Sony Gains Access to PS3 Hacker's PayPal Account

[Justanothergamer300]

Sony I think your going a little too far with this

 

[Brad Shepard]

Sony? Yea, Brad Shepard here, You got enough money to NOT CARE ABOUT THIS! Get off your cross of "Oh we have had a case of ze hacks!" And get the hell over it.

You're thinking of the Wii. Sony lost $300 on every 20GB PS3 at launch and the PS3 stopped bleeding money in July.

its not like the PS3 isn't there only means of income.

 

[The_Yeti]

I say go Sony, that prick deserves the death penalty for dicking around with someone else's hard work, I can bet if it did come with a death penalty that prick wouldn't have bothered.

All hackers can just go die, along with but not limited to every prick in the world that decides they can easy-street life by stealing or fraudulently and effectively selling / manipulating others work.

 

[cerebus23]

Welcome to last decade, when corporations gutted "fair use" laws, to pave the way to saying you did not actually own dvds, cds, and games you bought, but that you just are borrowing a license, and therefore you have no right to make a personal copy or do anything with them. or reincode movies you own if you move to a different region so they work on that regions dvd players etc, nope you are required to burn your dvds, cds and games and rebuy your whole library.

Where was all this outrage when this was going on? There is a more valid argument that i should be able to buy a barney dvd for my kids, make a backup copy for them to view since you know kids like to color throw break dvds given half a chance but the gitted laws say that is illegal and i should just give them the retail dvd and pay to have it replaced when something goes wrong. Same thing with games, you used to be able to make a personal backup copy that was all good under fair use, i think it even still held for vhs and cassettes.

This is bigger than some random geek that hacked a ps3 vs the evil corp sony, this is a case that will determine if you in fact own or do not own your console and have the right to do with it what you want, that includes smash it with a hammer, throw it in the bathtub, or reverse engineer it. Those are the stakes here.

Sony does seem to be going overboard in its scope, but if the judge allowed it i think it is safe to assume that they showed the judge something that seemed to indicate that something was going on despite his claims, it sure seems like they would have had to to to just allow them to go digging thru all his paypal records.

This case is far more interesting and important tho to be flaming each other over. This case could determine your rights on your wii or xbox or ps3 for decades to come.

Eh...? So wait... Making .iso backups of all my retail games is illegal in the US?

Yes since fair use has been gutted you do not own your dvds, cds, and game library you are borrowing a license to watch, listen and play, fair use laws should have been better defended in the digital age. Instead of the entertainment industry paying lobbists and pollsters gobs of money to strip those laws.

 

[MagicMouse]

I say go Sony, that prick deserves the death penalty for dicking around with someone else's hard work, I can bet if it did come with a death penalty that prick wouldn't have bothered.

All hackers can just go die, along with but not limited to every prick in the world that decides they can easy-street life by stealing or fraudulently and effectively selling / manipulating others work.

Wishing death on the people you side against is sure to make your opinion seem mature and worth considering!

OP: I side with "Teh Evil Haxorz" on this one. Sony removed a feature, he got it back. If anything he made their product better.

 

[Maxman3002]

This guy just lost the case then. I mean now sony is going to treat it like any money he received was for the hacking of the console. Which means any money he gotten since the PS3 came out is likely to be called in as payment for the service.
Sony beaten this guy right off the bat.

Can they make that assumpsion though? Just because he did something related to their console and at the same time as recieved money from people doesnt make it that he has made money off their product does it? Just because 2 things happen at the same time doesnt mean they are related.

It doesnt work in medicine and id like to think its not how the legal system works

Besides, ive never visited his site, but from what I understand hes never charged for anything has he? If im wrong then fine, sony has a good case here. But if anything hes ever done has been released free of charge then how does his paypal accounts prove anything?

The only thing I thought sony were proving is the number of people who have hacked and stolen games through the hack, in which case, shouldnt they be getting torrent site records for those that have downloaded pirate PS3 games?

I genuinly dont understand this legal case due to being English and having no legal experiance

There is a reason why people in America says a good lawyer can get you out of anything. Imagine trying to explain every payment you ever received against someone who can spin what you say as proof that you are XYZ. He has to tell them every payment he recieved isn't because of selling his trade. Sony lawyers are going to look for any hole no matter how small it is to prosecute him. It basically to walk a tight rope above the grand canyon with tornado winds, all while the rope is on fire and people are throwing crap at you.

So I dont get it, is the american legal system screwing him? Or is it a good thing because its giving sony a chance to get what they deserve? Some people are defending this like its an effective and cleaver legal system which is giving Sony a chance for something it deserves whilst others are suggesting this is a way of blocking him every direction and finding any excuse to get at the guy with smaller lawyers

 

[Femaref]

The DMCA seems to be a "get someone into jail for free" card for corporations...

Read the U.S. Copyright Act of 1976. It's a criminal offense to hack or otherwise circumvent copyright protection measures, including DRM. The DMCA not a 'get someone into jail for free' card; it's meant to protect companies Intellectual Properties.

Wouldn't you seek injunction, impoundment, and/or destruction of any soft- and hardware that was used by someone to break into your computer? Or perhaps financial compensation if they put, or something on your computer that was not supposed to be there? Or, conversely, took something from your computer that you found valuable?

I totally agree with intellectual property being supposed to be protected (I'm programmer myself). However, there is a difference between "protecting IP" and totally walking over the law and taking a dump on if once done.

The only reason why geohot is getting targeted is easily seen: he is an available target for sony to beat upon. Not saying he did everything right (making the procedure public with sony having a reputation of beating on someone like that), but the subponaes Sony got are over the top and they would never have gotten them outside california.

On a sidenote: really read up on the word "hacker", it doesn't mean what you think it does.

 

[Loonerinoes]

The DMCA seems to be a "get someone into jail for free" card for corporations...

How dare you insult the perfectly reasonable concept of intellectual property that by the way only serves to justify an increasingly corrupt corporate society?

Meh...I guess money will talk here, including by the way as to which of the parties is more likely to generate future revenue and hire more lobbyists. And that probably won't be Hotz. I might be a bit more optimistic if the company doing the suing actually had a better track record when it came to keeping a sense of actual world perspective...but this is Sony after all.

 

[twaddle]

Do you think that there is any chance sony is bribing the judges?

 

[gundamrx101]

Welcome to last decade, when corporations gutted "fair use" laws, to pave the way to saying you did not actually own dvds, cds, and games you bought, but that you just are borrowing a license, and therefore you have no right to make a personal copy or do anything with them. or reincode movies you own if you move to a different region so they work on that regions dvd players etc, nope you are required to burn your dvds, cds and games and rebuy your whole library.

Where was all this outrage when this was going on? There is a more valid argument that i should be able to buy a barney dvd for my kids, make a backup copy for them to view since you know kids like to color throw break dvds given half a chance but the gitted laws say that is illegal and i should just give them the retail dvd and pay to have it replaced when something goes wrong. Same thing with games, you used to be able to make a personal backup copy that was all good under fair use, i think it even still held for vhs and cassettes.

This is bigger than some random geek that hacked a ps3 vs the evil corp sony, this is a case that will determine if you in fact own or do not own your console and have the right to do with it what you want, that includes smash it with a hammer, throw it in the bathtub, or reverse engineer it. Those are the stakes here.

Sony does seem to be going overboard in its scope, but if the judge allowed it i think it is safe to assume that they showed the judge something that seemed to indicate that something was going on despite his claims, it sure seems like they would have had to to to just allow them to go digging thru all his paypal records.

This case is far more interesting and important tho to be flaming each other over. This case could determine your rights on your wii or xbox or ps3 for decades to come.

I'm glad someone see's the scope of this Sony vs Geohot thing.

Exactly my line of thinking, I am so glad someone came out and said what I was thinking all along. A lot of the people who are rooting for Sony haven't the slightest idea of what they're really supporting when they want Sony to win. It isn't just "punishing a guy for wanting to restore a feature Sony unfairly removed" - and don't give me the bullshit about the "user agreement", because that is nothing more than an escape clause allowing Sony to get away with whatever kinda crap they want. In the end it's all about making money, and perhaps Sony genuinely felt it was too beneficial to pirating.. but guess what guys?

Nintendo tried something similar with the Wii. How many of you remember the 4.2 firmware update that didn't hurt the people who enjoyed Homebrew insomuch as it hurt people who hadn't done anything at all? Yeah, bricked a lot of consoles of innocent bystanders, and that's essentially what Sony did with the PS3 by removing OtherOS and whatever other features are no longer available. Just cause it didn't actually brick the system doesn't mean it didn't render the thing useless to a lot of people who bought it.

You can spout all the nonsense you want about Sony being justified in its actions, but in the end, you're only hurting other users and giving corporations the opportunity to pull the wool out from under its users.

I may not support pirating officially, but I fully support what this guy was doing. There should be nothing wrong with modifying something you fucking bought for your own use. This stuff about not owning the firmware, well we don't own the operating systems for our computers, but plenty of people sure do go around tinkering with them to suit their needs. Without the freedom to experiment with our stuff, we lose the ability to grow and adapt. If we leave this solely in the hands of people who don't care about change and are only interested in making money, we'll never grow.. neither as a society, nor in technological advancement.

..okay that last bit was me going off on a tangent, I apologize. But in the end, my point still stands, and there is nothing anyone can say to me which will change my mind that Sony needs to be slapped down, and companies need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the Information Age where they can learn to adapt/evolve with the times, or die out like the unfortunate dinosaurs... This may not be WMG vs YouTube, but it is in a similar boat that companies just don't know how to survive in today and seem to still think they can just sue everyone for whatever little reason they think of. Them going after the PayPal accounts will still get them information on people who aren't even a party to what was going on, and that itself is wrong on so many levels...

If people want their system to be free, then they have two options then. Buy a computer or, I dunno, WORK WITH THE COMPANIES! Yes I said it, too many people are trying to make this out to be a revolution, a bloody one at best. "Who cares as long as anarchy rises and companies burn!" Yeah, cause that attitude doesn't have serious concequences. If enough people rallied together then the companies would listen, say how about suggesting to Sony or Microsoft that they should allow free use o their firmware to allow user customizing and as along as foul play isn't expected then we can keep it up, this clearly shows that a majority aren't ready for open firmware. Too many people abuse it and now Georgy here helped a number of people with questionable intent. Also, the statement to end all of this, none of this would be happening if he just kept his mouth shut about it and not gone public; many honest homebrewers, who don't hack and pirate, would still be enjoying their free systems. People want consoles to be as open as computers? Then bring suggestions to companies to improve their firmware and if the companies don't support your ideas? Then don't support the companies, they have as much power as we give them. It's as simple as that.

 

[LGC Pominator]

Sony does use some of its profits to fund its legal ventures, but most of the profits go towards the various other stuff they do. Like the upcoming PSP2 and that Spiderman movie reboot.

Soo... more reasons to avoid sony's products like the plague then?

Well if that statement is anything to go by i get to say this.

Unlike you i mostly wait until post-release to form a final opinion on something. Granted, Spidey 3 was horrible compared to its prequels, but that doesnt really mean the reboot is going to make me barf.

Which (somehow) reminds me to say, scince its made by Sony its probably going to be shot in 3D.

And unless Sony fucks up the marketing again i dont see how the PSP2 can fail outright against the 3DS.

I was just kidding to be honest, I really don't have that much of an opinion on the new spiderman movie, Garfield is a rather good actor and it will be interesting to see what he does with the role, however I am not happy with the established continuity just suddenly getting dropped, especially when the third film was ruined almost entirely due to their interference, I loved Maguire in the role and thought Raimi was brilliant, but if Sony think they can do something better with what they are doing now, then it is their choice, they own the label after all.

As for the PSP2, I don't have anything to say really, I actually have owned a PSP and quite enjoyed playing on it, a lot of people hated them, but I thought it was rather fun, I don't have an opinion on the PSP2 yet because I lost interest once I had finished with GTA:VCS.

Sorry if that comment came off as dickish, I simply hoped to garner some laughs on account of the general hatred that the new spiderman, and sony handhelds tend to get around here, I should have probably made it clear that I was joking, as I tend to run into the same thing when people crack jokes about halo or the Xbox to me and I take it seriously... damned autism...

Anyway back on topic.

I have no future sony products I intend to buy, and if I did, I probably wouldn't purchase them until this has blown over, or buy secondhand so they don't actually see a penny of what I spend on it, as I refuse to support them in this.

 

[vikeif]

I know I could get some hate for saying this... but I kinda support Sony...

Playstation 3 was always more open than any other console, but it was hackers that forced "OtherOS" feature to be removed, It was hackers that fucked up MW, MW2 mp experience for a lot of PS3 owners.

I know I know... It's a few guys VS Corporation, but these guys are ruining peoples experience for the device they paid. 99% of the people who bought PS3 don't care if it's not as open platform as PC.

edit: yes this is my first post and no I'm not from Sony ;D

I'd have to agree, sony may be making an example of this kid, but I can't feel sorry for him. People keep hacking into these things for what reason? so they can brag and have sony take more shit away, or so they can add more DCMAs. A lot of people whine about how brutal DCMAs are, but if people would stop hacking this shit, it wouldn't need 13 types of write protection with a finger print scanner.

So no, I hope sony nails this kid to the wall so maybe when I go to get a PS3 it doesn't require a blood test and medical records so I can play a fighting game without using the shitty Xbox D-pad...

This is a violation of some many things. Come on, Paypal accounts, Sony?

Sony is grasping at straws here. Paypal will look at the court order and raise their eyebrow, then turn to the Defendant and say "Do you want access to your account records to be given to Sony?" He'll say "No" and PayPal will just turn around and smile, "Let's just take this to the US Supreme Court."

There is no way in hell that PayPal will authorize this without trying as hard as hell to reverse this. It's such PR, people will be thinking "Well, I shouldn't use PayPal, because then the government will just be able to read what transactions I do online."

Sony Legal team, I award you the Legal Failure of the Month award.

2 things.

1. Paypal isn't a bank and not only CAN they give his records over, they can freeze the account and liquidate the money there in as they feel like it. (read the fine print.) and considering what viacom almost got away with if not for some serious work and petitioning, this is barely anything.

Secondly, legal failure of the month? um... no this isn't even close to a major failure. The failure comes from the idea that if this kid isn't hit as hard as possible for this, we would get MORE shit taken from us by adding DCMAs and lock outs. I wouldn't be surprised is this kid's bullshit doesn't cause the next generation of consoles to come with a remote kill switch that cause the systems to fry it's own motherboard, just to spite us. I'd also rather not support some jerk off that doesn't just one up sony but gives them their own root key back to them. be like e-mailing your own SS and bank pin to you with a big troll face on it.

 

[vikeif]

I have no future sony products I intend to buy, and if I did, I probably wouldn't purchase them until this has blown over, or buy secondhand so they don't actually see a penny of what I spend on it, as I refuse to support them in this.[/quote] yes don't support them because some jaggoff broke royally

Sony does use some of its profits to fund its legal ventures, but most of the profits go towards the various other stuff they do. Like the upcoming PSP2 and that Spiderman movie reboot.

Soo... more reasons to avoid sony's products like the plague then?

Well if that statement is anything to go by i get to say this.

Unlike you i mostly wait until post-release to form a final opinion on something. Granted, Spidey 3 was horrible compared to its prequels, but that doesnt really mean the reboot is going to make me barf.

Which (somehow) reminds me to say, scince its made by Sony its probably going to be shot in 3D.

And unless Sony fucks up the marketing again i dont see how the PSP2 can fail outright against the 3DS.

I was just kidding to be honest, I really don't have that much of an opinion on the new spiderman movie, Garfield is a rather good actor and it will be interesting to see what he does with the role, however I am not happy with the established continuity just suddenly getting dropped, especially when the third film was ruined almost entirely due to their interference, I loved Maguire in the role and thought Raimi was brilliant, but if Sony think they can do something better with what they are doing now, then it is their choice, they own the label after all.

As for the PSP2, I don't have anything to say really, I actually have owned a PSP and quite enjoyed playing on it, a lot of people hated them, but I thought it was rather fun, I don't have an opinion on the PSP2 yet because I lost interest once I had finished with GTA:VCS.

Sorry if that comment came off as dickish, I simply hoped to garner some laughs on account of the general hatred that the new spiderman, and sony handhelds tend to get around here, I should have probably made it clear that I was joking, as I tend to run into the same thing when people crack jokes about halo or the Xbox to me and I take it seriously... damned autism...

Anyway back on topic.

I have no future sony products I intend to buy, and if I did, I probably wouldn't purchase them until this has blown over, or buy secondhand so they don't actually see a penny of what I spend on it, as I refuse to support them in this.

Think about this for a second, your mad at sony for nailing a bragging, subtle-as-a-chainsaw hacker for ripping the root key (which might require turning your already paid for PS3s to bricks to change it.)

Sony owes this brat a trouncing. He started the fight and Sony ain't messing around, piracy is a big issue with the gaming franchise and this kid rubbed his hack in their face. I'm surprised they are not taking it out on all of us. (which they might if they don't feel victorious enough.)

Don't get me wrong, they are making an example out of him, but he also made himself a damn good target for it.

 

[Dys]

I know I could get some hate for saying this... but I kinda support Sony...

Playstation 3 was always more open than any other console, but it was hackers that forced "OtherOS" feature to be removed, It was hackers that fucked up MW, MW2 mp experience for a lot of PS3 owners.

I know I know... It's a few guys VS Corporation, but these guys are ruining peoples experience for the device they paid. 99% of the people who bought PS3 don't care if it's not as open platform as PC.

edit: yes this is my first post and no I'm not from Sony ;D

That is a point one could argue, but Sony being a giant douche isn't limited to the PS3. Sony Erricson Xperia X10 is an android handset they released a little while ago, the "2.1 Eclair update was promised by the company shortly after the X10 was released to the market." Understandably, the customers were pretty pissed. At one point they actually briefly released the update, then recalled it because somebody found an exploit that allowed them root access to their phone (which sony claimed would lead to mass porting of their shell system to other android based devices). Naturally, it was eventually compromised by another method and as of yet nobody has bothered trying to pirate the shell system (they have, however, started using root access programs that don't affect sony in any way, shape or form).

Then there's the whole robot dog thing, where sony sued a guy for reprogramming a robotic dog he bought so that it could do new tricks......

So yes, you are ultimate right to say that some hackers fucked up the multiplayer, but it's not really fair to blame sony's attitude of being an asshole to the little guy who wants to use his system how he wants on hackers...They've been doing it before and separately to hackers who harmed anything. Even if sony and geohot are both wrong[footnote]I don't actually think that[/footnote] the public should be siding with geohot because sony is taking huge lengths to gain records of unrelated financial transactions....what sony is doing is going to have negative repercussions on users everywhere.

Honestly, Sony's just gone completely out of control in this case. There was no reason to subpoena records from paypal. Has Sony said why exactly they're hoping for jurisdiction in California?

I'm not buying any more of sony's stuff though.

I second that notion, I'm not buying anything made by Sony ever again. Not if this is how they're going to use the profits.

What, to protect their intellectual property? Seems like a stupid reason to boycott.

It's the hacker's fault (not just the one mentioned) that Sony removed the other OS option from the PS3. Your inflated sense of indignation is misdirected.

Oh, that's good I thought it had something to do with the fact that playstation 3s are sold at a loss, and various organisations mass buying them to run linux, not games. It's good that sony care consistently hate the rights of the end user, and some bullshit exploit that's going to let some really keen pirates avoid paying for games is definitely reason enough for sony to completely ignore their commitment to their paying customers. It would be stupid to behave in a way to benefit your customers (the overwhelming majority) when you could try and prevent a few dicks (the minority) from maybe copying some games.

I mean, it's not like the insanely high cost of blu-ray discs isn't an effective enough anti piracy measure to stop the average pirate from even trying...it's cheaper to just buy the damn games :\

 

[Xanthious]

I wonder if all these sheeple on the Sony bandwagon would still be waving their pom poms and cheering them on if Sony had removed a feature they use like say the ability to play Blu Ray movies, or multiplayer support over PSN? All Geohot was doing was replacing an advertised feature that Sony decided they could to decide to remove without any consideration.

So far as anyone knows he hasn't pirated any games only replaced a feature Sony removed. He's even come out and spoken against piracy. If Sony had not removed functionality from their console none of this would have ever happened. Now they are all butt hurt that people are trying to remove advertised features that they decided to remove. If Sony wants to blame someone for their console being pirated now they should start by looking in the mirror.

 

[Chubbs99]

EDIT Couldn't this be seen as a move on Sony's party to gain the information of people who donated to fund a case against them? People who have committed no crime and wished to donate anonymously?

I was kinda thinking the same thing. Next we'll see Sony pushing the judge to see Hotz's trash.

And heaven forbid they win their case against him, they'll come after everyone who supported him with legal fee donations for "supporting hacking" and claim they are just as guilty as he is.

As was stated in the OP, Win or Lose this case will have ramifications that will ripple out through the industry. Sony Wins: You can see a lot more cases from a lot more companies claiming that just because they bought their hardware the consumer doesn't own the right to do anything with it.

The most exaggerated example I can think of that I'm sure anyone can relate to is your Car / Truck / Little Red Wagon. If you bought it from Sony, and they win this case you wouldn't be allowed to even do an Oil change unless it was done by Sony or be faced with a multi million dollar law suit.

However, should Sony loose, We might just see future technologies being tinkered with in creative ways much like the Kinect has been, finding innovative ways to use and adapt the original functions of the original device.

As much as I detest hacking for illegal gain, pirating and all the negative that can / will / allegedly has stemmed from the PS3's root key, I am in full support of Hotz on this, because even though I don't own a PS3 or care about Sony and their products. The next case that comes after this one could effect me and the foundation for it will be this case.

 

[Saelune]

Who the fuck is this judge anwyays? Sony is going beyond too far. They are almost lapping themselves at this point. I dont like malicious hackers, but this is ridiculous.