Sony's G.I.R.L. Game Design Scholarship Offers $10,000

[Hat Man]

I hate it when promotions for gender "equality" translates to giving women a handicap over men in an attempt to even out the end results.

A truly equal society would hold both genders to the same standards without giving and special exceptions to one side or the other. This is just a different form of sexual discrimination. Of course most people who advocate sexual equality don't want that.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

(this goes for acknowledgement of physical difference too - like Bethesda did a neat thing pre-Skyrim where if you chose a female character you got lower strength but higher intelligence)

As Duskflamer said, this was originally in Dungeons and Dragons, but it was kicked out because it was deemed to be sexist.

(Despite obvious physical differences like bone-structure, this was reset to work with fantasy physics - ignoring ideas about nutrition/mammary support muscles)

Equally, if you had a dark-skinned version of a race that was more cruel or stronger or less intelligent, you'd be straying far too much onto old racism topics - despite that being how Elves/Dark Elves work. (And both races are often Matriarchal)

What we're looking at is a push towards adrenaline based gameplay at the moment; which may favour most males - but it doesn't favour all males, or disfavour(?) all females.

While we're still labelling girl gamers, we've still got a big gap to cross. And it's a gap for both genders.

And the gamer girl poster child of the moment? Jessica Chobot... That's a backward step.

 

[cobra_ky]

Oh noes! The marginalised groups are getting support to be less marginalised!

Next they'll be getting actual equality, head for the hills!

Yes, people are worried about the possibility of organized discrimination, so they must be overrating. -_-

Oh won't SOMEBODY think of the MEN?!

...because its somehow wrong to consider both genders?

it's wrong to consider both genders to be discriminated against equally.

I hate it when promotions for gender "equality" translates to giving women a handicap over men in an attempt to even out the end results.

A truly equal society would hold both genders to the same standards without giving and special exceptions to one side or the other. This is just a different form of sexual discrimination. Of course most people who advocate sexual equality don't want that.

it's enough to make you think that maybe our society still isn't truly equal.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Oh noes! The marginalised groups are getting support to be less marginalised!

Next they'll be getting actual equality, head for the hills!

Yes, people are worried about the possibility of organized discrimination, so they must be overrating. -_-

Oh won't SOMEBODY think of the MEN?!

...because its somehow wrong to consider both genders?

it's wrong to consider both genders to be discriminated against equally.

I hate it when promotions for gender "equality" translates to giving women a handicap over men in an attempt to even out the end results.

A truly equal society would hold both genders to the same standards without giving and special exceptions to one side or the other. This is just a different form of sexual discrimination. Of course most people who advocate sexual equality don't want that.

it's enough to make you think that maybe our society still isn't truly equal.

its also wrong/ignorant to think that men don't face discrimination.

 

[cobra_ky]

Oh noes! The marginalised groups are getting support to be less marginalised!

Next they'll be getting actual equality, head for the hills!

Yes, people are worried about the possibility of organized discrimination, so they must be overrating. -_-

Oh won't SOMEBODY think of the MEN?!

...because its somehow wrong to consider both genders?

it's wrong to consider both genders to be discriminated against equally.

I hate it when promotions for gender "equality" translates to giving women a handicap over men in an attempt to even out the end results.

A truly equal society would hold both genders to the same standards without giving and special exceptions to one side or the other. This is just a different form of sexual discrimination. Of course most people who advocate sexual equality don't want that.

it's enough to make you think that maybe our society still isn't truly equal.

its also wrong/ignorant to think that men don't face discrimination.

Yes, agreed.

 

[Rarhnor]

. For the longest time they were designed for the most part by men, starred men, were written about by men, etc.

Guh? As if to say, if more women in the industry, we'd get stories about women starring women? ...context is what justifies male protagonists, you aren't really going to be playing a Call of Duty with a female lead any time soon. This sentence is just illogical and weird, man. "Men are in the industry so we have stories about men!" ...yeah, well... yes? That's... um...

...most of the "better" female characters are written by and designed by men, anyway. Beyond Good and Evil? Was that designed by a man or a woman? ...or does it not matter? ...it's that. It doesn't matter. People will choose characters and stories suitable to the game they're making. Just because that so often is male-focused doesn't say anything about the people making the game.

It's the kind of design mentality that produces games like Barbie Horse Adventure. Eurgh.

This.

Just this. I was waiting for a post like this to drop and BOOM! Here it is.

It's only a problem, if we make it a problem. Where I work, 90 percent of the staff are female, but it doesn't matter, because people are persons first and gender second. It doesn't matter who does the job, what matters are the results. Assuming that men can't take females into account (which the majority of the defenders of this program hints) or vice-versa, is sexism in itself.

 

[Irridium]

Wow people, just wow.

The reason this isn't aimed at men is because the industry is already fucking dominated by men. Men need no fucking help getting their foot in the door because they're all already in the god damn room. Lack of female talent in the games industry means lack of a female perspective. Which will cause women (talking about the ones who don't normally play games here) to be less interested in games, cause them to not look for industry positions, and we end up losing a whole bunch of potential creative talent. Which just sucks no matter what.

It isn't really oppression, but it is one hell of a missed opportunity. Sony here is trying to change that. And most of the responses seem to be "well, what about the men?". They aren't focusing on the men because, as I said, they already fucking dominate the industry. Men need no special help getting in because they're already everywhere.

This is to get gender equality into the games industry, to get more women interested in the industry, which is dominated by men. So of course they're going to have to aim this at women. They don't aim it at men because men are already fucking everywhere.

 

[Irridium]

Wow people, just wow.

The reason this isn't aimed at men is because the industry is already fucking dominated by men.

Entirely irrelevant.

It's the reason why it's being aimed at women instead of men. I'd say that's very relevant.

Men need no fucking help getting their foot in the door because they're all already in the god damn room.

Not a argument, not a rationalization. It doesn't matter how many Men are or aren't already in the industry. The deal is, now get this, affirmitive action effectively does nothing to create equal oppurtunity. As a matter of fact, the idea in and of itself is either racist or sexist if not both. It's just apparently the kind of race- and sexism that the incredibly short sighted are keen to tolerate.

It does matter, since because there's apparently so few women getting into the industry that a program like this needs to exists to get them interested. And yeah, affirmative action doesn't do much for actual equality, but what this program is doing is trying to get women interested in competing with others to get into the industry, get them to compete with each other, and giving the winner money to help them go to school to build their skills that will help them get a job in the industry.

Lack of female talent in the games industry means lack of a female perspective. Which will cause women (talking about the ones who don't normally play games here) to be less interested in games, cause them to not look for industry positions, and we end up losing a whole bunch of potential creative talent. Which just sucks no matter what.

You realize that your argument here isn't really a argument at all?

What this kind of thing actually says is:

''Hey Girls, we setup this special scholarship just for you, because, you know, I think we both know you can't compete under fair circumstances.''

Now, I realize that men aren't openly forbidden from applying for this, so essentially, this is more about the idea in and of itself. It doesn't matter if the industry is biased or not, if it is dominated by one sex or not, it doesn't matter because the message that this scholarship sends is enough. At the end of the day, affirmitive action doesn't encourage minorities to step up and fill the gaps, it discourages people that don't belong to a minority.

Oh yeah, about your argument not being one. The reasoning for that is very simple actually. Openings are finite. By pushing a woman into a position you are just denying that position to someone else. Now, considering this is a specialized Scholarship, chances are you'll be denying the position to someone who would have been more qualified, simply because you choose to ignore anyone who trying to get in through other means, be they male or female.

What this kind of thing says, or at least means to say, is "hey, we see there's a startlingly low amount of women in the industry. Lets do this to try and get more women more interested in trying to get in. And if you're good enough, we'll give you some money to help pay for school".

And what message does this scholarship send? That if you're a women here's a way to help pay for school? What about the hundreds upon hundreds of other scholarships that cater to damn near every person and background? Many exist to help you, no matter who you are, help pay for school. This is just another of those aimed at a set of people. Like how other scholarships are aimed at other sets of people.

And this isn't pushing women into positions in the industry. It's not guaranteeing them a job at the expense of anyone else. It's getting them interested in trying to apply for a job in the first damn place. Because apparently so few women are even trying to break in that this thing has to exist.

And yeah, it is a specialized scholarship. And to get it, you have to prove you're better than everyone else, meaning those who don't get it weren't good enough. And if you're not a woman, there's plenty of other scholarships you can try to get that are more tailored to you and your background.

It isn't really oppression, but it is one hell of a missed opportunity. Sony here is trying to change that. And most of the responses seem to be "well, what about the men?". They aren't focusing on the men because, as I said, they already fucking dominate the industry. Men need no special help getting in because they're already everywhere.

You're missing the point. I don't really like speaking for others, but I believe it's safe to assume that people aren't so much complaining because women are being helped, but far more because ''ONLY'' the women are getting that help. It isn't fair. It doesn't help to make anything ''equal'' and essentially is saying that women don't necessarily have to put in the same effort as a man because, hey, there are special projects just to get the girls in there.

Encouraging minorities and women isn't a problem, in fact, that would be great. Except practically nobody actually does that nor does much of anyone seem to give 2 shits about that.

Men aren't getting helped in this one program because men have other options. Evidently women don't. That in itself isn't fair but I don't see many men complaining about it. But when this comes along giving women a chance to show they deserve it, now it's a problem? And for the men? That's fucked up. And they do have to put in effort. It's a competition for a scholarship and paid internship. They have to work hard to win it. What do others scholarships do? I'm sure they all have their own rules and whatnot. I highly doubt they just give money to anyone who asks.

And yes, encouraging minorities and women is great. Which is exactly why this program is doing that. And they're doing it because, like you just said, not many others seem to give 2 shits about it.

This is to get gender equality into the games industry, to get more women interested in the industry, which is dominated by men. So of course they're going to have to aim this at women. They don't aim it at men because men are already fucking everywhere.

Another thing you might want to realize. Equality has nothing to do with striving to reach a 50/50 split in Gender, Race, Whatever. All equality is actually about, is giving EVERYONE the same oppurtunity. In fact, the idea that we keep dwelling on the whole Gender/Race/Sexuality Issuse effectively prevents us from ever reaching that...you know, because the entire idea is that Gender/Race/Sexuality should be irrelevant when it comes to these things. NOBODY should be getting any kind of bonus for this kind of superficial bullshit. You know who should be helped? Those on the lower pegs of the social ladder and as with who gets the job, your naughty bits, the color of your skin and the naughty bits of the people you like having sex with should be irrelevant here aswell.

Basically, the ultimate solution to the entire equality problem we have...the ultimate solution is essentially to stop giving a shit.

And that's just what this is doing. Giving women the same opportunity men have. Getting them interested to try and compete and get a job.

And no, we should not simply just ignore a person's gender/race/sexuality. Since chances are those are the main things that make them them. Instead of completely ignoring what makes a person who they are, we should accept each other for who we are. All these "bonuses" exist to try and get them interested in going to school and trying to get an education. No, it isn't perfect. Yes, it gets abused. But it's trying to fix a problem that's there. It's a symptom of a larger problem that needs addressing. And to ignore it is just... ridiculous.

Oh, and all those people on the lower pegs of the social ladder? There's shit-loads of scholarships to help them out as well.

 

[Sredni]

10 or 20 years ago, there were virtually no women working in any area to do with computing.

In point of fact, the percentage of women working in the computer industry actually peaked in the mid 80's and has been on the decline ever since. i couldn't a free source on the internet for that statistic, but here's a chart showing a similar trend in Bachelor's degrees granted to women. i work at a software company now and there isn't a single female programmer under the age of 30. All the new young hires coming in (myself included) are exclusively male.

Anyone claiming that programs like this are unnecessary because man and women are "equal enough already" doesn't have a grip on reality. There's a reason the software industry as a whole isn't as appealing to women as it used to be, and i doubt it's because the maths suddenly got too hard.

Completely agree with your second point, and the first is interesting - thank you for enlightening me. It's worth remembering also that in the 60's and 70's, a degree wasn't a guarantee of a job for a woman - they were still expected to quit when they started having babies. That report looks interesting though, something good to read this afternoon. Ta!

A couple of points:

1. The early 1980s was 30 years ago.
2. This was when the workplace sexism really started to kick in and women started to leave (regardless of how many had already embarked on a degree) because:
3. Computer games, personal computers etc. became consumer goods, and MONEY reared its ugly head. Together with a demand for skills, wages shot up, and computing suddenly became the career of choice for people who wanted to make money. People who were generally men. Computing came over all competitive and macho, and stayed that way.
4. And that, children, is why you now have a male-dominated industry. Good luck trying to normalise it again.

 

[AngelBlackChaos]

E: this IS being offered based on merit. did you read the requirements? there's nothing in reference to gender or reproductive organs.

I read the Terms and Conditions, etc- it doesn't explicitly exclude men, but when you run a campaign with the name GIRL, and the goal being "gender equality", it's fairly self-evident that any applications from men are going to get binned fairly quickly.

I can see why they want to do this, and they do have every right to. But there are just as many talented, creative men who want to break into the industry. I don't see how gender (which this is fairly loudly crying out) should determine any of these things.

I'm sorry, but I know I would support a guy to win it if he was for gender equality and keeping women in the games industry. So please, don't assume they will just "Bin" any essay. Unless the essay is lacking, I doubt they will. Funnily enough, not all feminists ignore men who want gender equality as much as women do. And pretty sure the people involved with this are not the Man Hating, Bra Burning type.

Oh, and @Monoochrom. Males can have a unique perspective to things just like women can. It's not sexist. If I was making a game, I would want Male AND Female perspectives, just to make sure that the character resonates with more than one audience.

Just like having a super dull macho character annoys me, so does a super feminine brainless character. I like characters and games with dynamics, which is with certain games and series, completely lacking.

I don't want a Girl Power game, nor a Guy Power game. I want a good game that isn't just trying to obviously cater to a "BIG GUNS AND BADASS" type audience. I want characters with complications, unique perspectives, and is interesting enough that I don't have to ignore the idiots involved with character design to enjoy a game. And sometimes...what do you know, it does involve getting BOTH PERSPECTIVES.

 

[AngelBlackChaos]

Oh, and @Monoochrom. Males can have a unique perspective to things just like women can. It's not sexist. If I was making a game, I would want Male AND Female perspectives, just to make sure that the character resonates with more than one audience.

Just like having a super dull macho character annoys me, so does a super feminine brainless character. I like characters and games with dynamics, which is with certain games and series, completely lacking.

I don't want a Girl Power game, nor a Guy Power game. I want a good game that isn't just trying to obviously cater to a "BIG GUNS AND BADASS" type audience. I want characters with complications, unique perspectives, and is interesting enough that I don't have to ignore the idiots involved with character design to enjoy a game. And sometimes...what do you know, it does involve getting BOTH PERSPECTIVES.

It makes me sad how often people in these Forums, that seem to generally consider themselves as ''better'' then others, need to have things spelled out for them.

No, a ''female perspective'' does not exist just as little as a ''male perspective'' exists. A AngelBlackChaos perspective is a reality, like a Monoochrom perspective or a Irridium perspective. There is however no female perspective and what makes the notion that there is sexist is the fact that you are implying that all women think or atleast see the world through the same eyes, which also would imply that men do so aswell. So, yes, it's sexist and the ''female perspective'' doesn't exist, next time maybe think about what you are trying to tell me before thinking you can go full caps on me.

In other words, no you silly person, we have personal perspectives, but there is no overarching female or male perspective. If you really wanted to be broad about my perspective for instance, I would atleast hope that you go atleast a little into detail. In that case my perspective would be that of a white male, born in california, living in germany, in his mid-twenties and who is engaged. And that is still extremely broad.

Seems you have the right idea, you just don't know what words mean. Even so, as stated in my other post, women have no inherent value in this or any industry, just like men. Whats needed is talent, I personally don't give a shit who's talent it is, if the person has a Vagina or a Penis or both or neither. The person could be pink and naturally be covered in a floral design, I don't care because it doesn't matter for the job.

And just for the fun of it, regarding your part that wasn't aimed at me.

It doesn't require the man hating bra burners (your term, not mine), all it requires are people like Irridium (and, I guess also like you) to path the way to hell with good intentions sure, these people all believe in ''equality'', they just think that equality is reverse sex- and racism.

Actually, I believe both men and women are equal. We sometimes approach things differently, however. Seeing different ways to approach issues, such as plot holes and character design, can make for an overall better game.
For example, men do score better at tasks that involve orienting objects in space, while women do better at language tests. Not to say that men do not do well with language, or that women cannot understand the relationships of objects to their surroundings, but there you go.
Men and Women have tendencies to look at things in a particular way. Yes, individual experiences can add to someone's perspective, but it still remains.
We have individual perspectives, due to real life circumstances, our past, things we have seen and heard. But with both men and women, there are certain things that tend to follow similar suit with their own sex then with the opposite. That is normal and fine. Some of it involves instinct, or purely how men and women develop as they age.

Its been investigated in Psychology time and time again. What I am saying is nothing new. Just like I wouldn't want an all women group for something, neither would I want all men. The scholarship is meant to give those interested a chance to excel. Notice how it doesn't specifically say Women Only? I could talk about the benefits of men as easily as I do for women, yet this is targeted. Why? If the Gaming Industry mostly composed of females, and there was a M.A.L.E scholarship happening, with both women and men, talking about the Male perspective, I would still be arguing about it. I think to make a better game, talent and both perspectives are truly desired.

So no, I don't believe in sexism. I believe celebrating either sex, and their own perspectives, are a good thing. It gets people to talk about their own ideas, how they think about females, or the male perspective in gaming versus female perspective. And yes, it is a broad perspective, if you involve every female. But should it be noted in a game? yes. So should a male perspective.
You can't pull every perspective into a game, but it is very nice when you bring in enough to add depth. Some games would suit having a larger male perspective role then women perspective, purely because of the characters involved. Same goes for the opposite.

And claiming racism upon me is quite odd, seeing as how I was specifically talking about sex. Of course the overarching point of the scholarship involves females in games, but I don't believe they will just ignore a male's perspective of females in games. And perhaps this scholarship will get someone who would have not necessarily thought of being involved in the game industry, to take a look and try it out. And who knows, maybe in a few years, that winner will end up being involved in one of the best, newest dynamic games out there. All because of a scholarship that you say promotes reverse sexism.

 

[Necron_warrior]

Uhhh... I'm pretty sure there's an imbalance because each gender has different typical interests, though that obviously is changing on its own. I take offense that there's always the suggestion somewhere that there has to be some "boys club" that's designed to keep women out.

At the college I went to, interior design was dominated by women, but there were no initiatives to get more of the guys interested in it. Besides, there's a greater gender imbalance in roofing and logging, so maybe they should be asking why there aren't more women interested in tarring roofs first?

You, Comment that answers most of the arguments but for some reason hasn't been quoted, get over here.

It's not because women feel they can't get into the game industry, I've a programming lady friend who want just that, but its the fact that she is the 1% of women I know who are interested in games and their design etc.

Its like Nurb said, Its the reason in my school why most guys don't take Home economics and most women don't take PE, Interests.