Sony Hit With Class Action Lawsuit Over PSN Breach

[Emergent]

In order for you to meaningfully say that Sony was negligent in their custody of subscriber information, you need to hold all the relevant facts of that matter against the legal standard of negligence. I'll excuse you for knowing the particulars of that legal standard. You're not an attorney or a lawyer.

That isn't entirely accurate, in either spirit or letter. Your personal requirements for a statement to be "meaningful" or not do not, in and of themselves, make a statement meaningful. Nor does a legal standard, since those change over time and in different contexts (jurisdiction is really important as well).

I wouldn't feel too bad about it. This is typical. Lots of folks confuse their subjective opinions with objective axioms.

 

[Venereus]

Cyberpunk: 2
Corporate Apocalypse: 0

 

[PhiMed]

Because the 15 minutes it takes for any smart person to go cut up their card to make sure their identity is not stolen as a result of this, is not worth running a company into the ground, with the reprecussions of their absence in this industry being far worse.

You left your front door unlocked last night. As a result, burglar stole a copy of a game you borrowed from a friend. That friend is now sueing you for your whole fucking house.

Let me fix that.

"You promised a friend you wouldn't lose his game, as it is important to him, in fact you signed a legal contract. You left your front door unlocked last night. As a result, a burglar stole potentially 78 million games you borrowed from 78 million friends. Those friends are now sueing you for your whole fucking house."

I'm far more concerned that this could set legal precedent allowing companies to fuck over their consumers and lose information with no legal repercussions. I didn;t hear people crying about ruining peoples lives when Sony and other big businesses were suing individual people into poverty.

You really think that this little "incident" isn't going to already hit Sony where it hurts? Losing trust in the company will cost them money in sales. Alot of money. A decent chunk of that 78 million you've been throwing around have probably already migrated to the 360 and won't look back. They've been "punished."

But hey! let's file a lawsuit for identity theft!... before ANY cases of identity theft have been reported.
And frankly, now that we all know what's at risk here.... if someone doesn't take steps to prevent things from going from bad to worse... it's their own damn fault. Not Sony's.

Nope it's Sony's.

I agree that it would be better if people had waited for a few cases to show up.

However that doesn;t change the fact that when/if they do Sony is accountable.

Punishment cannot be dictated by the market. Otherwise theres no point of having a judicial system. Punishment=/=justice. In fact all the people who had to move from PS3 to Xbox have lost money as well. If their details are stolen it doesn't help them that Sony is hurting. Sony has to pay for its mistakes properly. You'd expect the same of me.

Actually, under American tort law, punishment is dictated by the market. This is reflected in the concept of "reasonable care." For example, it is entirely possible for automakers to design and produce an automobile that can withstand most collisions without causing fatalities or major injuries. Such an automobile would resemble a Sherman tank or a Brink's armored truck. But tort law does not impose that requirement on automakers. To do so would be economically unreasonable. Such an automobile would cost more than the average consumer of automobiles would be capable of affording. So instead the law requires of automakers a lesser standard of care in the design and production of automobiles, a standard that isn't "100% certain to never cause death or injury" but, rather, one that is merely "reasonable under the circumstances."

Torts law is a great example of why Sony should be held accountable.

It's quite clear that everyone expected Sony to be able to protect their information, and so Sony is obligated to do as such.

Under tort law, the expectations of everyone are worth about as much as a freshly laid pile of steaming dog shit. What matters is whether the steps taken by Sony to safeguard the information were reasonable under the circumstances. That is the duty Sony owed their subscribers. That a subscriber subjectively thinks Sony should have put the information in a little plastic tube and firmly inserted it up their ass for safekeeping, secure from all possible attempts to hack that information, doesn't matter. What matters is whether or not what Sony did to safeguard the information was objectively reasonable under the circumstances.

Sweet! We have an expert on Sony's security measures in the forum! He'll tell us all about it, folks. So they weren't negligent, huh?

http://nobullets.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/tell-me-a-story.jpg

In all seriousness, though, we don't know whether they were negligent.

The people yelling "huzzah" because Sony's getting sued need to calm down. You, who seem to invariably choose the side of the big faceless corporation who doesn't give a shit about you, regardless of the fact that you're just as clueless as the lawsuit cheerleaders, need to calm down.

It's incredibly likely that Sony WAS negligent, because they've demonstrated pretty consistently that the protection of their proprietary information is much more important to them than any sort of customer care or relations. Now, the market should be the main form of "punishment" for Sony, but I've got to disagree with all the people who are trivializing the risk to the PSN user here. They haven't even outright admitted that credit card info was accessed. They have, on the other hand, admitted to a ton of other information that they lost.

This information is much more concerning to me, because it's exactly the type of information a thief could use to set up accounts in a person's name. This is not something that can easily be monitored, because credit reporting agencies don't have anywhere near a 100% percent detection rate. Additionally, "free" credit reporting that "takes 15 minutes" wouldn't detect jack shit. You'd have to enlist a pay service for at least 2 years in order to be completely confident your information wasn't utilized illicitly. Many people might not be aware their identity had been stolen until they... I don't know... applied for a job, mortgage, or life insurance policy, only to find out their credit was inexplicably in the toilet.

This wouldn't take "15 minutes" to fix. It would take months, maybe years, because credit reporting agencies don't care what caused the ding. "Reported incident X" takes "Y amount of time" to go away, even if you have a written retraction from the reporting agency. If they're going to set up a fund for individuals deal with problems like that, that seems perfectly reasonable.

 

[JDKJ]

In order for you to meaningfully say that Sony was negligent in their custody of subscriber information, you need to hold all the relevant facts of that matter against the legal standard of negligence. I'll excuse you for knowing the particulars of that legal standard. You're not an attorney or a lawyer.

That isn't entirely accurate, in either spirit or letter. Your personal requirements for a statement to be "meaningful" or not do not, in and of themselves, make a statement meaningful. Nor does a legal standard, since those change over time and in different contexts (jurisdiction is really important as well).

I wouldn't feel too bad about it. This is typical. Lots of folks confuse their subjective opinions with objective axioms.

Negligence is pretty much a garden variety legal standard. It don't change much from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. You'll be hard-pressed to find a jurisdiction where the standard isn't articulated -- perhaps with minor variations on the theme -- as: (1) duty of care (2) breach (3) proximate cause (4) injury. That's why the Multi-State Bar examiners love to test tort law. Black-letter tort law doesn't change much from state to state.

 

[JDKJ]

Because the 15 minutes it takes for any smart person to go cut up their card to make sure their identity is not stolen as a result of this, is not worth running a company into the ground, with the reprecussions of their absence in this industry being far worse.

You left your front door unlocked last night. As a result, burglar stole a copy of a game you borrowed from a friend. That friend is now sueing you for your whole fucking house.

Let me fix that.

"You promised a friend you wouldn't lose his game, as it is important to him, in fact you signed a legal contract. You left your front door unlocked last night. As a result, a burglar stole potentially 78 million games you borrowed from 78 million friends. Those friends are now sueing you for your whole fucking house."

I'm far more concerned that this could set legal precedent allowing companies to fuck over their consumers and lose information with no legal repercussions. I didn;t hear people crying about ruining peoples lives when Sony and other big businesses were suing individual people into poverty.

You really think that this little "incident" isn't going to already hit Sony where it hurts? Losing trust in the company will cost them money in sales. Alot of money. A decent chunk of that 78 million you've been throwing around have probably already migrated to the 360 and won't look back. They've been "punished."

But hey! let's file a lawsuit for identity theft!... before ANY cases of identity theft have been reported.
And frankly, now that we all know what's at risk here.... if someone doesn't take steps to prevent things from going from bad to worse... it's their own damn fault. Not Sony's.

Nope it's Sony's.

I agree that it would be better if people had waited for a few cases to show up.

However that doesn;t change the fact that when/if they do Sony is accountable.

Punishment cannot be dictated by the market. Otherwise theres no point of having a judicial system. Punishment=/=justice. In fact all the people who had to move from PS3 to Xbox have lost money as well. If their details are stolen it doesn't help them that Sony is hurting. Sony has to pay for its mistakes properly. You'd expect the same of me.

Actually, under American tort law, punishment is dictated by the market. This is reflected in the concept of "reasonable care." For example, it is entirely possible for automakers to design and produce an automobile that can withstand most collisions without causing fatalities or major injuries. Such an automobile would resemble a Sherman tank or a Brink's armored truck. But tort law does not impose that requirement on automakers. To do so would be economically unreasonable. Such an automobile would cost more than the average consumer of automobiles would be capable of affording. So instead the law requires of automakers a lesser standard of care in the design and production of automobiles, a standard that isn't "100% certain to never cause death or injury" but, rather, one that is merely "reasonable under the circumstances."

Torts law is a great example of why Sony should be held accountable.

It's quite clear that everyone expected Sony to be able to protect their information, and so Sony is obligated to do as such.

Under tort law, the expectations of everyone are worth about as much as a freshly laid pile of steaming dog shit. What matters is whether the steps taken by Sony to safeguard the information were reasonable under the circumstances. That is the duty Sony owed their subscribers. That a subscriber subjectively thinks Sony should have put the information in a little plastic tube and firmly inserted it up their ass for safekeeping, secure from all possible attempts to hack that information, doesn't matter. What matters is whether or not what Sony did to safeguard the information was objectively reasonable under the circumstances.

Sweet! We have an expert on Sony's security measures in the forum! He'll tell us all about it, folks. So they weren't negligent, huh?

http://nobullets.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/tell-me-a-story.jpg

In all seriousness, though, we don't know whether they were negligent.

The people yelling "huzzah" because Sony's getting sued need to calm down. You, who seem to invariably choose the side of the big faceless corporation who doesn't give a shit about you, regardless of the fact that you're just as clueless as the lawsuit cheerleaders, need to calm down.

It's incredibly likely that Sony WAS negligent, because they've demonstrated pretty consistently that the protection of their proprietary information is much more important to them than any sort of customer care or relations. Now, the market should be the main form of "punishment" for Sony, but I've got to disagree with all the people who are trivializing the risk to the PSN user here. They haven't even outright admitted that credit card info was accessed. They have, on the other hand, admitted to a ton of other information that they lost.

This information is much more concerning to me, because it's exactly the type of information a thief could use to set up accounts in a person's name. This is not something that can easily be monitored, because credit reporting agencies don't have anywhere near a 100% percent detection rate. Additionally, "free" credit reporting that "takes 15 minutes" wouldn't detect jack shit. You'd have to enlist a pay service for at least 2 years in order to be completely confident your information wasn't utilized illicitly. Many people might not be aware their identity had been stolen until they... I don't know... applied for a job, mortgage, or life insurance policy, only to find out their credit was inexplicably in the toilet.

This wouldn't take "15 minutes" to fix. It would take months, maybe years, because credit reporting agencies don't care what caused the ding. "Reported incident X" takes "Y amount of time" to go away, even if you have a written retraction from the reporting agency. If they're going to set up a fund for individuals deal with problems like that, that seems perfectly reasonable.

Did you hear me say that Sony isn't negligent? Have you any idea how annoying I find that big-ass photo that does nothing to bolster your thoroughly mistaken position that I am saying Sony isn't negligent but which you nevertheless felt compelled to post?

 

[Dirzzit]

So what about people like me who don't have any cards assigned to their PSN accounts? At the moment its only possible that the credit card information has been stolen and they've already come out with this?

Fucking lawyers...

It's not just credit card info, addresses, phone numbers, postal codes. Every speck of stuff you punched in is at risk.

 

[Emergent]

Negligence is pretty mush a garden variety legal standard. It don't change much from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. You'll be hard=pressed to find a jurisdiction where the standard isn't articulated -- perhaps with minor variations on the theme -- as: (1) duty of care (2) breach (3) proximate cause (4) injury. That's why the Multi-State Bar examiners love to test tort law. Black-letter tort law doesn't change much from state to state.

You're missing the point. The point isn't what is, and is not, a legal standard. The point is that the legal system is not what gives things meaning.

Another point might be that not all of those 78 million accounts were held by U.S. citizens, and that SCE is not a U.S.-based company, but I'm sure you weren't just leaving that part out because it's inconvenient.

 

[blind_dead_mcjones]

How will this help the situation?

i know your question is probably rhetorical but i'l answer anyway

it won't, its just just going to slow down both fixing the issue, and finding the people responsible for this whole mess

damn vultures

 

[jackpipsam]

this just keeps on getting better and better

 

[kimba_lion]

I would like to supply the definition of negligence for all the boys and girls to read and understand today just so we all understand where everyone is coming from (and no im not a lawyer, this is just a standard dictionary translation)



1. habitually neglecting duties, responsibilities, etc; lacking attention, care, or concern; neglectful
2. careless or nonchalant



to me Sony has been negligent in the fact that it took them 7 days to inform us that "SHIT JUST HIT THE FAN" sure there are approximately 78 million people on PSN, sure thats alot but the fact is that it TOOk them SOOOOOOOOO damn long to inform us that "hey your life could 'possibly' be fucked for the rest of your life, people put their trust in them with using their credit card details "safely" and yes they were hacked by an outside source , this outside source is going to be soo up shit creek when they are found out, most of the people on here arguing over who knows best will probably be appologizing to sony saying that they are sorry but then continueing to slap them on the wrist the WHOLE DAMN WORLD KNOWS THEY WERE NEGLIGENT TO A POINT,

sure they could have had much better security to protect their customers but, it was not entirely their fault!!!

THE HACKERS ARE DOING WHAT THEY LIKE TO DO BEST!! i mean we hear of really good hackers hacking into programs like WOW, all the time but people dont file lawsuits they realise that " hey shit maybe i should have had a really confusing password so all my Gold wasnt stolen and my character deleted, they learn and move on. Sony should not be so severely punished if nothing has gone missing!

as soon as the hackers are caught then we can scream at the hackers but not sony, they were doing all that they could to protect us BY SHUTTING DOWN PSN WHEN THEY KNEW THEY HAD AN EXTERNAL INTRUSION, THEY STOPPED THE HACKERS BALL FROM ROLLING ASAP!!ALBEIT A BIT TO LATE BUT THE PSN WAS CLOSED FOR ABOUT 4 DAYS BEFORE THEY ANNOUNCED THE INCIDENT. I KNOW THIS FOR FACT BECAUSE I WAS NOT THE ONLY ONE TRYING TO LOG INTO STEAM OVER PSN FOR PORTAL 2, FORUMS WERE ABSOLUTELY FLOODED WITH PEOPLE ASKING "WHATS THIS ERROR CODE MEAN?".

sorry for yelling there but people are just getting a bit overboard with the situation. but untill we have proof that someone no longer exists, then we can NOT throw all the blame at Sony.

im sorry but that is just tooo stupid.

(also im not meaning to make people more upset, im just expressing my opinion as to the whole thing, as are all the rest of you.)

 

[Weaver]

I still don't get why the database wasn't encrypted.
That's like information security 101.

 

[GonzoGamer]

Am I the only one that's a little pissed that somehow I'm included in all this?

Look, I don't give a shit about lawsuits or any of the other speculative bullshit I've been reading for the past few days right now. I just want to know if I need to change my credit card or not, who did it, and when is this all gonna be fixed!

Definitely don't change your card (why put another in danger) and I wouldn't even bother canceling the one you use.
What I would do is call your credit card company and see if they can sign you up to a credit monitoring service if you aren't already. It usually costs a little less than $10 a month and from this it looks like you might be able to get Sony to pay for it... eventually. And if you're already signed onto something like that with another card, that plan probably covers your other cards.

The problem with this isn't so much the credit card (you're insured for that: I wouldn't even worry about the card specifically) but the personal info (name, address, email, and password/security questions if you use the same password/SQ for many things) which can be used to take out credit cards you don't even know about or loans.

Just make sure that you never use your Debit card for things like this and you should be okay. Credit card balances are always insured. The cash in your bank account isn't always insured... even if your bank assures you that it is.

Once again, this advise comes from Frank Abagnale (Catch me if you Can) and that guy is a genius when it comes to this stuff.

I'm with the Commonwealth bank and it actually had a news bulliten about it, which when clicked on said:

"With the recent compromise of data through the "Sony Playstation Network" there is currently no requirement for you to stop or replace your credit or debit card. Our existing fraud security measures are in place and we will notify you if we detect unusual transactions on your account. To deter fraudulent activity on your account we recommend that you have a unique NetBank password. If you wish to change your password in NetBank, go to the Security tab and click on My password."

As I already have a unique netbank password (and a token as a 2ndary measure) my system is covered, however i agree that everyone should check with their bank/credit card issuers as to what systems they have in place to deal with the 'crisis'.

IF YOU GET AN EMAIL LIKE THAT DO NOT CLICK THE LINK!
Sorry to do the all caps thing but I can not stress that more. If a bank or Sony or anything that could be involved in this by extension, sends you an email with a new password or asking you to click a link for your new password, do not click the link and try not to even open it. That could just make things worse. Call your bank (or whatever the source of the email was) and confirm with them before opening.
And once again: try not to use your debit card for this kind of stuff. A regular credit card should be good enough.
I may sound a little paranoid but it could be the difference between you not getting robbed and you getting robbed... or worse.

 

[spartan773]

Wow the problems are really starting to pile up for Sony, I wonder how long it will take before I start feeling sorry for them.

well i already do.

 

[Secret world leader (shhh)]

Just make everything on the PS store free for a month for fucks sake. Like someone said above, "why am I being represented?" what if I don't want to sue sony?

 

[RicoADF]

Am I the only one that's a little pissed that somehow I'm included in all this?

Look, I don't give a shit about lawsuits or any of the other speculative bullshit I've been reading for the past few days right now. I just want to know if I need to change my credit card or not, who did it, and when is this all gonna be fixed!

Definitely don't change your card (why put another in danger) and I wouldn't even bother canceling the one you use.
What I would do is call your credit card company and see if they can sign you up to a credit monitoring service if you aren't already. It usually costs a little less than $10 a month and from this it looks like you might be able to get Sony to pay for it... eventually. And if you're already signed onto something like that with another card, that plan probably covers your other cards.

The problem with this isn't so much the credit card (you're insured for that: I wouldn't even worry about the card specifically) but the personal info (name, address, email, and password/security questions if you use the same password/SQ for many things) which can be used to take out credit cards you don't even know about or loans.

Just make sure that you never use your Debit card for things like this and you should be okay. Credit card balances are always insured. The cash in your bank account isn't always insured... even if your bank assures you that it is.

Once again, this advise comes from Frank Abagnale (Catch me if you Can) and that guy is a genius when it comes to this stuff.

I'm with the Commonwealth bank and it actually had a news bulliten about it, which when clicked on said:

"With the recent compromise of data through the "Sony Playstation Network" there is currently no requirement for you to stop or replace your credit or debit card. Our existing fraud security measures are in place and we will notify you if we detect unusual transactions on your account. To deter fraudulent activity on your account we recommend that you have a unique NetBank password. If you wish to change your password in NetBank, go to the Security tab and click on My password."

As I already have a unique netbank password (and a token as a 2ndary measure) my system is covered, however i agree that everyone should check with their bank/credit card issuers as to what systems they have in place to deal with the 'crisis'.

IF YOU GET AN EMAIL LIKE THAT DO NOT CLICK THE LINK!
Sorry to do the all caps thing but I can not stress that more. If a bank or Sony or anything that could be involved in this by extension, sends you an email with a new password or asking you to click a link for your new password, do not click the link and try not to even open it. That could just make things worse. Call your bank (or whatever the source of the email was) and confirm with them before opening.
And once again: try not to use your debit card for this kind of stuff. A regular credit card should be good enough.
I may sound a little paranoid but it could be the difference between you not getting robbed and you getting robbed... or worse.

I'm not stupid, that was a msg on the bank's website when I logged in. And I changed the password while logged into the bank, no email was involved.

 

[GonzoGamer]

Am I the only one that's a little pissed that somehow I'm included in all this?

Look, I don't give a shit about lawsuits or any of the other speculative bullshit I've been reading for the past few days right now. I just want to know if I need to change my credit card or not, who did it, and when is this all gonna be fixed!

Definitely don't change your card (why put another in danger) and I wouldn't even bother canceling the one you use.
What I would do is call your credit card company and see if they can sign you up to a credit monitoring service if you aren't already. It usually costs a little less than $10 a month and from this it looks like you might be able to get Sony to pay for it... eventually. And if you're already signed onto something like that with another card, that plan probably covers your other cards.

The problem with this isn't so much the credit card (you're insured for that: I wouldn't even worry about the card specifically) but the personal info (name, address, email, and password/security questions if you use the same password/SQ for many things) which can be used to take out credit cards you don't even know about or loans.

Just make sure that you never use your Debit card for things like this and you should be okay. Credit card balances are always insured. The cash in your bank account isn't always insured... even if your bank assures you that it is.

Once again, this advise comes from Frank Abagnale (Catch me if you Can) and that guy is a genius when it comes to this stuff.

I'm with the Commonwealth bank and it actually had a news bulliten about it, which when clicked on said:

"With the recent compromise of data through the "Sony Playstation Network" there is currently no requirement for you to stop or replace your credit or debit card. Our existing fraud security measures are in place and we will notify you if we detect unusual transactions on your account. To deter fraudulent activity on your account we recommend that you have a unique NetBank password. If you wish to change your password in NetBank, go to the Security tab and click on My password."

As I already have a unique netbank password (and a token as a 2ndary measure) my system is covered, however i agree that everyone should check with their bank/credit card issuers as to what systems they have in place to deal with the 'crisis'.

IF YOU GET AN EMAIL LIKE THAT DO NOT CLICK THE LINK!
Sorry to do the all caps thing but I can not stress that more. If a bank or Sony or anything that could be involved in this by extension, sends you an email with a new password or asking you to click a link for your new password, do not click the link and try not to even open it. That could just make things worse. Call your bank (or whatever the source of the email was) and confirm with them before opening.
And once again: try not to use your debit card for this kind of stuff. A regular credit card should be good enough.
I may sound a little paranoid but it could be the difference between you not getting robbed and you getting robbed... or worse.

I'm not stupid, that was a msg on the bank's website when I logged in. And I changed the password while logged into the bank, no email was involved.

I didn't say you were. Some people just don't think about this stuff.
I just want to make sure everyone knows the basics.
This is a lot more important than the latest pre-order scheme for some game nobody is going to remember a year from now. This shit can affect your life for years to come.

 

[pha kin su pah]

this isn't going to help with the situation at all, not to mention why didn't this law firm approach all the other 79999999 users and ask to represent these people? if they win wheres the money goin eh?

Nothing but a bunch of Ambulance Chasers, utterly pathetic.

 

[technoted]

What I really like about this is half the people who are raging are people who don't even own a PS3 or PSP. Personally I spend a lot fo time on my PS3 online and I know it's got a hell of a lot of my details on there but what's the point in whining and suing Sony? It's not their fault, if hackers want into something they will do it with ease, look at when Anon took down Mastercard, I'm pretty sure if they wanted to take peoples details they could have quite easily. It's not like Sony didn't have a lot of security in place and I mean it's not like they did something stupid like the British Governement and left it all in a taxi, did anyone sue the governemt? Nope, then again the huge sue craze does seem to come largely from America, suing McDonalds because you're fat, suing a man because you cut your hand on his window braking into his house, it's no different to suing Sony for being hacked...