Lucas is the last person to be talking about realistic human relationships. "I don't like sand..."
Spielberg, Lucas Opine On Video Games' Future
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Are Spielberg and Lucas really representative of the mass market though? I honestly think it needs to be asked because I'm not sure a couple of film makers who are currently pushing 70 years old really represent the mass market for games at all. Should the fact that people old enough to be my grand parents don't really get video games and dislike controllers really be something we're that concerned about? Because old people tend to struggle with all kinds of new technology. Should we redesign the mouse and keyboard or touch screen interfaces because my grandmother can't keep up? I'd argue we probably shouldn't.TiberiusEsuriens said:
I think your first sentence is exactly why we probably don't need to be overly concerned about trying to change the controller to make it more accessible. We've grown up with games. Hell, I didn't have my own console until the SNES, but that was over 20 years ago. There are people in their 30's and 40's (probably some who are even older) who've been gaming longer than that by as much as 10-20 years. The thing is that gaming has become and will continue to be so ubiquitous, that the people who haven't played games all their lives are just going to get fewer and farther between as they die off and younger kids get into gaming earlier. These people are going to be fine with controllers, and every other interface that gets thrown at us in the future because they grew up with it. Should we really be looking at making better controllers for a market that's literally slowly dying off, or better controllers for the people who are interested in and will put the time into playing games that use them? I know where my vote is.
I actually don't. I fall on the same side as Yahtzee did in a sort of round table discussion article that was posted here years ago that the holodeck is a gaming red herring. It sounds cool in theory, until you realize that your performance in the game is limited by things like your own physical fitness and the laws of physics. You'd have a hard time making things like any FPS, Ace Combat, racing game, or things even more out there than those work in a holodeck while being both playable for extended periods of time and the least bit convincing. Maybe we'll have holodecks someday, but it will take some doing to have them be useful for anything that isn't either boring as shit or a sex simulator.
On the contrary, I'd say by offering the fastest and most efficient translation of our thoughts into action on screen they are not only the most natural control solution available to us, but not even that awkward.
Is it just me, or is Lucas getting creepier every year?
I have to disagree with Spielberg, though. Right now, motion controls are still not as immersive as standard controllers. After using the controllers for so long, I find them to be as natural as breathing, the motion controls are much harder to use, lack precision, and generally get in the way of the game. I'd never presume to challenge Spielberg on the subject of film making, but I don't think the experience translates as well as he'd like.
I have to disagree with Spielberg, though. Right now, motion controls are still not as immersive as standard controllers. After using the controllers for so long, I find them to be as natural as breathing, the motion controls are much harder to use, lack precision, and generally get in the way of the game. I'd never presume to challenge Spielberg on the subject of film making, but I don't think the experience translates as well as he'd like.
To be fair, I agree that yes, if they finally come up with a completely immersive Star Trek Holodeck game console in which you walk into a room and say "Computer: play Arkham City" and you're suddenly transported to the super prison, are dressed as Batman, and have a complete and perfect understanding about how to pull off his physics-defying attacks, then I'm all for motion controls being the wave of the future.
If you mean standing in your living room dancing around like a loon as you try to open a door, then no thanks, I'll pass.
If you mean standing in your living room dancing around like a loon as you try to open a door, then no thanks, I'll pass.
I agree with your points completely. Its funny to see so many of the old guard of movies, spielberg, lucas, Ebert decry games as having no emotional value or substance. Yet their claims ring hollow to me. Why? Because I have been emotionally moved by many many games before. Mass Effect, Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy 6 and 7, shit even the new Starcraft 2: Wings of Liberty.Vivi22 said:
Two old men talking about an industry they really know nothing about. One makes an alliance with Microsoft so of course he's going to be on kinnect's and motion control's dick and the other has good intentions with his ideas but is way off.
I've been immersed plenty more times in games then in any movie. Someone above mentioned Amnesia. That's a great example. Motion controls are a gimmick. They will always pull me out of the experience. Build a holo-deck like experience and maybe we'll talk then. But hey, Oculus Rift looks promising.
Also, sorry George I'm not sticking any kind of chip in my body mmkay? I just know the corporations would have a field day with that kind of shit.
I've been immersed plenty more times in games then in any movie. Someone above mentioned Amnesia. That's a great example. Motion controls are a gimmick. They will always pull me out of the experience. Build a holo-deck like experience and maybe we'll talk then. But hey, Oculus Rift looks promising.
Also, sorry George I'm not sticking any kind of chip in my body mmkay? I just know the corporations would have a field day with that kind of shit.
I agree with you in most things. We're just coming from different viewpoints. You're thinking as a gamer and I'm trying to throw myself fully into the other shoes. Yes, we can just wait for all those 'not gamers' to die out, but I personally think that the view is a bit cynical and non-inclusive. You point out how natural controllers are, but it's also from a 'gaming' perspective.Vivi22 said:
Lets have some fun and think about the "controller timeline" for a tad. I'm assuming you're aware of them so I won't fill paragraphs describing them, but starting at the Atari era they were a knob, then a stick+button. Every generation things were added, taken way, moved around... there's been a lot of evolution, but like evolution it happened very little at a time. Each was awkward to adapt to at first, but we managed because they were all tweaks. Now lets look at PS1-4 controllers. The innards are different, but to the player all four are pretty much identical. We've had a LOT of time to get used to them (1994, almost 20 years) so of course they'd feel good to us. If a not-gamer used it eventually he'd agree, but it's a LARGE leap compared to our small stretches over the years.
In order to really innovate don't forget the little guy! Or in this case minorities like old-cranky-out-of-touch people, which in a few years will cease to be the minority as all the baby boomers like our parents begin to age and eventually croak.
As far as the holodeck, the people that want it are never talking about using it exclusively, as I agree it has it's limits. But dismissing it is roughly equivalent as dismissing the Rift. There are differences, but they both allow new immersive experiences.
Always good to see they've actually played the games that try to do the things they want. Or not, apparently. Fuck's sake. People are continually content to decry the medium without having actually tried out a lot of the vast variety of stuff out there. Sure, I'm not suggesting people try everything, but you'd think more than just two or three, maybe go looking for games that are more ambitious with story and emotional ties rather than just what's in the charts.
True, I think we are coming at it from very different angles here. I wouldn't even necessarily say that I'm being overly cynical and non-inclusive though. Yes, I would say we shouldn't have to worry too much about older people who can't handle a controller, but I have my reasons for that. Obviously we have simpler interfaces like touch screen devices which is one thing. If they can't handle something that simple then there's really not much hope for them/they don't really want to play games so I think it's perfectly fair to write off those people. I would never expect someone to try and make games for someone like my grandmother as an example because you've already lost that battle before you've begun.TiberiusEsuriens said:
But I also think (and this has a lot to do with your comments on the evolution of the controller) that a lot of people get too hung up on the idea of trying to simplify the control input or making it more intuitive and chase down a lot of interactive dead ends like modern motion control or the Kinect, when really, Nintendo kind of had the right idea with the Gamecube controller even if it never caught on: simplify the controls themselves and the UI. Now that's not to say that things like touch screens don't have their place, but if you want people who don't really game to get a console and get into it, you've got to transition them from waving their hands around like a lunatic and having some silly stupid fun to actually learning a controller. I think that ends up being the biggest barrier actually, not that the controller is too complex, but that people like our parents don't even want to try and figure it out because they see us playing FPS titles, coordinating both thumbs on the control sticks while hitting the occasional face button, and pressing triggers and it seems like a lot to learn. It's like sticking them behind the wheel of a car for the first time and asking them to race a Formula One Grand Prix. The inputs aren't really that hard to learn, nor would it even take that long for most people to become somewhat competent but that's not the best situation to learn to drive in.
I'd rather see more people playing games with simplified control schemes. Want to get parents into gaming these days? Why not start them off with a 2D platformer? Then maybe transition to a simpler 3D platformer. Stuff that's using maybe two buttons and an analog stick. And let them adjust to the controller with games that are a bit lower stress than a frantic FPS. In fact, handhelds are already really good for this. My mom would probably say she has no interest in playing a PS3 or that she couldn't figure out the controls, but she already has been playing various Mario and Zelda games on her own DS, and now 3DS for years. She'd probably do quite well with an actual controller in the right titles since she's been using almost identical button layouts for years. The problem is the interest in a console isn't really there. And if her Wii collecting dust is any indication, I don't think things like motion controls really address that.
Actually, I could see a lot of real world application for an actual holodeck. It would basically be a simulator taken to the next level and could be great for all kinds of training from surgery to combat, to whatever else you can accurately simulate. I just don't really think there's a lot of potential there with actual games that aren't also aiming to be simulations, or at least take human physical ability into account. And there's a lot of stuff out there that just wouldn't work at all so long as you're relying on a human body being your control inputs.
On the other hand, I see quite a bit of potential with the Rift because it isn't held back by the limits of the human body.
It can definitely take a little bit to get used to the controllers, but after you've spent the hour or two to get used to them they're start feeling natural. Even with a holodeck you still have the issue of unnatural movement if you want to play as anybody with above-average powers. It will always feel unnatural to control by movements a character who doesn't move exactly like my movements, and if I could climb as well as Ezio Auditore I'd just be doing that in real life instead of playing a game about it.TiberiusEsuriens said:
Motion controls are an inherently flawed idea for almost all genres of games. Getting used to a controller isn't *that* difficult. I think you're overestimating the awkwardness of a controller. Sure, if you just hand somebody a controller for the first time and stick them on Legendary in Halo they'll die horribly, but I've introduced plenty of people to controllers using a low pressure game with a well built progression like Portal and had no issues getting them adjusted. I much prefer the current situation with an hour or two of awkwardness to having to figure out a new awkward set of controls for every game.
Would you though? I'm going to assume you're an average person. Would you really be good enough at climbing to make the most out of a holodeck ACreed, or would it be like 'Tourist's Creed?' Because although it would be awesome to wander around a fictional world I can't imagine having the physical skills to be Ezio or Altair.TiberiusEsuriens said:
Whaaaat? It's like they've only ever seen or played Call of Duty or something. Hey George, have you heard of Knights of the old republic? It's an older game from this interesting franchise called Star Wars where you empathize very strongly with the characters. Have you heard of Bioware?
Why would making a game aimed at women and girls be more successful than the games aimed at men and boys?
A lot of this comes off as either incoherent or wrong.
Why would making a game aimed at women and girls be more successful than the games aimed at men and boys?
A lot of this comes off as either incoherent or wrong.
I'm going to have to disagree with these two. What makes me care about a character is not that I'm standing up and acting out the scene with them; it's that they're well-written, so I become emotionally attached and I want to see them survive. I can see where they came to this conclusion; seeing someone use a controller, it looks as though they're a bit detached. But it's clear that neither of them has actually played a game written well enough to evoke these emotions in them.
That being said, I am looking forward to playing Mass Effect via the holodeck. You know why...
That being said, I am looking forward to playing Mass Effect via the holodeck. You know why...
I'm quite happy letting my mind concoct it's own dreams that are free of advertising, DRM, and the prying eyes of our space lizard overlords, Mr. Lucas.
These two were already over and beyond the curve of core gamers when the first Atari released. They may like video games. They may be fascinated by them. But they will never ever get them, or get the immersive nature of them, simply because they did not grow up knowing and understanding the natural flow and vocabulary of them. Games are not movies. They grew up with movies. They love movies. Movies spoke to their soul, the way books and music spoke to their grandfathers. But they are perhaps the last two people on earth who would have a valid opinion regarding the future or nature of videogames. It's like asking your grandfather about the passion and pain of childbirth. Videogaming is an experience that will always remain somewhat alien to them.
Isn't it funny that I'm way more immersed when playing a game in my comfortable chair sitting in front of my black square with a controller or M+K in my hands, than when I'm at the cinema.
Also, good characters make me care about them, not being able to physically shake their hand.
Also, good characters make me care about them, not being able to physically shake their hand.
Taken from their perspective, it sounds like they want games to just become films in which the "player" just looks around.
I have no further words for two old men when their claims are based on ignorance and steeped in the bias of their trade except this: Video games are NOT STRICTLY CINEMATIC EXPERIENCES.
I have no further words for two old men when their claims are based on ignorance and steeped in the bias of their trade except this: Video games are NOT STRICTLY CINEMATIC EXPERIENCES.
Good to know what a movie director thinks about making video games. I tend to think that he doesn't have much more than a passing familiarity with the medium. His comments about violence and "core gamers" suggest to me that he buys into the old stereotype that anti-gaming demagogues love to perpetuate about gamers all being 15 cretins playing Postal. It also suggests that he seems oblivious to the fact that almost half of gamers are already women and have been for several years.
Empathy with characters comes from writing not from interface. The obtuse menus of Kotor (which I played for the first time recently-no nostalgia here) didn't get in the way of me loving characters and settings.
Empathy with characters comes from writing not from interface. The obtuse menus of Kotor (which I played for the first time recently-no nostalgia here) didn't get in the way of me loving characters and settings.