Sony, Pre-owned games and DRM

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RThaiRThai

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Jan 13, 2010
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little.09 said:
it would destroy the mediums especially music because most people would have to find other jobs to support their families. Copy write is the only thing that allows content creators to make their content because without copy write where would the incentive be to pay for a song or a story. the only reason writers and musicians made money before copy write is because it wasn't able to be reproduced as easily as it is today.


so copy write = good
I *used* to believe that this is the case. I no longer believe it. This is long, so I don't necessarily expect you to listen to it, but take a look if you're interested.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNBMdDaYhZA

This article is longer than a typical internet article, but maybe it would be preferable to you over the video. They don't same the same things, but it's similar.
http://questioncopyright.org/promise

Most musicians don't make very much money today off of selling CDs; the record companies tend to get all the money except for cases in which the artist does exceptionally well. Money would come more from touring.

Writers are in a similar position. The video mentions a get together of writers discussing copyright law, and if I remember, the video's speaker proposed that copyright should only last 10 years. The writer said that anything more than 5 years would be horrible. The writer was pretty sure that the publisher has stopped distrubiting his book, but was prevented by the publisher from distributing it on his own because the publisher holds the copyright. If a writer wants their work published, they have to hand their copyright over to the publisher.

Personally, I don't know if I would change my view on something so fundamental to our society after hearing someone on an internet forum disagree with me; I'd probably have to find out on my own like I did. But it would be cool if these videos completely changed your view. *I'd* feel good.

Like I said, video games aren't really addressed in either source, and I'm not sure how well video games would do. I also *do* have more sources. It's not just 2 people saying this; it's a whole movement.
 

Dalek Caan

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Feb 12, 2011
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For beginner gamers I think they are essential, so they have a steady income to buy new games. I am all in favor of them. They can be a positive to devs as well. Trade in two or three games and buy a new game. Whats so bad about that?
 

Arehexes

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Timmibal said:
Crono1973 said:
If you think publishers are entitled to money from used sales then you are not informed.
I don't think anyone with half a brain expects that. The problem is, and the point that most of the anti-resale argument that most people seem to miss, is that there should not be a 'used games market' as it exists currently in the first place.

You sell your old games on e-bay or at a garage sale, publishers/developers have never been interested in that. Why? Because most of the time the games are exactly that. Old. You are not competing with their current releases, and I'm sure they're grateful that their older products are still getting some love.

That's not what retailers are doing though. Look at the promotions they have, look at their 'preferred trade' lists. All of those titles are either brand new AAA releases, or titles that are in high demand. The retailer is, in effect, competing with the publisher for the same sales and using the publisher's IP to do so! Not only that, but I recall figures stating that the average resold title is re-traded an average of 4.5 times. (sorry, no source, will try and find it later)

They can't fight resale directly, because whenever they do, the trumps of flatulence sound with resounding cries of 'Physical Medium!' and 'Consumer Rights!' and 'Sale not license!' which the retailers gleefuly use to keep earning their unearned profits.

So, devs/publishers are forced to resort to things like day 1 DLC and campaigns like project $10, as well as keeping prices high, in order to try and recoup the haemmoraging of their profits in the console market due to corporate resale.

Also, don't compare a unique medium like video games with other media like movies, books, and music. That dog just don't hunt.
One don't say "I recall figures" if you have NO PROOF BEHIND IT. Two selling used games is as old as I've been renting video games in '95. Three and this one gets me the most VIDEO GAMES SHOULD BE TREATED LIKE OTHER MEDIUMS. This is why people think we can pass special laws on Video Games only and not movies (I don't see people making a push to restrict rated R movies like they are trying to with M rated games with all these laws). We can buy books used, movies used, cars used, almost anything we want used. WHY IS IT VIDEO GAMES ARE ANY DIFFERENT? Explain that, because I always see people say "Oh don't lump my video games with movies they are not the same" when they are. Why is it I can sell a stack of movies on ebay but it's not as ok to sell my video games? Don't you think movie makers spend a lot of money to make those over the top and awesome movies we all love? Oh but oh lord they must not matter, what about reselling books, I can go to barnesandnoble.com or amazon and buy used books no problem, and what about music I can buy that used. You are treating video games like the makers are on a high place then other makers of different mediums.

You say there shouldn't be a "used game market" but there has been one for two decades, either it be renting games or buying them used IT IS LEGAL IN THE US. It's just now that we have the digital age tracking what people do devs can use new tricks to make us follow there rules they want to impose.

I can't take what you said with any salt to be honest, because say games are different from movies/music and say we don't get it yet don't bother to explain it.
 

Chibz

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OutrageousEmu said:
Basically, you need permission to resell it, you don't ever tart with that permission.
Wait. What. WHAT? You're joking, right? What's the law against reselling games now?

Dealing heroin (trafficking a controlled substance) and running someone over with my car (vehicular manslaughter) are... well crimes that actually exist and you can be punished for. Please cite what law I'd be breaking by selling a game to someone second-hand. Until then, I'll... I'll just BRB.

*Walks out room, a loud, repetitive banging noise is heard*
 

CM156_v1legacy

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Mar 23, 2011
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OutrageousEmu said:
Chibz said:
OutrageousEmu said:
"all unauthorised access, use or transfer of this product or its underlying copyright and trademark works is prohibited".

"RESALE AND RENTAL ARE STRICTLY PROHIBITED UNLESS EXPRESSLY AUTHORISED BY (SCEE)"
You realize that neither of those statements in the manual would have any legal weight right? Mostly because...

1. The user (you) never explicitly agreed to it. At all.
2. It's tacked on (almost sneaked in) after the sale & agreement is finalized.
3. Legally binding agreements don't work this way at all.

It wouldn't fly in court, unless your local laws are even more ungodly than the US'
Oh, yeah, try and convince a judge that just cause you don't sign anything that doesn't make it completely legally binding. Tell him you never signed an agreement to not run people over or deal heroin, so you can get off free for doing that.

Not reselling the game isn't some sort of deal made on a case by case basis, its a law for all of them. Basically, you need permission to resell it, you don't ever tart with that permission.

Its up front, and its your responsibility to be aware. Your ignorance is no excuse.
Hyperbole much? Those things are illegal because they deprive a person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law.

Also, I would you please look up a "unconscionable contract" for me? I can't sell you a book, and inculde a little thing in the side of it saying "Buy buying this book, you agree to give me $50 if you lend this book to anyone". It breaks the FSD, first of all. And second, the agreement is one sided and you didn't give the person a chance to say no until AFTER they got it.

And further, do I need "permission" to resell a car? Do I need "permission" to resell a DVD? Do I need "permission" to resell my computer? No.

We just won a court case saying we get the same First Amendment protection that other media has. So why should we sudendly say "Wait! Treat us different than movies, TV, and books!".
 

Arehexes

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OutrageousEmu said:
CM156 said:
OutrageousEmu said:
Chibz said:
OutrageousEmu said:
"all unauthorised access, use or transfer of this product or its underlying copyright and trademark works is prohibited".

"RESALE AND RENTAL ARE STRICTLY PROHIBITED UNLESS EXPRESSLY AUTHORISED BY (SCEE)"
You realize that neither of those statements in the manual would have any legal weight right? Mostly because...

1. The user (you) never explicitly agreed to it. At all.
2. It's tacked on (almost sneaked in) after the sale & agreement is finalized.
3. Legally binding agreements don't work this way at all.

It wouldn't fly in court, unless your local laws are even more ungodly than the US'
Oh, yeah, try and convince a judge that just cause you don't sign anything that doesn't make it completely legally binding. Tell him you never signed an agreement to not run people over or deal heroin, so you can get off free for doing that.

Not reselling the game isn't some sort of deal made on a case by case basis, its a law for all of them. Basically, you need permission to resell it, you don't ever tart with that permission.

Its up front, and its your responsibility to be aware. Your ignorance is no excuse.
Hyperbole much? Those things are illegal because they deprive a person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law.

Also, I would you please look up a "unconscionable contract" for me? I can't sell you a book, and inculde a little thing in the side of it saying "Buy buying this book, you agree to give me $50 if you lend this book to anyone". It breaks the FSD, first of all. And second, the agreement is one sided and you didn't give the person a chance to say no until AFTER they got it.

And further, do I need "permission" to resell a car? Do I need "permission" to resell a DVD? Do I need "permission" to resell my computer? No.

We just won a court case saying we get the same First Amendment protection that other media has. So why should we suddenly say "Wait! Treat us different than movies, TV, and books!".
We don't. In the slightest. Try and give away an old tape of a baseball game and see how legally protected you are then. There's a licensing agreement of usage of content between producers and consumers in entertainment. The producers are fully free to lay out the exact defined proper usages of all their content, while the consumer has the right to reject these defined usages, and reject the product. But it is the consumers responsibility in all cases to actually check what the proper usage is. Buying the game is entering into the agreement - you can read the agreement and return the game, but if you keep it, you are expected to know whats admissible use.

You ever bothered to read one of those FBI warnings that come before a movie?
Yeah...you don't really think do ya

One:You mention a tape of a baseball game, if I remember right your not even suppose to record a tape of a baseball game so how can you give said tape away (wouldn't that be more akin to piracy).

Two:Yeah I read those FBI warnings and it's mostly if not completely referring to making copies and giving them away or showing them off too a set of people



And before you say "well what about the distribution part" let me say this. Go into a blockbuster and look around, you will see pre owned movies for sell, and they have been around for years so it must be legal to sell used movies not copy them.
 

Xandre

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While I may not have read all of the replies, I think I can speak for most gamers when I say, used games wouldn't be such a problem if the games had, what was that term now... Ah, yes! Lasting Appeal.

For example; Lost Planet 2. Bought new, got bored, traded in and got a copy of San Andreas on the PC instead. Now, I dunno about you, but I buy used because they play as well as, or in some cases better than the newer games, and I can ask people if the damn game is any good.

That being said, why should I pay more for GTA IV when San Andreas is almost universally regarded, so far as I can tell, as the better game? The problem, to me, isn't used sales, it's the devs settling on mediocrety, on safety, on what works and not trying to make the kind of game that you'll want to keep for years to come. Case in point? I still have my original copy of Gran Turismo, and I still play it, albeit via emulator nowadays, because I don't trust the PS3 to not wreck it and the PS2 won't read the disc anymore, while my PS1 kicked the bucket a while ago.

That, to me, is lasting appeal. A game I still play as often as I play its full-HD successor, and while what constitutes lasting appeal may differ between gamers, perhaps the fact that my local game shop still has Modern Warfare 2 used priced higher than Black Ops used, with the former harder to find than the latter used should say something about the lasting appeal of those games, if only to supply an example of "lasting appeal"

I say to the devs, don't waste assloads of money trying to secure more first-hand sales through low moves such as one-time codes. If the game was good enough to be kept off a gamer's trade-in list for some time then that's the mark of a good game, so give yourselves a pat on the back and repeat. It's simple; you don't need a one time code or lots of DLC if the game is good enough that the code will only be needed once, that is if the game grows enough on someone for he or she to not want to trade it in for some other game.

I say, don't give us more of the same every time, but I'm not saying constant revolutions to the genre, I'm just suggesting the money and resources spent on the crap Sony and a lot of devs are pulling nowadays would be better spent making a game that is going to stay on a gamer's shelf for years to come, and not for poor trade-in value, but for the fact that the guy who bought it is going to enjoy the game for years to come, no matter how far technology marches on

Lemme put it another way. I usually play a certain brand spanking new console game a few hours a week. I completed Ace Combat: Squadron Leader in a day, then went right back through the campaign because the story was that god-damn well written. I've clocked more hours on that old PS2 game than I clocked on H.A.W.X. and its sequel combined, and that wasn't because of the graphics, it was because the game was nearly flawless in its execution and it had an incredibly well-written story, to the point that I actually gave a damn when Alvin H. Davenport crashed his plane into the stadium because he waited for the evacuation to complete so that there would be no civilian casualties, despite probably losing the ability to bail out in the process of doing so.

Now, in HAWX 2, when your squad leader and one of your squad mates get nuked by way of orbital laser, I was long the lines of "Meh". I traded in HAWX because it wasn't good enough to net a place on the long-term shelf. I still have that old Ace Combat, and all the PS1/2 ace combats on that shelf because they're games that were good enough to make me want to keep them for years.
 

Asuka Soryu

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OutrageousEmu said:
Asuka Soryu said:
OutrageousEmu said:
Asuka Soryu said:
I sometimes buy used, but I mostly buy cheap. xD 20$ still sealed games at Walmart, they're just old is all.


But I couldn't resist buying Dragon Ball Z Burst Limit for 3$ used.

I agree with people buying used. 60$ is alot of money to go into a game that could be really bad or way to short.

60$ for a 4 hour game!?
As opposed to $60 for a 10 minute game?
Nah, 3000$ for an 8 minute game.
You are aware I was describing an actual game, right?
1: No, I was not. Such an absurd thing shouldn't be assumed that you can mention it and think no one will think you're messing around.

2: When you beat it, does it come up with a message: "haha, thanks for the money. Have a nice day, suckers!!"? Or anything simmular.
 

Chibz

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OutrageousEmu said:
No, it didn't. It happened during the NES so it wasn't that far out of the ordinary. People didn't ever call bullshit on it - hell, some people defend it.
*Drunkenly staggers back in, her forehead bleeding profusely*

Sorry, but most games in the NES era are... significantly longer than 8 minutes. What game are you talking about?

OT: The slow degradation of my basic consumer rights, and the willingness of others to simply surrender their own makes me question how much longer I will buy video games new. I see a future on the horizon where I only buy "classic" games used.
 

Arehexes

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OutrageousEmu said:
Chibz said:
OutrageousEmu said:
No, it didn't. It happened during the NES so it wasn't that far out of the ordinary. People didn't ever call bullshit on it - hell, some people defend it.
*Drunkenly staggers back in, her forehead bleeding profusely*

Sorry, but most games in the NES era are... significantly longer than 8 minutes. What game are you talking about?

OT: The slow degradation of my basic consumer rights, and the willingness of others to simply surrender their own makes me question how much longer I will buy video games new. I see a future on the horizon where I only buy "classic" games used.
Boy and his Blob.

Its not that signifigant a difference. Most NES are about two hours. THat you think "only" getting 5 hours and multiplayer (which you seem to not consider) is an infringement of your consumer rights says more about your nostalgia than the modern state.
Yeah but think about this, how long did it take you to beat it the first time? Games on the NES era my be "short" but they were hard as hell to beat unless you are a master of the game. Hell a lot of rumors for why they were US versions were so hard is because it was legal to rent games in the US, and devs wanted you to keep renting the game if your going to go that route to try and beat it. Oh and I hope your "times" on the length of NES games aren't from speed runners who practice the game and look for ways to shorten their gameplay time. Also since your saying "well you will defend the NES games because of "nostalgia" think about this, programming was a hell of a lot harder back then also for a game. Now I don't know about the consoles and programming back then, but now a days we have all these different engines to help cut down on dev time and costs (Remember for a 2600 a dev had to write a game from scratch well now we can just reuse a game engine from another game like how pokemon fire red is just a retooled engine from ruby/sapphire).
 

Roserari

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I'm just hoping that before everything goes down the crapper, there will come a solid system that will render used games sales either moot or unimportant. Like a trade-in system that doesn't screw over customers.
 

lemby117

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Sgt. Sykes said:
Pre-owned games make distributors lose way more money then piracy does. Yes, it's everyone's right to buy and sell used games, but really, I don't blame them for fighting this system.

Besides, there are way worse ways to fight this. Check Steam and other PC DRM systems - once you activate the game on one account, you can't transfer it anywhere else, regardless of the way it was purchased.

So this is still way better.

Seriously. If you buy games that are kinda new, why not just spend 10% more and get the game new? And if you're buying old games on eBay for a few quid, online components aren't usually worth it anymore anyway.
I'm so sick of the "if you buy pre-owned games the develeper will get no money" I'm sick of this argument for a few reasons. 1. When you trade your games in what do you buy with the money you get. It is almost certainly a new game and therefore the developer and publisher make money. 2. I bought dragon age origins along with awakenings for £15 pounds, I loved them so I bought dragon age 2, and I will buy the DLC, and I will buy dragon age 3 so the developer and publisher make money.
 

Arehexes

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OutrageousEmu said:
Arehexes said:
OutrageousEmu said:
Chibz said:
OutrageousEmu said:
No, it didn't. It happened during the NES so it wasn't that far out of the ordinary. People didn't ever call bullshit on it - hell, some people defend it.
*Drunkenly staggers back in, her forehead bleeding profusely*

Sorry, but most games in the NES era are... significantly longer than 8 minutes. What game are you talking about?

OT: The slow degradation of my basic consumer rights, and the willingness of others to simply surrender their own makes me question how much longer I will buy video games new. I see a future on the horizon where I only buy "classic" games used.
Boy and his Blob.

Its not that signifigant a difference. Most NES are about two hours. THat you think "only" getting 5 hours and multiplayer (which you seem to not consider) is an infringement of your consumer rights says more about your nostalgia than the modern state.
Yeah but think about this, how long did it take you to beat it the first time? Games on the NES era my be "short" but they were hard as hell to beat unless you are a master of the game. Hell a lot of rumors for why they were US versions were so hard is because it was legal to rent games in the US, and devs wanted you to keep renting the game if your going to go that route to try and beat it. Oh and I hope your "times" on the length of NES games aren't from speed runners who practice the game and look for ways to shorten their gameplay time. Also since your saying "well you will defend the NES games because of "nostalgia" think about this, programming was a hell of a lot harder back then also for a game. Now I don't know about the consoles and programming back then, but now a days we have all these different engines to help cut down on dev time and costs (Remember for a 2600 a dev had to write a game from scratch well now we can just reuse a game engine from another game like how pokemon fire red is just a retooled engine from ruby/sapphire).
And the fact that we have several trillion times the content nowadays doesn't factor in at all?

And fail to see how making it designed worse should be considered a good thing. Padding it with merciless frustrations, poor design choices and annoyances is a bad thing.
Games now a day are padded to make them longer, ever play x-blades or games like it? I hope you don't think games now a-days are bursting with content when most games have a 5 to 6 hour game time in this new space age tech. Or RPGs with high as hell encounter rates. Like I said we have a mess of game engines to help cut down dev time and cost yet we only get like a few hours added to NES play time. But by content you mean eye candy graphics then yes we do, but I like gameplay over graphics (growing up on a 2600 will do that to a child).

Also remember this, it's not how much content that's in the game, it's how much your welling to see it all. I have games I beat once and never touched and they could have new game plus or extra stuff too do or see (like FF13), but if I don't play it then that means nothing to me. I meet people who said they had raked up a play time of Persona 3 for up too 100 hours and I couldn't be asked to do 35 hours.
 

Bobby_D

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Jan 30, 2011
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As a consumer, while I understand the perspective of those within the industry, I just cannot justify (to myself) spending sixty dollars on something, especially when Gamestop makes it so damn enticing to buy used games: ten percent discount immediately when you use the card, along with that new points thing that gives me points for money i'd spend anyway, AND a subscription to Game Informer (as well as the coupons and discounts I get for being a Powerup Pro member, which saved me $100 on my PS3...no bullshit, got a coupon for $100 off).

The fact is this: Gamestop, despite their reputation as some all-consuming gamer-culture black hole into which the entire industry will soon be sucked, provides me, as a consumer of video games, with a service that saves me money. Also, since EA bought Bioware, I just cannot bring myself to buy their games new. I'm sorry if this makes me sound like a fanboy, but I just cannot do it, I refuse to support EA.
 

Pharsalus

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Seems like it's already the case with EA. I really resent buying a new game and not being able to take it over to a friends house or let him borrow it and have full functionality. and don't even get me started on dlc.
 

Gindil

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Golden Hawk said:
So Sony is wanting to bring about passcodes to prevent gamers from using pre-owned games through PSN. This way, only the original buyer can access the online components of the game...

Uh, would you like to jump into the coffin now Sony? I'll happily bring the hammer and nails

But anyway, what's your stance on pre-owned games Escapist? Personally it doesn't bother me, but I'm a uni student and can't often afford new copies...

And in regards to this new form of DRM, think it'll work?

http://www.dailytech.com/Sony+to+Limit+Online+Access+for+Used+Gamers+with+PSN+Pass/article22106.htm

http://smarthouse.com.au/Gaming/Online/N6B7F8S5
...

Is Sony just trolling the populace or is the company doing everything it can to fail?
 

Savagezion

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This thread is amusing and irritating at the same time. I understand people standing up on behalf of developers, but the publishers' greedy asses? That is almost comical. I doubt anyone in this thread defending Sony has stock in Sony thus being able to profit from this decision. And don't kid yourself, this is about stock, not "lost profit" and definitely not the fear of going out of business. If used games AND piracy stopped tomorrow, developers that went through a publisher would see very little profit as the publisher would keep it all. It's just the status queue of the system.

I found this excerpt my favorite:
Dexter111 said:
CM156 said:
Profit is not a right. It must be earned. If their business model is so flawed that it leaves this option for Gamestop wide open, then they need to work on fixing it. Not blame the person who is playing by the rules
Sure, that's what Retailers like GameStop are abusing though by taking the Profits off of the content creators in the first place... They could try to do something that I can't really come up with or I would be rich or they could just do the "easy fix" and introduce things like Keys and "Project 10$".
The first sentence blames the "person playing by the rules" as the previous poster said shouldn't happen. Sony is effectively trying to "abuse" it's "self-declared" authority to take profits away from Gamestop that Gamestop earned by offering a tried and true business model that works. To fight used games you could easily lower the cost of games. Sales 101 is the lower the price point the larger your audience for possible sales. That's why "everybody loves free shit", every town in North America has a Dollar General store and a Wal-mart and why Wal-mart is called the devil. It's also the same fundamental the strategy focused on "impulse buyers" is based on.

You know what they could do to stop used games? Make better games. Publishers are known for insane work demands from developers and shoving shit out the door before it is finished. They do this because they would rather have $10 now than $2 a month for a year. Good games never stop selling new because people don't trade them in, they wear them out if anything. Making sure games have replay value would combat it even further.

Marketing 101: A strong "used" market is an indication of a strong "new" market. That is an actual guideline to marketing. No one can sell the game used if not many people bought the game to begin with. Additionally, not many people will line up to pay sixty bucks to play a game to get 20 dollars in return. (Pay $40 dollars for a game they don't get to keep when they beat it.) They are out there but in small number when compared to the consumer base as a whole. That is a hefty disposable income and if "used games" are "bad", THESE people are the ringleaders of the opposing side, not the people buying their games. They are buying games for 60 bucks, and then selling them for 20. Gamestop is buying these games off of these people for 20 bucks and then selling them for 55 vs. a new copy for 60. That "loss of income", it happens when the game is undersold for 20 bucks, not when it is sold for 55. A consumer with half a brain can spot the 5 dollar difference which means nothing at that price point.

As for the OP; ending used games sales will crumble Sony. I don't know what the hell strategy Sony is trying to employ but they are bluffing, I guarantee it. If used games were hurting the industry so bad, why are they not offering their profit margin on a game per game basis? Suspicious, no? Black Ops just went down as the highest grossing entertainment release EVER and it is not the most expensive game to make. It is getting pirated and sold used as high as anyone should suspect too. L.A. Noire went down as the most expensive video game to make this year too which was for a whopping $50 million which was seen as some high tooting amount when a top budget movie is expected to cost upwards of $80 million. (And they only charge 10 dollars a ticket and 15 bucks for the DVD) At 60 bucks a pop it isn't hard to make money in this business if you can get 1 million out of 307 million people in the US to buy your game. I promise you no studios are closing due t used games sales, it's bad management and scapegoating... scapegoating is VERY important in sales.

Just put the piieces together and always know that any publicly released statement by someone wanting you to buy something shouldn't be taken at face value. This is actually not hard to see through if you look at the different sources available.
 

Skops

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Simply put; I'm not cheap. I don't care, it's an extra few dollars. I normally buy games brand new anyway so I won't be affected that much.