both how it can be implemented, how it can be revolutionary, and how well it can work. It shows me why I should care (finally a real way to play RTS on console that rivals the mouse? Can't wait), it shows me that it works much better than the Wii mote in that it's not just if(swingleft() == true) {presetMove();}. It's real fully 3D movement.
And Wii Motion Plus is still a joke to me. It doesn't change how the WiiMote is implemented. It's still mapping certain swings to certain commands, rather than having a full 1 to 1 imitation like Natal and PSMotion Control. It's just less frustrating than the original Wii Mote.
With that being said, Natal has potential, it has the same potential that PSEye has, which is very impressive. Milo is useless right now unless it works like a profile save so that in an open world game where the player gets to choose as good or evil, the NPCs can recognize your character's personality and morality and responds accordingly. PSMotion Control has potential to suck if no developer jump on it and Sony ends up making "Petting Zoo" with it. Or worse, a dev makes a game to showcase the controls and force the player to use motion control only *stares Lair*. Nintendo's Motion Plus to me is just more of the same, but a little bit better, meh.
I like the looks of Natal, if it can actually pull off what they're showing and working towards in a flawless manner.
Half the problem with Wii motion controls is figuring out just what motion makes the game do what you're trying to do, then when you think you've got it, it isn't consistent.
Half the problem with Wii motion controls is figuring out just what motion makes the game do what you're trying to do, then when you think you've got it, it isn't consistent.
We're very obviously well beyond 1985 and light gun technology. You can't compare this to the good old days in the arcade. The size of your television is irrelevant as long as it is large enough so that you can see clearly (obviously you won't be using a console with a handheld TV). I think any of today's motion controllers have moved well beyond the inaccuracies of light guns as well.Anoctris said:
Actually, I've seen the Red Steel 2 demo. It's not 1-1 control. It's pseudo 1-1. When you are doing any commands, the game's arm is actually your arm, but when you actually perform a slash or a defend, it goes back to regular Wii Mote preset function. It works just like in old Wii Mote games like tennis in Wii Sport. The racket freely follows your movement, but when you issue a swing command, it follows a preset function (so when you just sharply swing the mote but not actually extending the swing like in real tennis, the Miis actually swing harder than if you actually extending the swing).Kwil said:
Whereas, the PSMotion Control showed completely 1-1 fidelity. When the guy swings the sword, the speed, exact positioning of the sword at all times are not preset at all. Same with defending.
Sony and Microsoft can't keep playing catch up or they're going to always be behind. MS and Sony decided they needed to have "Mii's" with the NXE and Home, now they need motion controls too. Just stick to your guns. If you keep spreading out everywhere you're just going to have one huge, expensive clusterfuck that doesn't do anything well.