Sony, Panasonic Reveal "Archival Disc," 300GB to 1TB Optical Disc

Lightknight

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Nov 26, 2008
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Strazdas said:
Avatar was a bad movie to choose altrough i know why you did it.
It was actually the only digital blu ray movie I'd purchased and downloaded so that I knew how large the file was. I figured it was a longish movie and fairly popular so I could rely on it. But apparently not.

The truth of the matter is, even blu-ray compressed video takes on average 22GB of space per 2 hour movie. The way up is twofold: as you mentioned we can go 4K, which means we will need 4 times the pixels and thus 4 times the filesize, and we can also go for better quality with less compression (like how DVDs were horribly compressed early on and got better later due to different codec). That also takes more space, altrough how much is up to how much is compressed and how good the alogorythm is. Lets just say that 1 minute of completely uncompressed (full frame, basically bitmap) 1080p video already takes up to 5 GB.
Interesting. I did some research and it looks like you are correct. I wonder what the odds are of us going through a significant upscaling phase between 1080p and 4k?
 

Strazdas

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May 28, 2011
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Lightknight said:
I wonder what the odds are of us going through a significant upscaling phase between 1080p and 4k?
Judging by increasing popularity of 1440p monitor/tv sales id say there is the "middle ground" to conquel between the two which will smooth the transition a but.

We are already doing significant upscaling just to keep up with technology thats been around in the 90s (seriously, 1200p was normal in the 90s on kinescopic monitors, then LCDs came and ran it into the ground for almost two decades, partly due to their price cartel agreement). and now even the "latest hardware" consoles need to uspcale to even reach 1080p.

Then again, its not like we lack hardware. I have modded my oblivion to look better than titanfall looks (and thats a 8 year difference in release dates), and it runs at 1080p supersampling to 4k (which means im downscaling, the most resource demanding and effective antialiasing) and im running at 120p. and i dont have the latest most powerful card either, merely a card thats been around for over a year - 760. Its not like we cant do 4k now. Its just that somone seems to not want it done.
 

Lightknight

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Nov 26, 2008
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Strazdas said:
Lightknight said:
I wonder what the odds are of us going through a significant upscaling phase between 1080p and 4k?
Judging by increasing popularity of 1440p monitor/tv sales id say there is the "middle ground" to conquel between the two which will smooth the transition a but.
Hmm, I didn't even know 1440p tv's existed. I knew 4k TVs did but not 1440p. Let's hope they're more popular than my own personal experience would indicate.

Since a 50" TV doesn't even express the full benefit of 1080p until you're 6.5 feet away most people don't get the full benefit of it. SO then 1440 and 4000 become meaningless unless your TV is a monster (not that I haven't considered going the projector route) or if you're 5 feet away from the screen. Try actually measuring out five feet if you're not sure how far you set away from your TV. It's extremely close, especially for larger screens.

I do wonder though, at what point is it simply going to be good enough? From that famous chart on the benefits of different resolutions I will never actually need better than 1080p for my TV. Monitor? Sure. Phone? Maybe 1440p but if I'm going to be honest I've never really cared about the difference between 1080p and higher resolutions. I've seen giant-ass TV screens with that 4k resolution but it doesn't really add to my enjoyment of a game or movie in any significant way.

Then again, its not like we lack hardware. I have modded my oblivion to look better than titanfall looks (and thats a 8 year difference in release dates), and it runs at 1080p supersampling to 4k (which means im downscaling, the most resource demanding and effective antialiasing) and im running at 120p. and i dont have the latest most powerful card either, merely a card thats been around for over a year - 760. Its not like we cant do 4k now. Its just that somone seems to not want it done.
Bethesda games are interesting. They've got to be the most modded games on the planet. I just recently saw Morrowind in its most modded state and I'm impressed. I mean, they've clearly reached the end without creating new assets (like that team is doing), but it's amazing how much skill people put into those games.

Oblivion is a 9 year old game though. Your PC components could be decent from 5 years ago and still do everything with Oblivion on the highest settings. Skyrim would be a different story though.
 

Strazdas

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Lightknight said:
they are a sort of "new" thing that is getting traction as that "more than 1080p" thing, altrough admittedly it severely lacks content to truly be the dominant species. The highest quality video we get to see legally is 1080p unless its computer footage (technically on youtube you can have more, but i only saw games go above 1080p there). Its not that there isnt any. for example refurbishing movies now actually do 4k scans of the film and then downsize it to 1080p for the blue rays. so they have the 4k versions, its jut that you cant buy one. Hopefully internet eventually solve the problem of "4k doesnt fit on a disc" and we get acess to that.

Actually, at 50" display its almost 3 meters where the difference isnt visible for "Average" person. note that some people actually have good eyesight and can tell the difference.

And i would be hard pressed to find anyone in my surounding that watch TV that far. well, perhaps the main tv my parents have, but then it is almost 2 meters in diameter so longer distance makes sense. Personally even 4k would be "Worth it" for my monitor at home, so i dont see a problem with distances here.

Its never going to be enough. higher resolutions have benefits even beyond those of visible pixels. such as true antialiasing which would otherwise be very resource intensive (and not FXAA and other similar blur effects arent antialiasing)

No, you missed the poiont. A moded oblivion runs at higher resolution, framerate AND looks better than the new "killer app". We have the hardware to run them there, and its not expensive one either. Its just that for some reason people just want to use prprietary overpriced crap and then shout like its "the one" best. Sure you may not care about shitty graphics or limited gameplay, thats your choice, dont go strutting like you got the best though.

As far as your enjoyment. You not caring does not mean it doesnt matter. Just like me not caring about my cars horsepower does not mean it suddenly stops being a factor in how it drives.
 

Andrew_C

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Mr.K. said:
Sure... except optical drives are the least reliable data mediums since floppy and still very expensive, also I can only imagine Sony will twist everyone's balls with licensing if they want to use it, none of which would make me replace the extremely cheap and far more reliable magnetic tapes any time soon.
I was just going to post this. Magnetic tape is still the best backup medium by a huge margin. Although the tape companies seem to slowly be dying off, so I guess backup to HDD's will replace it fully. Maybe flash drives will finally become large, stable and cheap enough to be used for backup. But optical disc will never be a serious backup medium.
 

Lightknight

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Strazdas said:
Actually, at 50" display its almost 3 meters where the difference isnt visible for "Average" person. note that some people actually have good eyesight and can tell the difference.
And i would be hard pressed to find anyone in my surounding that watch TV that far. well, perhaps the main tv my parents have, but then it is almost 2 meters in diameter so longer distance makes sense. Personally even 4k would be "Worth it" for my monitor at home, so i dont see a problem with distances here.
This rendition of the chart is actually a little misleading in the way they've labled the areas. The top line of each cone is where the difference starts to become noticeable but is the least "worth it" with the bottom line being where the difference is most noticeable compared to the previous resolution. So it's actually 3 meters where the difference even starts to be noticeable for anything over 1080p but that doesn't necessarily mean it is "worth it" if the difference is a matter of inches. If you sit at 5' from the TV, sure.

My TV is 1080p and something like 52 inches. Now, If I were to be honest, I sit almost 10 feet away. I am just barely in the "it makes a difference" category. You've got to try this. Try actually measuring out the two meters. It is NOT as far as you really think. I have a good gauge of this because I know the dimensions of my office which is something like 7 by 9 and I could not fit my TV in here at a distance from where I watch it at home.

If you have a ruler or have feet that are about 12 inches long, measure it out heel to toe And look at how close you are to the TV. I doubt you're within 2 meters. 2 meters is shorter than people think. It's just over 6 feet and that's only going to happen in a really cramped environment.

Its never going to be enough. higher resolutions have benefits even beyond those of visible pixels. such as true antialiasing which would otherwise be very resource intensive (and not FXAA and other similar blur effects arent antialiasing)
All it has to do is reach a point where we no longer notice the difference from any reasonable distance. I do wonder about devices like the occulus rift where they are inches from your face but also very small like a 3 or 4 inch screen.

No, you missed the poiont. A moded oblivion runs at higher resolution, framerate AND looks better than the new "killer app".
It looks better than a modded Skyrim? I do doubt your claim as I find it extremely hard to believe. I've looked through several videos on the matter and the difference is still quite apparent. Modding has made a huge difference from the vanilla version in what I see, but the assets are still 9 year old assets with a fresh coat of paint.

As far as your enjoyment. You not caring does not mean it doesnt matter. Just like me not caring about my cars horsepower does not mean it suddenly stops being a factor in how it drives.
Not sure how me saying it doesn't really impact the enjoyment of the game means I don't care. It's nice, it's just not as important as say, good writing and gameplay mechanices. I don't really enjoy a good game any less on an old standard TV than I do on a 1080p. But it does make scenery shots more enjoyable.
 

Strazdas

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Lightknight said:
This rendition of the chart is actually a little misleading in the way they've labled the areas. The top line of each cone is where the difference starts to become noticeable but is the least "worth it" with the bottom line being where the difference is most noticeable compared to the previous resolution. So it's actually 3 meters where the difference even starts to be noticeable for anything over 1080p but that doesn't necessarily mean it is "worth it" if the difference is a matter of inches. If you sit at 5' from the TV, sure.

My TV is 1080p and something like 52 inches. Now, If I were to be honest, I sit almost 10 feet away. I am just barely in the "it makes a difference" category. You've got to try this. Try actually measuring out the two meters. It is NOT as far as you really think. I have a good gauge of this because I know the dimensions of my office which is something like 7 by 9 and I could not fit my TV in here at a distance from where I watch it at home.

If you have a ruler or have feet that are about 12 inches long, measure it out heel to toe And look at how close you are to the TV. I doubt you're within 2 meters. 2 meters is shorter than people think. It's just over 6 feet and that's only going to happen in a really cramped environment.
I picked a chart that has both feet and meters in it so people using both systems can read it. Most have one or the other.

Yes, 3 meters is the line where its the least noticable, hence my comment about it being "more than 3 meters to stop noticing".


Personally i have measured it before. I sit at 1.5 meters from my TV, which admittedly is small enough that UHD would not be worth it and something like 1440p would be the barely there. Though admittedly i sometimes stand firther away from it as i use it mostly when im cooking food or if im not alone.

I sit at less than 1 meter from my monitor, which is where i do most of my watching (i watch movies and play games exclusively on PC. TV is just that - for television programs). My monitor is 27", which means UHD would be worth it, although currently im only using 1080p.
Not everyone has mansions and rooms for TV. One thing to note is that Americans (and thats not only US but the other american nations too) actually lead in size-per-inhabitant in housing. Rest of the world actually live in smaller houses.

All it has to do is reach a point where we no longer notice the difference from any reasonable distance. I do wonder about devices like the occulus rift where they are inches from your face but also very small like a 3 or 4 inch screen.
See, what i meant by that is that noticing pixels is not enough. Thats because of how antialiasing works. The "true" antialiasing (as opposed to blur to hide edgies) is actually generating the video in higher resolution and then downsampling it. So you are for example generating a 2160p video and then resizing it to 1080p. however, if you had a 2160p monitor and just put that image in there it would look better even if you are far away that 1080p would be the limit. This is because then the pixels would be more precise even if you wouldnt see it, thus the "Smearing" when resizing down would not occur and your eyes would be doing the limiting, which to people with good eyesight (example: dont need glasses) will be a difference. Not a huge one, granted, but at that point companies will be competing for that as everyone will be doing the standard stuff.

It looks better than a modded Skyrim? I do doubt your claim as I find it extremely hard to believe. I've looked through several videos on the matter and the difference is still quite apparent. Modding has made a huge difference from the vanilla version in what I see, but the assets are still 9 year old assets with a fresh coat of paint.
I never said this. I said that it looks better than Titanfall. Moders have remodeled and resambled the "normal mapping". The engine is 9 years old, but the models are new, at least some of them.
Also what videos you saw? Because im sure you are aware that Youtube quality of video is quite poor because they compress it heavily since they need to save space on servers.

Not sure how me saying it doesn't really impact the enjoyment of the game means I don't care. It's nice, it's just not as important as say, good writing and gameplay mechanices. I don't really enjoy a good game any less on an old standard TV than I do on a 1080p. But it does make scenery shots more enjoyable.
Im confused. you say it does not make it any less enjoyable and then you say it makes it more enjoyable. Which one is it?
Also even if you personally did not care about it, does not mean it stops existing. Others may care. You may care in the future (opinions change)