Sony Breaks Out the Lawyers Over PS3 Hacks

[mjc0961]

I really don't know enough to say if those guys should get their pants sued off or not.

I do know Sony brought this all upon themselves though, and I do hope they lose every lawsuit they had filed against them for their removal of the Install Other OS feature.

 

[Modus Operandi]

They not stupid and they aren't going to waste large amounts of money on a case that they don't stand a chance of wining.

All big companies have lawyers on-staff, who get paid every month anyway, so this suit costs them nothing but court fees. Which, I'll venture a guess, is less than peanuts for a giant like Sony.

And it's a reasonable first assumption that they wouldn't do it without a good chance of success, but think about it -- what else could they do? Imagine if it was obvious from the start that they couldn't win and wouldn't get anything if they did, what would they do? Admit they're powerless and say to their stockholders "we're screwed, bend over and take it"? Business politics and PR demand, on the pain of bankruptcy, to maintain an image of success and progress at any cost, completely regardless of whether anything is (or can) actually being done.

It's the same with stopping the hack -- it's very probable they can't do that either (according to what the hackers have said publicly), but again, think about it. What else could they say, if the hackers were right, other than "we're working on it"? If they openly admit defeat, they will lose a lot of credibility and trust, and in business world that's a blow that no amount of piracy could rival.

So I wouldn't be too sure that just because they're suing, they are certain they will win. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but they have to sue, there's nothing else they can do.

 

[Dublin Solo]

I can't say I blame Sony for filing a lawsuit. It's piracy, the guys at Failoverflow can't pretend they didn't know they were breaking a rule somewhere.

Um, no, Using the F0 exploit in no way could allow you to pirate games. Ever. Geohot's could, but that's because he cracked the game loader.

I didn't say anything about game piracy. They pirated the console. Maybe that's not the correct term, but according to the article:

", the defendants have, among other complaints, violated the Digital Millennium Copyrights Act, the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, and contributed to copyright infringement. "

But anyway.

 

[mikecoulter]

I suppose what they're doing could be classed as 'unhelpful' but, what people do to their own consoles after they've bought them should be up to them.

 

[James Raynor]

What do you hope to accomplish sony? Even if you successfully stop them there are hundreds of other hackers and you cannot get them all.

 

[poiuppx]

Realistically, this was only a matter of time, and the Fail0verflow guys HAD to know this was coming, no matter what language they dressed it up in. You don't point out the weaknesses in a bank's security system in a public forum and then not expect to get slapped down when people start raiding the bank with what you provided.

Still, I admit, their strategy is pretty damn smart if they're not asking for damages. Logic dictates that the scare-suit, where you hit people with crazy damages, MIGHT work on a psychological level, but thanks to a lot of recent events, it's just becoming unpopular in a big way. Buuuut... demanding everything used for those purposes be turned over and then destroyed hits them in a different and more potentially acceptable way. And it actually does something, to a degree, about the root cause. One assumes that would represent a significant investment, not merely in dollars, but time and energy on the part of this group. If Sony wins, odds are they're out of the game. If Sony focuses exclusively on the guys doing the cracking, avoids asking for damages, and just basically cripples their ability to crack the system, it might be enough to dissuade future attempts.

 

[AugustFall]

I'm a bit torn on this. I just don't like the idea of buying something and it being illegal to do something to it. It's mine, if I want to play homebrew on it then the fuck is wrong with that? If I were to pirate something then the act of pirating should be illegal sure, but not the modding of my console.

 

[BehattedWanderer]

Go for it Sony. PS3 piracy is still in it's infancy, and can still be stopped, if you move fast enough. You've been great about it so far, having limited every other means. Maintain your record.

 

[Kenjitsuka]

"Sony wants anything used in the cracking of the console - things like computer hardware, hard drives, and even the code the defendants used - impounded and destroyed"
I would really have expected impounded to be studied. Because that's what Sony needs, some really smart people (or their work) to improve their security.

Read back on the Escapist to see Fail0verflow's video presentation and you will see how extremely poorly the current security actually was designed.

 

[Kross]

It's pretty simple. You can't get in trouble for reverse engineering something you own. You can't get in trouble for revealing secrets you didn't sign an NDA for. If you could, this kind of lawsuit would have had a precedent established years ago.

You can however, make shit up under ambiguous laws and hope the defense can't afford lawyers, or that you catch them on some other loophole relating to business law (like making a profit).

 

[dochmbi]

It would be much easier for Sony to protect their interests if instead of selling property rights they would only sell limited usage rights to their customers.

 

[Shadeovblack]

Resistance is futile.

 

[Flauros]

Sony brought this on themselves. When they removed OtherOS once GeoHot figured out how to run unsigned code, he basically said "Right, you want to play it that way? I'm game."

Yes it's entirely possible that he would've continued hacking it anyway, but it certainly seemed he had no intention of doing what he has now done. Still, time will tell who wins this battle.

EDIT: Thought I better add that I neither condone nor condemn GeoHot and Fail0verflow before I get accused of supporting piracy.[/quote

"you wanna play hardball? Im game" Jim Carrey impression

Why is everybody obsessed with this other OS thing? I mean, cant you just use a computer? Why buy a ps3 when you can use a better computer...thats better at computer things....

 

[Flauros]

I don't like what Failoverflow are during since it helps piracy, but I hate that you are not legally able to do it. Whatever you want to do with a product that is legally bought, should not be up to other the decide.

Here here to once I own the product I own the product so it's mine to do as I please. If I choose to "mod" it with a hammer that's my choice. Can you imagine Honda coming after everyone who has put a performance chip in their car to bypass the original fuel injection mappings that the Honda engineers put in their on board computers? I think not. It's what you do after you make the mod that's the problem. Pirating software or in the Honda's case street racing. Not everyone who mods their Honda is going to street race, but if they do and kill someone, who is at fault the street racer or the manufacturer of the chip?

Can you modify your Honda to use stolen merchandise, or to steal things? If yes, then yeah, they will probably come down on you for that, too.

I can understand wanting to watch a movie or a game for free....but to actually get mad for a company stealing something BACK...i mean, if its just a jungle out there, then arent they doing what you want them to do? Fight?

 

[Tron Paul]

Honestly to all those people who say "Buy a computer" you're not a tinkerer. You're not interested with "How things work" as these hackers are. A PS3 is an insanely powerful computing device for the price. You can do some extreme number crunching with it. Just because YOU don't see a use for it doesn't mean there isn't one. Watch the full 4 part videos and see how much knowledge went into getting the PS3 to run linux again.

For examples researchers proved in 2008 that MD5 signed certificates (what's can be used to encrypt pages with SSL) are broken. They did this using 200 PS3's running in parallel to do some heavy number crunching. They were able to generate an intermediate certificate which would validate them as ANY domain on the internet. http://hackaday.com/2008/12/30/25c3-hackers-completely-break-ssl-using-200-ps3s/

I'm tired of the stigma people place on "hackers". Hackers are the innovators, the people that saw something could be improved and then went and did it. Some script kiddying dirtbag on the internet is not a hacker. FailOverfl0w and the people at conventions like the Chaos Conference and Defcon are hackers.

I'm also tired of reading the comments and seeing praise for Sony's actions. This is crap, EULA's are crap, DMCA is crap, and if I end up getting a PS3, I'm doing whatever the hell I want to it because I OWN the ****'ing thing. I shelled out MY money for it it's MINE.

tl;dr Sony is crap. Hackers are awesome. FailOverfl0w has nothing to do with piracy. Whatever I buy with my money is mine to do with as I please.

Can you modify your Honda to use stolen merchandise, or to steal things? If yes, then yeah, they will probably come down on you for that, too.

Has the fail0verflow team stolen anything? If yes, what have they stolen. If yes, why isn't this matter a criminal one and not in a civil court. Can Honda really "come down on you" if you use their car to steal things? For answer, see schematic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvzrJzOTrLM

[UPDATE] This professor is awesome http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/GeoHot/

 

[orangecharger]

It's what you do after you make the mod that's the problem. Pirating software or in the Honda's case street racing. Not everyone who mods their Honda is going to street race, but if they do and kill someone, who is at fault the street racer or the manufacturer of the chip?

Can you modify your Honda to use stolen merchandise, or to steal things? If yes, then yeah, they will probably come down on you for that, too.

I can understand wanting to watch a movie or a game for free....but to actually get mad for a company stealing something BACK...i mean, if its just a jungle out there, then arent they doing what you want them to do? Fight?

It seems to me that Sony is not coming after the thieves they are coming after the person who enabled the theft. Unless I am not understanding the story correctly I stand by my analogy. It would be the same as the police arresting the manufacturer of the chip, rather than the person who was street racing to test out their newly installed chip. A head shop can sell you the pipe to smoke the weed, but if you smoke the weed you are the one that's in trouble. A satellite store can modify your satellite box, but if you choose to use it to steal satellite you are at fault. A hardware store can sell you bolt cutters, if you use them to break into someone's shed and steal their lawn mower, you are at fault.

EDIT: So we are clear I am not advocating theft -- I don't even own a PS3 and my 360 is not modded. I am saying that coming after the one who came up with the exploit isn't going to stand up in court. They didn't steal anything by doing that. They modified a piece of hardware that they own. The people who take that mod and use it to pirate are the ones who are stealing.

I don't think Sony will win going about it this way. Time will tell.