Sony Refund Policy Criticized Following No Man's Sky Launch

[wulfy42]

Considering that Sony support generally just feeds you the line "All purchases are final, no refunds ever. Except maybe this one time on good faith..." it's surprising that people even got this bullshit excuse instead of the usual stonewall. And god forbid you get the refund through your purchase method so you actually get money back instead of Sony funbucks, because then they suspend your account until you pay the purchase off again, and then ban your account after it stops being suspended.

Funny you should mention this. I got a refund and was happy to wait for FFXV to eventually spend it (first game that looks like I'd like it coming out), then two days ago my account got hacked (i'm guessing) and someone bought Neverwinter Zen with the money on the account. I sent in a complaint and they said they would get back to me within 24 hours. I called back yesterday (it was almost 48 hours then), and they said "oh you'll probably hear from us today".

Nope, didn't hear anything yesterday or today so far. I'm going to contact them again tomorrow and find out whats up.

I know sony got hacked a few years ago, and I have never had any money on the account since then (or before then) as I just purchased the funds for games I was going to buy right away (like I did with No Man's Sky), so I guess it's possible my account was compromised all that time.

STill seems a bit suspicious that it was done RIGHT after I got the refund and had funds on my account though. Waiting to see what happens with this whole review thing. Meanwhile my account is locked until they do something.

 

[Makabriel]

To think all this could have prevented by waiting 14 days to see how all this turns out.

Oh well. What can we do right? Nothing. They would've bought it anyways.

Once you board the hype train, there's no getting off.

OT; People were expecting a lot from this game, but at no point did the developer make any promise that wheat they were expecting would be present in the game. All they really said was that it was going to be proceduraly generated universe that you can freely explore. I don't understand how people can read something like that and not automatically think it shallow.

Actually people made a list with sources of everything promised and suggested that was absent from the game.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/4y1h9i/wheres_the_no_mans_sky_we_were_sold_on_a_big_list/

Seriously, people that believe that they are "promised" things when a game is being marketed ought to have their credit cards revoked for their own safety. Never, ever believe that anything anyone says about a game is going to be in it until you see it on the screen for yourself. You'll be a lot happier for it.

Words don't mean jack in the development cycle of a game. Something may look awesome in development but once it's put into the code, it breaks the whole program, rendering it useless. Anyone that thinks features are promised are naive.

 

[Saelune]

To think all this could have prevented by waiting 14 days to see how all this turns out.

Oh well. What can we do right? Nothing. They would've bought it anyways.

Once you board the hype train, there's no getting off.

OT; People were expecting a lot from this game, but at no point did the developer make any promise that wheat they were expecting would be present in the game. All they really said was that it was going to be proceduraly generated universe that you can freely explore. I don't understand how people can read something like that and not automatically think it shallow.

Actually people made a list with sources of everything promised and suggested that was absent from the game.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/4y1h9i/wheres_the_no_mans_sky_we_were_sold_on_a_big_list/

Seriously, people that believe that they are "promised" things when a game is being marketed ought to have their credit cards revoked for their own safety. Never, ever believe that anything anyone says about a game is going to be in it until you see it on the screen for yourself. You'll be a lot happier for it.

Words don't mean jack in the development cycle of a game. Something may look awesome in development but once it's put into the code, it breaks the whole program, rendering it useless. Anyone that thinks features are promised are naive.

...That stupid. Just because marketing has been allowed to get away with false advertising forever, doesn't mean that makes it ok.

If anything, false advertising needs to be taken far more seriously from a legal stand point, and punished when it happens.

No one should be faulted for expecting promises to be kept by those who make them.

 

[sXeth]

To think all this could have prevented by waiting 14 days to see how all this turns out.

Oh well. What can we do right? Nothing. They would've bought it anyways.

Once you board the hype train, there's no getting off.

OT; People were expecting a lot from this game, but at no point did the developer make any promise that wheat they were expecting would be present in the game. All they really said was that it was going to be proceduraly generated universe that you can freely explore. I don't understand how people can read something like that and not automatically think it shallow.

Actually people made a list with sources of everything promised and suggested that was absent from the game.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/4y1h9i/wheres_the_no_mans_sky_we_were_sold_on_a_big_list/

I should state first off, that while I enjoy the game, I also see a lot of flaws and definite room for improvement. I can fully understand people who don't think it should be full price, or the people obviously upset with the technical issues on the PC side.

The first link in the first "broken promise" of that thread is Sean Murray saying "There's a day/night cycle because planets orbit a sun". This is a "Broken promise" because the planets don't orbit the sun (visibly, anyways, if your ship and all planets are orbiting the sun at relatively identical speeds, you'd never notice) when you're in space. But that is literally why a day.night cycle exists, and he never mentions the orbiting being modelled in game. I know that threads also constantly been corrected as things are found to be in the game, and there is even a competing thread listing stuff that supposedly isn't but actually is ingame.

Clips out of sequence also don't show a narrative. Since you can find other interviews where they mention taking out planetary motion and moving the planets closer together for easier navigation. Even the multiplayer "promise", you can find more clips of them saying the game isn't multiplayer then the one or two where they trip up and say it is.

 

[Steven Bogos]

Meanwhile, if you purchased the PC version of No Man's Sky from Steam, you can get a 100% no-questions-asked refund within 14 days of purchasing the game.

That's only half true.

"Valve will, upon request via help.steampowered.com, issue a refund for any reason, if the request is made within fourteen days of purchase, and the title has been played for less than two hours."

I used to think that was fairly reasonable actually, but then you get something like No Man's Sky where every feature is designed as a time sink. It can take a fair bit longer than that to fully comprehend how thoroughly shallow the game is.

You are correct. I have amended the article.

 

[SecondPrize]

Meanwhile, if you purchased the PC version of No Man's Sky from Steam, you can get a 100% no-questions-asked refund within 14 days of purchasing the game.

That's only half true.

"Valve will, upon request via help.steampowered.com, issue a refund for any reason, if the request is made within fourteen days of purchase, and the title has been played for less than two hours."

I used to think that was fairly reasonable actually, but then you get something like No Man's Sky where every feature is designed as a time sink. It can take a fair bit longer than that to fully comprehend how thoroughly shallow the game is.

Valve's refund policy isn't meant to protect buyers from themselves. It's meant to allow refunds when games just won't work on your machine or they're instantly recognizable as complete garbage upon playing like the stuff Jim Sterling is fond of on steam. It's a reasonable policy.

 

[LTenhet]

To think all this could have prevented by waiting 14 days to see how all this turns out.

Oh well. What can we do right? Nothing. They would've bought it anyways.

Once you board the hype train, there's no getting off.

OT; People were expecting a lot from this game, but at no point did the developer make any promise that wheat they were expecting would be present in the game. All they really said was that it was going to be proceduraly generated universe that you can freely explore. I don't understand how people can read something like that and not automatically think it shallow.

Actually people made a list with sources of everything promised and suggested that was absent from the game.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/4y1h9i/wheres_the_no_mans_sky_we_were_sold_on_a_big_list/

Seriously, people that believe that they are "promised" things when a game is being marketed ought to have their credit cards revoked for their own safety. Never, ever believe that anything anyone says about a game is going to be in it until you see it on the screen for yourself. You'll be a lot happier for it.

Words don't mean jack in the development cycle of a game. Something may look awesome in development but once it's put into the code, it breaks the whole program, rendering it useless. Anyone that thinks features are promised are naive.

...That stupid. Just because marketing has been allowed to get away with false advertising forever, doesn't mean that makes it ok.

If anything, false advertising needs to be taken far more seriously from a legal stand point, and punished when it happens.

No one should be faulted for expecting promises to be kept by those who make them.

Especially due to the -amount- of promises that were being made at the time, if it was a couple little things or even a couple big things then likely no one would care or at least not get in such a hubbub about it, but as it stands it seems like it's half the game of what was promised.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

Actually people made a list with sources of everything promised and suggested that was absent from the game.

As extensive as that list is, there's not much on there to indicate that it still wouldn't have been shallow.

 

[Makabriel]

Especially due to the -amount- of promises that were being made at the time, if it was a couple little things or even a couple big things then likely no one would care or at least not get in such a hubbub about it, but as it stands it seems like it's half the game of what was promised.

And therein lies the problem. People are combing through archives, videos, interviews, things overheard in the bathroom, for every little piece of information that was said about this game and listing it as a certified document of "promises" that were broken. What I guarantee what they are not doing is sourcing out comments and declarations that were made about changes that were made so the game could be released properly.

 

[shrekfan246]

Oof, this thread.

To think all this could have prevented by waiting 14 days to see how all this turns out.

Oh well. What can we do right? Nothing. They would've bought it anyways.

As much as I don't disagree with the overall point, the sad reality is that capitalism tends to make "just don't buy it for a few weeks" not a sustainable widespread business model for video games. No sales = no return of investment = no future in the industry.

Which directly leads into...

To think all this could have prevented by waiting 14 days to see how all this turns out.

Oh well. What can we do right? Nothing. They would've bought it anyways.

Once you board the hype train, there's no getting off.

OT; People were expecting a lot from this game, but at no point did the developer make any promise that wheat they were expecting would be present in the game. All they really said was that it was going to be proceduraly generated universe that you can freely explore. I don't understand how people can read something like that and not automatically think it shallow.

Actually people made a list with sources of everything promised and suggested that was absent from the game.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/4y1h9i/wheres_the_no_mans_sky_we_were_sold_on_a_big_list/

Seriously, people that believe that they are "promised" things when a game is being marketed ought to have their credit cards revoked for their own safety. Never, ever believe that anything anyone says about a game is going to be in it until you see it on the screen for yourself. You'll be a lot happier for it.

Words don't mean jack in the development cycle of a game. Something may look awesome in development but once it's put into the code, it breaks the whole program, rendering it useless. Anyone that thinks features are promised are naive.

... this being a really awful point which places the blame solely on the customer.

People should be skeptical of marketing, yes. And generally speaking, they are. Guess what, we're not all idiots who don't understand that games change while in development. But with No Man's Sky, you have a case of things that were literally said to be in the game that turned out to either be completely missing or existing in only the most rudimentary form possible, with absolutely zero indication of these changes coming from the developer. False or misleading advertising is a problem because it's selling things that don't exist to customers who have no other way of discovering that.

I mean, the limited edition boxes for No Man's Sky actually had stickers pasted on to cover up the fact that the game has no multiplayer component. And when questioned about the fact that two streamers were in the same exact spot and couldn't see each other, there was still no hard answer about whether the game had a multiplayer component or not -- just Sean Murray going "wow, there are so many of you playing, my mind is blown!"

Trailers released for the game from just a few months ago still show off features that just don't exist in the game. The trailers on Steam and the Playstation Store showcase things that the game can't do. It's not the consumer's fault that they were sold something which is only barely represented in the marketing. Contrary to what you seem to think, people have been looking for any response from Hello Games that things had actually changed during the development of the game. Nothing has been found as of yet.

The first link in the first "broken promise" of that thread is Sean Murray saying "There's a day/night cycle because planets orbit a sun". This is a "Broken promise" because the planets don't orbit the sun (visibly, anyways, if your ship and all planets are orbiting the sun at relatively identical speeds, you'd never notice) when you're in space. But that is literally why a day.night cycle exists, and he never mentions the orbiting being modelled in game. I know that threads also constantly been corrected as things are found to be in the game, and there is even a competing thread listing stuff that supposedly isn't but actually is ingame.

It's functionally impossible for orbiting to exist in the game, because stars don't exist as physical entities in the game.

The reason it's listed is because Murray made a big point of mocking how other games used skyboxes for everything and No Man's Sky would have real physics behind everything, and then on release lo and behold, everything outside of however many planets are in whatever system you're in turns out to be nothing more than a skybox.

Clips out of sequence also don't show a narrative. Since you can find other interviews where they mention taking out planetary motion and moving the planets closer together for easier navigation. Even the multiplayer "promise", you can find more clips of them saying the game isn't multiplayer then the one or two where they trip up and say it is.

Dude was on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert saying that the only way to know what your character looked like was to have another person tell you. That's not "tripping up". When directly asked in an interview if you could play with friends, he answered "yes". That's not "tripping up" (and while strictly speaking it's not a false statement, the only way it's true is in that you can play it while your friends are around, which is true of every game and most definitely not what the question is actually asking). When specifically questioned if you could grief or harass other players, he said "yes, a little bit". Even when they finally started doing damage control, when asked if it was possible to meet other players he responded with, "yes, but the chances of that happening are very small." It wasn't until just before release that they finally started tweeting that the game "wasn't a multiplayer title, so don't go into it expecting that experience". If I really have to point out that Hello Games' Twitter doesn't have the same reach as Colbert, then I'm not sure this conversation is worth having. If there are so many examples of Murray and Co. stating, on film, that the game has no multiplayer, I'd be glad for you to link them. No joke or sarcasm; it'd be wonderful to find out that they actually did attempt to dispel any notions that their previous marketing had created.

 

[RJ 17]

To think all this could have prevented by waiting 14 days to see how all this turns out.

Oh well. What can we do right? Nothing. They would've bought it anyways.

Once you board the hype train, there's no getting off.

OT; People were expecting a lot from this game, but at no point did the developer make any promise that wheat they were expecting would be present in the game. All they really said was that it was going to be proceduraly generated universe that you can freely explore. I don't understand how people can read something like that and not automatically think it shallow.

Sounds like you need to watch Angry Joe's review of the game. He goes through all of the promises/statements that the developer made - with video clips of interviews and gameplay demos and such - that are not in the game.

 

[Gorrath]

To think all this could have prevented by waiting 14 days to see how all this turns out.

Oh well. What can we do right? Nothing. They would've bought it anyways.

Once you board the hype train, there's no getting off.

OT; People were expecting a lot from this game, but at no point did the developer make any promise that wheat they were expecting would be present in the game. All they really said was that it was going to be proceduraly generated universe that you can freely explore. I don't understand how people can read something like that and not automatically think it shallow.

Sounds like you need to watch Angry Joe's review of the game. He goes through all of the promises/statements that the developer made - with video clips of interviews and gameplay demos and such - that are not in the game.

I paid no attention to No Man's Sky until it actually came out so I didn't have the same heartbreak but after having watched some of the stuff, holy crap I can see why people are pissed. Many of the most amazing things they showed aren't anywhere in the game. Now I'm one to say that we shouldn't take every feature shown in interviews, clips and such as gospel. The idea that any mention of a feature should be taken as a promise is unrealistic and I'd say unfair. But I've got 40 hours in NMS and while I've enjoyed some aspects of it, having even a few of those features would have made the whole experience MUCH more fun.

 

[Gennadios]

Steams two hour refund policy isn't bad per se, you just have to be pretty ruthless. I've only refunded two games so far, but generally if by hour 1.5 I don't find myself having fun and the game feels time-sinkey enough that I don't think I'll find the "fun" anytime soon.

Objectivity seems to be a rare thing in gaming nowadays though, seems like you're expected to choose games like you choose Patron Saints.

 

[geizr]

Sounds like you need to watch Angry Joe's review of the game. He goes through all of the promises/statements that the developer made - with video clips of interviews and gameplay demos and such - that are not in the game.

I just watched the Angry Joe review. I'm glad I didn't buy into this game. Seven crashes! ON PS4!!! That's just inexcusable. From what I'm seeing, the game seems boring, frustrating, and unrewarding. Not even worth $5 just to test-drive, because my time is more valuable than that.

ADDENDUM: as I'm reading more, particularly the reddit thread where one person dissects the various promises that weren't put in the game, I can't help but think what happened was Sean Murray and Co. basically underestimated just how difficult real physics can be and the intricacies and multiplicities of interactions that go into making objects behave as they do. They found out, the hard way, that real planetary physics and astrophysics is not something you can just code up on short notice after reading a few papers or studying through a college physics text; there are a large number of parameters and complex interactions that go into making any given solar system have the particular planets with the particular dynamics and distribution of chemical elements as they do; and new things are still being discovered that were previously unknown or unrealized that affect the generation of planets in the solar system and whether life can exist in that solar system (for instance, the "snow line", which can be different for different volatile chemicals and is strongly dependent on the central protostar's lifecycle dynamics, ars technical article [http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/07/alma-captures-first-ever-image-of-a-proto-stars-snow-line/], nature article [http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v535/n7611/full/535237a.html?WT.ec_id=NATURE-20160715&spMailingID=51828243&spUserID=MjA1NzcwMjE4MQS2&spJobID=961919509&spReportId=OTYxOTE5NTA5S0]). It's not so easy to just code that. They probably knew it wasn't easy, but I think they may have completely misunderstood just how "not easy" it really is and get it reasonably correct. Consequently, they had to fall back to placeholders and stubs for the real physics and gameplay that would satisfy their vision until their own understanding and capability finally caught up with that vision.

Again, this is only my GUESS, and I will admit, it's a wild one, based on what I am reading regarding the game, why NMS is so disappointing compared to the apparent promises made.

 

[LTenhet]

Especially due to the -amount- of promises that were being made at the time, if it was a couple little things or even a couple big things then likely no one would care or at least not get in such a hubbub about it, but as it stands it seems like it's half the game of what was promised.

And therein lies the problem. People are combing through archives, videos, interviews, things overheard in the bathroom, for every little piece of information that was said about this game and listing it as a certified document of "promises" that were broken. What I guarantee what they are not doing is sourcing out comments and declarations that were made about changes that were made so the game could be released properly.

Well the other thing is, just in my opinion, it feels kind of bland right now anyway. I figure other people feel the same, and they went back to look at the reasons they thought it'd be amazing and started pulling out all those old quotes. I was never on the hype train to begin with, I just like space games.

 

[mike1921]

Oof, this thread.

To think all this could have prevented by waiting 14 days to see how all this turns out.

Oh well. What can we do right? Nothing. They would've bought it anyways.

As much as I don't disagree with the overall point, the sad reality is that capitalism tends to make "just don't buy it for a few weeks" not a sustainable widespread business model for video games. No sales = no return of investment = no future in the industry.

How is it not sustainable to have the majority of sales come after there is time for people to evaluate your product? I don't take time out of my day to make sure I get a new vacuum cleaner the day it's released, or a stove, an air conditioner, presumably all of these things have some ROI though. Video games take years to develop, I assure you the giants can wait an extra week to get their sales. I assure you if a game sold 0 copies week one but sold 20 million a week after launch the publisher would be ecstatic (albeit very confused).

The only reason there is such a focus on day one sales is because consumers are stupid enough to buy games sight unseen, even when the developer has absolutely no history. Look at Joe Danger, those are the only games Hello Games made before NMS, and the community were unconditionally hyped at them going for a ridiculously ambitious project.

 

[Strazdas]

If the line from the Sony tech support was true, then that should be fixed, other than that it seems they have refunds that are quite ok by todays standards.

Seriously, people that believe that they are "promised" things when a game is being marketed ought to have their credit cards revoked for their own safety. Never, ever believe that anything anyone says about a game is going to be in it until you see it on the screen for yourself. You'll be a lot happier for it.

Words don't mean jack in the development cycle of a game. Something may look awesome in development but once it's put into the code, it breaks the whole program, rendering it useless. Anyone that thinks features are promised are naive.

Well, given that it is flat out illegal to lie in your marketing and that were it not the gaming industry such things would result in them being sued to hell and back, i can see why people believe initial claims. But yes us experienced gamers know better than to purchase before actual gameplay is available.

 

[Quellist]

So glad i cancelled my preorder for this turd. It's hard to imagine a more disappointing game than this. Sony being dicks doesn't surprise me at all though

 

[SeventhSigil]

I just got a refund, and considering all these reports, I was actually surprised at how painless the process was. xP Although, to be fair, the reason I sought the refund was because my game's crashing issues were actually getting WORSE in some respects with the most recent patches, now dying without apparent reason or any way to predict/avoid it.

So when I got to the live chat, I pretty much told them, 'Look, I've had the game as long as I had- and played it as much as I have- because when the initial wave of major problems came out, the developer was quick to assure everyone fixes were on the way. Well, MINE have gotten worse with the patches, and the product is no longer able to give me even basic enjoyment/functionality. So I have to insist on a refund.'

 

[Bad Jim]

I can't help but think what happened was Sean Murray and Co. basically underestimated just how difficult real physics can be and the intricacies and multiplicities of interactions that go into making objects behave as they do.

Real physical simulation is tricky, but that doesn't mean orbits and planetary rotation is hard. You just define orbits as fixed elliptical paths that don't intersect. Elite 2: Frontier did this in 1993, and that was procedurally generated too.