Sony and Microsoft Do It Again!
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I'm glad I'm not the only one that saw this. Despite the fact that the presentation itself wasn't an impressive as the one for Project Natal, Sony got it right by clearly demonstrating that the precise control possible with their new tech can be used as a substitute for mouse control in genres like FPS and RTS. The presenters on stage also spoke directly to Natal when they said that one of the things they learned from EyeToy is the need for buttons or triggers. Right now I'm trying to figure out how Natal is more than an advanced EyeToy. Furthermore, to this grumpy PC gamer, it's got me thinking of definite increased potential for games I like on consoles. If I was a 3rd party dev that dabbles in one of these genres, I'd be most intrigued by Sony's offering at this point.Kwil said:
What made it worse for me, personally, was bringing Molyneux into the Natal presentation. Sure, Molyneux is a great innovator, but he's notoriously bad at creating fun games. Good ideas, bad implementation has been Lionhead's calling card for years. Sure, Milo is a great idea and all, but as a matter of practical gaming, what was shown falls short.
I am really fine with non motion sensing controls, really.
Natal, for example, may be big on possibilities (although the actual Milo seemed much more underwhelming, naturally, according to Eurogamer), but when it comes to using it for "non casual" Games, you don't really seem to benefit from the motion control. According to Eurogamer (again), a Demo with Burnout being played by imitating pedal and steering wheel movements was nice and responsive, but hardly as usable as playing with a controller (or a "real" steering wheel). Tony Hawks Ride won't use Natal because it is not accurate enough.
So, it seems like Natal just seems to be suited for EyeToy-ish Games, maybe with the odd innovative Idea thrown in the mix, along with gimmicky "applications".
As for Sony...things look a bit better, but i am once again rather skeptical when it comes to replacing usual controls. For example, just because it is more responsive to play an FPS with that instead of a controller, does not mean it is better. I could imagine that playing an FPS with motion control could be a rather frustrating affair, especially when your arms begin to get tired and you are not really that good at "real", precise aiming.
There will be a time when the common control methods in games will be replaced by something more intuitive, but honestly, i don't really see that change right now.
Natal, for example, may be big on possibilities (although the actual Milo seemed much more underwhelming, naturally, according to Eurogamer), but when it comes to using it for "non casual" Games, you don't really seem to benefit from the motion control. According to Eurogamer (again), a Demo with Burnout being played by imitating pedal and steering wheel movements was nice and responsive, but hardly as usable as playing with a controller (or a "real" steering wheel). Tony Hawks Ride won't use Natal because it is not accurate enough.
So, it seems like Natal just seems to be suited for EyeToy-ish Games, maybe with the odd innovative Idea thrown in the mix, along with gimmicky "applications".
As for Sony...things look a bit better, but i am once again rather skeptical when it comes to replacing usual controls. For example, just because it is more responsive to play an FPS with that instead of a controller, does not mean it is better. I could imagine that playing an FPS with motion control could be a rather frustrating affair, especially when your arms begin to get tired and you are not really that good at "real", precise aiming.
There will be a time when the common control methods in games will be replaced by something more intuitive, but honestly, i don't really see that change right now.
Personally, I think it's more a matter of third party developers are going to have to start understanding motion sensing as a tool in the tool box and not as a gimmick. For instance, the way I would recommend moving forward with Natal would be to keep the controller but use the facial system for optional advanced camera movements that don't effect the reticule. If you had a system such as Left4Dead has with the AI director, you can use body language as an additional weighting factor for enemy spawns. Also, allowing the player to move a hand for more complicated interaction with their environment. Or perhaps an updated version of the Arx Fatalis magic system.
Spending too much time or development dollars on games that are pure motion controlled but intended for an audience already comfortable with controllers seems like a waste to me. However, even pure motion control can get by without feeling too gimmicky, but you will need designers who are much more familiar with body language and natural movement patterns to pull it off well. Of course, you'll also need a way to handle lower body movement that doesn't require a 12'x12' area of free space. =P
Edit: An autopause feature if the player leaves the room could be nice, or something that allows a player to safely look away from the screen for a time.
Spending too much time or development dollars on games that are pure motion controlled but intended for an audience already comfortable with controllers seems like a waste to me. However, even pure motion control can get by without feeling too gimmicky, but you will need designers who are much more familiar with body language and natural movement patterns to pull it off well. Of course, you'll also need a way to handle lower body movement that doesn't require a 12'x12' area of free space. =P
Edit: An autopause feature if the player leaves the room could be nice, or something that allows a player to safely look away from the screen for a time.
No matter how good motion-sensing controllers get, there will always be a subset of people who don't want to wave their arms at a TV. In unrelated news, my Wii hasn't been booted up in months.
Any estimates on a consumer price point for Natal? I imagine it'll be somewhere in the range of 100 - 150 dollars (CDN).
Any estimates on a consumer price point for Natal? I imagine it'll be somewhere in the range of 100 - 150 dollars (CDN).
I'm curious how it's going to play out if the controls can port to other games. Playing an FPS on a Wii is way, way easier than with dual-analog. Are people are going to start bitching when everyone on Halo 3 is making Battle Rifle headshots without batting an eye?
You can't just change the controls on a console, it affects every game and the balance for them when you do it.
You can't just change the controls on a console, it affects every game and the balance for them when you do it.
Er, what? You realize the Wiimote and nunchuk have quite a few buttons, an analog stick and a dpad in addition to the whole motion deal? The Wii has had combined button and motion inputs since the beginning.300lb. Samoan said:
They are gimmicky when they are shoehorned into a game design meant for buttons. If the game is perfectly playable with a standard controller then motion controls CANNOT be more than a gimmick, a pointless addition. You complain that the controls are gimmicky and then demand that they remain gimmicky. They can do things regular controllers cannot and then they aren't gimmicky but too many game developers FAIL at developing games like that.asam92 said:
If Sony would release a dungeon-crawler with a nice variation of weapons, armours, spells, etc.
Include online deathmatches and co-op, and do it with a polished version of that sword/shield and bow/arrow tech demo with those two motion sticks I'm going to buy it.
Really, just imagine how fun that could be.
Surely Sony knows how great that idea is. They do, right?
Include online deathmatches and co-op, and do it with a polished version of that sword/shield and bow/arrow tech demo with those two motion sticks I'm going to buy it.
Really, just imagine how fun that could be.
Surely Sony knows how great that idea is. They do, right?
Hmm, I actually like Sony's approach better than Nintendo or Microsoft's. With Nintendo's announcement, I very much questioned the fidelity of the controller (even though I get the application, but the question of execution still lingers).
With Microsoft, I don't see the point of it. PSEye already do everything that Natal does in the video (except for the navigating the menus, but what's the point in that if I have to pick up my controller to play Gears anyways?). And then there's Milo. I don't see what's the point of having someone fake to talk to. Xbox Live already has an excellent community service, so why wouldn't I just talk to my party? There's no point to Milo. I'd never turn on my 360 and say "hey, let's talk to a fake person for no reason." And if Milo is a tech showcase on how it can be implemented in games as NPC, it'd seem better, but there still is no point. When I talk to NPCs, I want them to communicate to my character in a significant way that applies to the game so it reveals the characteristic of my character and the game world. I don't want the NPC to talk to me, the player, what's the point in that? It'd be like me walking into a weapons shop, and the NPC starts to talk about the economic crisis with me, why is that relevant to the game?
With Sony's reveal, the tech demo showed both how it can be implemented, how it can be revolutionary, and how well it can work. It shows me why I should care (finally a real way to play RTS on console that rivals the mouse? Can't wait), it shows me that it works much better than the Wii mote in that it's not just if(swingleft() == true) {presetMove();}. It's real fully 3D movement.
And Wii Motion Plus is still a joke to me. It doesn't change how the WiiMote is implemented. It's still mapping certain swings to certain commands, rather than having a full 1 to 1 imitation like Natal and PSMotion Control. It's just less frustrating than the original Wii Mote.
With that being said, Natal has potential, it has the same potential that PSEye has, which is very impressive. Milo is useless right now unless it works like a profile save so that in an open world game where the player gets to choose as good or evil, the NPCs can recognize your character's personality and morality and responds accordingly. PSMotion Control has potential to suck if no developer jump on it and Sony ends up making "Petting Zoo" with it. Or worse, a dev makes a game to showcase the controls and force the player to use motion control only *stares Lair*. Nintendo's Motion Plus to me is just more of the same, but a little bit better, meh.
With Microsoft, I don't see the point of it. PSEye already do everything that Natal does in the video (except for the navigating the menus, but what's the point in that if I have to pick up my controller to play Gears anyways?). And then there's Milo. I don't see what's the point of having someone fake to talk to. Xbox Live already has an excellent community service, so why wouldn't I just talk to my party? There's no point to Milo. I'd never turn on my 360 and say "hey, let's talk to a fake person for no reason." And if Milo is a tech showcase on how it can be implemented in games as NPC, it'd seem better, but there still is no point. When I talk to NPCs, I want them to communicate to my character in a significant way that applies to the game so it reveals the characteristic of my character and the game world. I don't want the NPC to talk to me, the player, what's the point in that? It'd be like me walking into a weapons shop, and the NPC starts to talk about the economic crisis with me, why is that relevant to the game?
With Sony's reveal, the tech demo showed both how it can be implemented, how it can be revolutionary, and how well it can work. It shows me why I should care (finally a real way to play RTS on console that rivals the mouse? Can't wait), it shows me that it works much better than the Wii mote in that it's not just if(swingleft() == true) {presetMove();}. It's real fully 3D movement.
And Wii Motion Plus is still a joke to me. It doesn't change how the WiiMote is implemented. It's still mapping certain swings to certain commands, rather than having a full 1 to 1 imitation like Natal and PSMotion Control. It's just less frustrating than the original Wii Mote.
With that being said, Natal has potential, it has the same potential that PSEye has, which is very impressive. Milo is useless right now unless it works like a profile save so that in an open world game where the player gets to choose as good or evil, the NPCs can recognize your character's personality and morality and responds accordingly. PSMotion Control has potential to suck if no developer jump on it and Sony ends up making "Petting Zoo" with it. Or worse, a dev makes a game to showcase the controls and force the player to use motion control only *stares Lair*. Nintendo's Motion Plus to me is just more of the same, but a little bit better, meh.
I like the looks of Natal, if it can actually pull off what they're showing and working towards in a flawless manner.
Half the problem with Wii motion controls is figuring out just what motion makes the game do what you're trying to do, then when you think you've got it, it isn't consistent.
Half the problem with Wii motion controls is figuring out just what motion makes the game do what you're trying to do, then when you think you've got it, it isn't consistent.
We're very obviously well beyond 1985 and light gun technology. You can't compare this to the good old days in the arcade. The size of your television is irrelevant as long as it is large enough so that you can see clearly (obviously you won't be using a console with a handheld TV). I think any of today's motion controllers have moved well beyond the inaccuracies of light guns as well.Anoctris said:
Actually, I've seen the Red Steel 2 demo. It's not 1-1 control. It's pseudo 1-1. When you are doing any commands, the game's arm is actually your arm, but when you actually perform a slash or a defend, it goes back to regular Wii Mote preset function. It works just like in old Wii Mote games like tennis in Wii Sport. The racket freely follows your movement, but when you issue a swing command, it follows a preset function (so when you just sharply swing the mote but not actually extending the swing like in real tennis, the Miis actually swing harder than if you actually extending the swing).Kwil said:
Whereas, the PSMotion Control showed completely 1-1 fidelity. When the guy swings the sword, the speed, exact positioning of the sword at all times are not preset at all. Same with defending.
Sony and Microsoft can't keep playing catch up or they're going to always be behind. MS and Sony decided they needed to have "Mii's" with the NXE and Home, now they need motion controls too. Just stick to your guns. If you keep spreading out everywhere you're just going to have one huge, expensive clusterfuck that doesn't do anything well.
Red Steel 2 began production without motion plus, which is a shame, but it is what it is. If Nintendo asked them to create a tech demo for the motion plus with Red Steel as a template, then you would have seen 1-1.ThisNewGuy said:
The Wii Motion Plus is 1-1 control, and it's pretty much been shown through Wii Sports Resort. They hadn't gone into so much detail in Wii Sports resort but then why would they wan't to for a game that's trying to appeal to everyone? Hell even a developer said that the motion plus was 'too sensitive', so what does that say?
Exactly, which is why motion plus support on the Wii has to implemented like it's practically a different controller, and optional support is not an option.L.B. Jeffries said:
Well see that's the problem I foresaw. The answer I personally see is acquisition of developers as second and first parties to be the answer. It's been reported on numerous occasions that Rare has been developing games for Natal for some time now, and while I don't see Natal as being something that can be implemented into mainstream killer app titles, Microsoft are going about that the right way. However cracking the whip on just one developer isn't going to cut it, like (Nin)tendo said:KDR_11k said:
They need to acquire development studios to develop games in house, or show developers the way, and that's if they are willing enough to gamble on such a thing, something that many developers were thinking motion control on the Wii was, a gamble. Which means both companies are going to have to acquire dev studios as second party developers as well as make a push for third parties to do it for them in my opinion. Couple that with the development cost of titles on both consoles, it's risky.tendo82 said:
If this were to be added onto killer app titles, I could see them taking an extra six months to a year to develop, so yes maybe in a way they are going to be late to the party.
However I do see them having a great deal of potential, and let's hope they aren't being short sighted on this whole thing. I was still pretty impressed with Natal, but it is going to have to have some unique titles to draw in it's already existing audience (immersive titles I imagine) especially considering that it's lack of controller might be a bit disconnecting, because from what we saw it was aiming at a different audience altogether.
At this moment why should they want to focus on a WiiSports-like app. in a presentation?
Just to get a "meh... already seen that crap. They are doing the same. They are imitating Nintendo!" from the press?
Nintendo has already locked down the casuals and off course the Mario/Zelda followers.
Obviously those casuals don't care about precision, HD or online (see the shut-down of SSB) in their gaming machines.
Nintendo did the right thing to gain maximum profit and sold a imprecise motion controller to a non-gaming mass audience.
With WiiM+ we are witnessing their plan to achieve maximum profit going full circle.
What Sony and MS now have to do is to make hardcore games using their new precise motion controls and convince other developers that there is a pay-off if they do the same.
Sony already showed some bow and sword/shield action.
Let's take it to the next level! Make an Elder Scrolls like game that uses this controls!!!
Just to get a "meh... already seen that crap. They are doing the same. They are imitating Nintendo!" from the press?
Nintendo has already locked down the casuals and off course the Mario/Zelda followers.
Obviously those casuals don't care about precision, HD or online (see the shut-down of SSB) in their gaming machines.
Nintendo did the right thing to gain maximum profit and sold a imprecise motion controller to a non-gaming mass audience.
With WiiM+ we are witnessing their plan to achieve maximum profit going full circle.
What Sony and MS now have to do is to make hardcore games using their new precise motion controls and convince other developers that there is a pay-off if they do the same.
Sony already showed some bow and sword/shield action.
Let's take it to the next level! Make an Elder Scrolls like game that uses this controls!!!
Even watching Wii Sports Resort. Watch the basketball shootout. It is definitely not 1-1 fidelity. It's definitely you just doing a sorta shoot-ish move and the preset command occurs.ChromeAlchemist said:
Also, the Gametrailers TV had a table tennis match on Resort, and it is definitely not 1-1. It's just like the old Wii Mote where you just swing whereever you want and the game sees it's left sided or right sided and just do a preset swing for you.
Having said that, I haven't tried the new motion plus, but that's just what I saw from the gameplay videos.
