Or, instead of posting an argument on this thread, everyone could sit down and watch Babylon 5...?
Star Trek Vs Star Wars
- Thread starter mattttherman3
- Start date
the rouge squadron series was the best SW games for me (cant stand treck) but over them both is Dr Who and Stargate (the BC3-04's could destroy both sides with the asguard plasma beam weapons)
Should have phrased my comment better, I wasn't insulting firefly, I said it was awesome. I was saying both that and farscape were better than star wars/trek. Though farscape felt more sci-fi than firefly, because firefly avoided lasers, plasma guns and the like. Firefly is better for believeability (apart from how they got as far as the other system on craft barely faster than we have now, but I'll let them off that), Farscape better for escapism.Wicky_42 said:
I do agree with the fact that Star Trek is superior in realism...
But what is more fun? a man that jungles storm troopers with a light saber and force pushes? or Deh Phazers... Star Wars is more for the spectacle while trek is more for the actual drama. It is like comparing Metroid prime With halo... VERY DIFFERENT... But hell I haven't had much experience with both to say much... I'm a jack of all trades a master of none.
But what is more fun? a man that jungles storm troopers with a light saber and force pushes? or Deh Phazers... Star Wars is more for the spectacle while trek is more for the actual drama. It is like comparing Metroid prime With halo... VERY DIFFERENT... But hell I haven't had much experience with both to say much... I'm a jack of all trades a master of none.
Even with the new Trilogy I still need to say "Star Wars" even Gungans are better than "Forehead of the Week" and serious techno babble. The Medichlorians suck, oh god do they suck.
Star Trek? Realism? My friends with Astrophysics degrees would love to make you eat those words. Starwars was at it's best when it made NO pretesnes towards realism and was content being pure space Fantasy.WendelI said:
Star Wars, all six of 'em.
Realism really doesn't matter, it's in the title: science fiction
But let's put it this way, Star Trek is more science, Star Wars is more fiction
Oh and...
Level 5 fanboy
AC: 6
HP: 10
Weapon: replica lightsaber hilt
Special attack: Uninterrupted Quoting
Realism really doesn't matter, it's in the title: science fiction
But let's put it this way, Star Trek is more science, Star Wars is more fiction
Oh and...
Level 5 fanboy
AC: 6
HP: 10
Weapon: replica lightsaber hilt
Special attack: Uninterrupted Quoting
I wouldnt really say star trek is much for realism. Hypothetically if the countries of earth did come together and form a federation and alien life was discovered in the universe, it seems doubtful that the military would just run around inviting aliens to join and serve on their battleships, they would be a constant security risk.
Besides, the only class of ships that show has for some reason is Dreadnaughts and Shuttlecraft, and that alone has bugged me. Take Mass Effect for example, a game that only has 1 actual ship in it (the normandy). Even they have created a something like 8 different classes of ships, each of which fulfill a unique role within the military. By todays standards, aircraft carriers are basically considered the most valuable of naval vessels yet even they have their own escorting fleet.
Oh and dont even get me started on the starship designs themselves, most retarded looking sci-fi ships ever. Daedalus > Enterprise (even has a better name)
Besides, the only class of ships that show has for some reason is Dreadnaughts and Shuttlecraft, and that alone has bugged me. Take Mass Effect for example, a game that only has 1 actual ship in it (the normandy). Even they have created a something like 8 different classes of ships, each of which fulfill a unique role within the military. By todays standards, aircraft carriers are basically considered the most valuable of naval vessels yet even they have their own escorting fleet.
Oh and dont even get me started on the starship designs themselves, most retarded looking sci-fi ships ever. Daedalus > Enterprise (even has a better name)
Right. this may take a while.
The old Star wrs was good because they were good kids movies but adults could like them too.
The new ones sren't as good (Lucas ballsed up the script - in the words of Harrison Ford "George, man, you can write this shit but you sure as hell can't say it") but the new special effects are pretty cool and the overall look is much improved, even given that the original trilogy is 35 years old.
I've never really watched Star Trek, except a few episodes of the next generation when I was younger, but i do know that it is on a much smaller scale than star wars in that it is only following a single ship and therefore a fixed group of people.
That said i do think that the new Star Trek movie looks very interesting.
The old Star wrs was good because they were good kids movies but adults could like them too.
The new ones sren't as good (Lucas ballsed up the script - in the words of Harrison Ford "George, man, you can write this shit but you sure as hell can't say it") but the new special effects are pretty cool and the overall look is much improved, even given that the original trilogy is 35 years old.
I've never really watched Star Trek, except a few episodes of the next generation when I was younger, but i do know that it is on a much smaller scale than star wars in that it is only following a single ship and therefore a fixed group of people.
That said i do think that the new Star Trek movie looks very interesting.
Well, with very few exceptions (like Worf), the aliens on the ships are from species that are part of the Federation.PezNic said:
Plus, they're just tokens anyway. Many are considered somewhat aberrant on their home worlds. Not a big risk.
Humans are often depicted as a species that's more curious and adventurous than everybody else. Earth is definitely the Federation's military center and humans are its military species. It's almost like everyone else is content to sit at home reaping the benefits of having a strong military and lots of scientific data coming in without having personally to do any of the legwork. (Nobody more so than the Vulcans, who helped found the Federation and were definitely more technologically advanced than humans at that time -- you see a few of their ships in the series, always fleetingly, but they're said not to be very numerous or active.)
Hell, I've got a joke theory that human society has been warped and homogenized and retarded (seriously -- it's like they have no culture anymore, just carefully-screened scraps of past culture!) specifically to produce a species that would explore and fight and die in the name of science, universal justice, and their secret Vulcan overlords.
-- Alex
Ok, before you slag 'em off, Star Trek does have large, complete fleets. The Glaxy class of TNG series is essentially a battleship, but due to the Federation's peaceful nature they are classed as 'Explorers', the Sovereign is a more dedicated battleship to face the Borg, there's the sweet Akira class cruiser, with something like 15 torpedo tubes, then there's the Defiant Escort, basically the Federation's first true warship, developed after encountering the Borg. And that's just a couple of entries from the first two links on a google search. I've played ST Armada 2. Each race has complete, developed fleets, with multiple classes and a range of role, so yeah, talk out of your arse much? I mean, what about Voyager? That's an entire series devoted to a frigate!PezNic said:
I have mixed opinions on the two great franchises. One thing to consider is that it's hard to put them together because Star Wars is SPACE FANTASY, where Star Trek is SCIENCE FICTION. There is a distinction. For example in space weight and mass mean nothing, it's all about power output. The idea of something small moving faster than something big feels right to a lot of people, but it isn't realistic. A huge ship with a huge power system will always go faster than a small ship with a small power/propulsion system. Meaning that Space Fighters aren't really practical, which is why despite some people adding them in video games and such, Star Trek never included them.
Conceptually Star Wars is "the same" because it's the story of an endless cycle. A point a lot of people miss. Basically the universe takes turns. It goes through a long period of evil, followed by a transitionary period of balance, then followered by a long period of good. Everything constantly gets wiped out due to the way The Force manipulates things, so the technology and such remains constant, except for once in a while finding some ancient superweapon (or plans for one) left behind from a previous cycle.
This is why The Sith are so much more powerful in the movies, and why the good guys are usually crying about how "the force is suddenly cloudy". The good guys were in charge, the Republic was fairly peaceful. A prophecy talking about bringing balance to the force appears, well guess what... with the good guys in charge, balance menas they have to come down. Hence the whole bit between Obi Wan and Anakin "you were supposed to be our savior!" no, he wasn't. The universe conspired to make him what he became to get rid of the good guys.
Ending the cycle was Kreia's motive in KoTR 2 (kill The Force itself, and all of it's users, so that people gain true control over their destiny). Of course the details of how she would accomplish this (other than killing off all the Sith AND Jedi) were never really explained due to the game being cut.
-
Star Trek is bloody creepy when you think about it. People look at Star Fleet and go "oh wow, that is cool. I'd love to be in a future like that". They then tend to forget that to be a member of Star Fleet requires you to more or less be the most exceptional person of a generation on your planet. Even Wesley Crusher (as ridiculous as it is, given his level of genius) did not make the cut the first time around.
Outside of the military elite, you'll notice almost everyone runs around in matching jump suits (seen on earth, in hallways on stations, etc...). They work as peasant yeoman farmers (Picard's Brother) or if they don't play ball wind up on a hell cyber-punk dystopia planet (without the 'upsides' of all the fun technology or a few people in corperations doing well) like the one Tasha Yar was from.
It's basically a socialist nightmare. All of this technology controlled by the goverment and then passed out only as they see fit (ie who gets access to Replicators and such, an issue in some episodes). A goverment which is self interested enough to sell out it's own colonials to avoid a war with torturous maniacs (spawning the Marquis after this incident, as not everyone in Star Fleet agreed with this one, but even so they continued to be portrayed as the bad guys more or less).
I have heard before Roddenberry died he didn't want anyone to analyze the system he suggested because he was kind of an idealist. But later when things were taken further, you can pretty much pick up the hints of what he thought was a good idea and where it would lead. Think of him as being sort of like a liberal Hitler (as opposed to a conservative one).
The bottom line is that in Star Trek for everyone except for one in tens of trillons life probably isn't exactly a joy. Either big brother holds your tech leash (behave or no Replicator access for you!) or you live on some horrendous dystopia planet (also seen in the episode where Picard went undercover as a mercenary). Employment for the successful (like Picard's brother) seems to be doing things like growing grapes so the elite don't always have to drink Synthetic Alchohol (which is apparently fairly nasty).
-
Which universe is stronger? (lol!)
Before someone suggests it (if it's been read this far) the big question many people have argued since they were 8 is what would happen if the two universes had some huge brawl. Ignoring the involvement of omnipotent beings (both to some extent feature creatures that can literally do just about anything making an arguement pointless at the highest end) there is a clear answer:
Trek wins, no contest.
The reason is quite simply that despite being Space Fantasy, it involves engagement ranges that are only within a scant few miles. Even ignoring the relative speed issue, the very fact that space fighters get up right next to other ships in the fighting means they lose.
See, despite how things look on TV in the visuals, Star Trek ships are actually engaging at ranges of hundreds of thousands to millions of miles. It's pointed out that a couple of Photon Torpedos could resolve entire wars fought by lesser species (such as in one episode where the whole TNG crew is under mind control by an alien trying to get them to do just that). A phaser blast is wide enough to hit an entire city block (Kirk knocked people out on this level by setting his ship's phasors to stun... I kid you not).
The Star Wars Death Star is impressive in it's universe for being able to destroy a whole planet. In Star Trek MOST ships can destroy a planet, the key point of some episodes is to actually use the stuff on the ship to fix a planet (using the phasors on the planet's core to perform geological surgery or whatever). It's made clear destroying one or even a sun is relatively easy for pretty much any warship if they really want to do it. None of the races (including Klingons) are genocidal though. Everyone, including The Borg want to conquer/assimilate people at the worst.
The point here is that a single Star Trek ship could sit back outside of range where it can't even be seen, and sweep it's phasors back and forth over endless armadas of Star Wars ships and decimate them all. The level of tech performance is just that differant.
"But Therumancer, what about the Force?". In Star Wars there are a handfull of people who can use The Force, even if you bring in groups like alien "Force Adepts" and "The Witches of Dathomir" whoses existane in the canon is debatable. You might get like half a million force users together through the entire Star Wars universe if you were to really dig. In Star Trek they have entire planets full of races like "Betazoids" who have uber-psionics (Deanna Troi was only an Empath, but it was made clear the Betazoid race was far more than this, even if they don't cut loose within the series). Not to mention human psychics (the episode "Tin Man" they are quite rare however), and whatever other funky powers differant species have (Star Wars Aliens generally don't have the same kinds of powers). When it comes to "wierd stuff" Trek seems to have plenty more of it.
-
What universe would I rather be in? Well as I am not the most exceptional person on Earth to argue "yes I could be a Star Fleet officer!" or in possession of a high Mitacholorian count (or if you prefer the classic version: I am not typing from within a cloistered training facility for mystical warrior monks), it ultimatly comes down to the point of where I would rather be a peon.
It's one of those "scr@wed no matter what" questions but I guess I at least have a chance in Star Wars of getting to be a peon in one of the times of good dominance, where a Sith Empire isn't likely to rape me to death with razorblades and then use my corpse as a meat-based handpuppet. Even with the Sith chances are I die quick.
With Star Trek since I don't make the cut to be anyone, I get my choice of what amounts to rural or administrative slavery under the watchful eye of Big Brother, or to slowly waste away from a hellish existance on a fringe world. I don't even really have that 50% chance (based on time period) with Star Wars.
-
Which universe is more fun? Well in general I think Star Wars has more potential, it's just rarely used in all the ways it could be. Maybe after Lucas is gone someone will pick it up for some TV series or something and get away from the single-ongoing story mould of the movies (and even a lot of the books, which revolve around the movies).
Star Trek really has only the potential for military science fiction and trying to defend left wing extremism gone horribly wrong (you are not all equal! at the expense of your freedom... Harrison Bergeron rides again... for those who read that story). I mean you move away from the military, and your looking at stories about guys tilling farms, pushing paperwork, or trying to catch rats to eat in a decaying urban nightmare, hoping that when successful none of the ones cooked are sick with anything that will be lethal to the consumer. Picard or Kirk's farms, or Tasha Yar's rape gangs. How can the network execs contain themselves with the possibilities in that universe.
>>>----Therumancer--->
>>>----Therumancer--->
Conceptually Star Wars is "the same" because it's the story of an endless cycle. A point a lot of people miss. Basically the universe takes turns. It goes through a long period of evil, followed by a transitionary period of balance, then followered by a long period of good. Everything constantly gets wiped out due to the way The Force manipulates things, so the technology and such remains constant, except for once in a while finding some ancient superweapon (or plans for one) left behind from a previous cycle.
This is why The Sith are so much more powerful in the movies, and why the good guys are usually crying about how "the force is suddenly cloudy". The good guys were in charge, the Republic was fairly peaceful. A prophecy talking about bringing balance to the force appears, well guess what... with the good guys in charge, balance menas they have to come down. Hence the whole bit between Obi Wan and Anakin "you were supposed to be our savior!" no, he wasn't. The universe conspired to make him what he became to get rid of the good guys.
Ending the cycle was Kreia's motive in KoTR 2 (kill The Force itself, and all of it's users, so that people gain true control over their destiny). Of course the details of how she would accomplish this (other than killing off all the Sith AND Jedi) were never really explained due to the game being cut.
-
Star Trek is bloody creepy when you think about it. People look at Star Fleet and go "oh wow, that is cool. I'd love to be in a future like that". They then tend to forget that to be a member of Star Fleet requires you to more or less be the most exceptional person of a generation on your planet. Even Wesley Crusher (as ridiculous as it is, given his level of genius) did not make the cut the first time around.
Outside of the military elite, you'll notice almost everyone runs around in matching jump suits (seen on earth, in hallways on stations, etc...). They work as peasant yeoman farmers (Picard's Brother) or if they don't play ball wind up on a hell cyber-punk dystopia planet (without the 'upsides' of all the fun technology or a few people in corperations doing well) like the one Tasha Yar was from.
It's basically a socialist nightmare. All of this technology controlled by the goverment and then passed out only as they see fit (ie who gets access to Replicators and such, an issue in some episodes). A goverment which is self interested enough to sell out it's own colonials to avoid a war with torturous maniacs (spawning the Marquis after this incident, as not everyone in Star Fleet agreed with this one, but even so they continued to be portrayed as the bad guys more or less).
I have heard before Roddenberry died he didn't want anyone to analyze the system he suggested because he was kind of an idealist. But later when things were taken further, you can pretty much pick up the hints of what he thought was a good idea and where it would lead. Think of him as being sort of like a liberal Hitler (as opposed to a conservative one).
The bottom line is that in Star Trek for everyone except for one in tens of trillons life probably isn't exactly a joy. Either big brother holds your tech leash (behave or no Replicator access for you!) or you live on some horrendous dystopia planet (also seen in the episode where Picard went undercover as a mercenary). Employment for the successful (like Picard's brother) seems to be doing things like growing grapes so the elite don't always have to drink Synthetic Alchohol (which is apparently fairly nasty).
-
Which universe is stronger? (lol!)
Before someone suggests it (if it's been read this far) the big question many people have argued since they were 8 is what would happen if the two universes had some huge brawl. Ignoring the involvement of omnipotent beings (both to some extent feature creatures that can literally do just about anything making an arguement pointless at the highest end) there is a clear answer:
Trek wins, no contest.
The reason is quite simply that despite being Space Fantasy, it involves engagement ranges that are only within a scant few miles. Even ignoring the relative speed issue, the very fact that space fighters get up right next to other ships in the fighting means they lose.
See, despite how things look on TV in the visuals, Star Trek ships are actually engaging at ranges of hundreds of thousands to millions of miles. It's pointed out that a couple of Photon Torpedos could resolve entire wars fought by lesser species (such as in one episode where the whole TNG crew is under mind control by an alien trying to get them to do just that). A phaser blast is wide enough to hit an entire city block (Kirk knocked people out on this level by setting his ship's phasors to stun... I kid you not).
The Star Wars Death Star is impressive in it's universe for being able to destroy a whole planet. In Star Trek MOST ships can destroy a planet, the key point of some episodes is to actually use the stuff on the ship to fix a planet (using the phasors on the planet's core to perform geological surgery or whatever). It's made clear destroying one or even a sun is relatively easy for pretty much any warship if they really want to do it. None of the races (including Klingons) are genocidal though. Everyone, including The Borg want to conquer/assimilate people at the worst.
The point here is that a single Star Trek ship could sit back outside of range where it can't even be seen, and sweep it's phasors back and forth over endless armadas of Star Wars ships and decimate them all. The level of tech performance is just that differant.
"But Therumancer, what about the Force?". In Star Wars there are a handfull of people who can use The Force, even if you bring in groups like alien "Force Adepts" and "The Witches of Dathomir" whoses existane in the canon is debatable. You might get like half a million force users together through the entire Star Wars universe if you were to really dig. In Star Trek they have entire planets full of races like "Betazoids" who have uber-psionics (Deanna Troi was only an Empath, but it was made clear the Betazoid race was far more than this, even if they don't cut loose within the series). Not to mention human psychics (the episode "Tin Man" they are quite rare however), and whatever other funky powers differant species have (Star Wars Aliens generally don't have the same kinds of powers). When it comes to "wierd stuff" Trek seems to have plenty more of it.
-
What universe would I rather be in? Well as I am not the most exceptional person on Earth to argue "yes I could be a Star Fleet officer!" or in possession of a high Mitacholorian count (or if you prefer the classic version: I am not typing from within a cloistered training facility for mystical warrior monks), it ultimatly comes down to the point of where I would rather be a peon.
It's one of those "scr@wed no matter what" questions but I guess I at least have a chance in Star Wars of getting to be a peon in one of the times of good dominance, where a Sith Empire isn't likely to rape me to death with razorblades and then use my corpse as a meat-based handpuppet. Even with the Sith chances are I die quick.
With Star Trek since I don't make the cut to be anyone, I get my choice of what amounts to rural or administrative slavery under the watchful eye of Big Brother, or to slowly waste away from a hellish existance on a fringe world. I don't even really have that 50% chance (based on time period) with Star Wars.
-
Which universe is more fun? Well in general I think Star Wars has more potential, it's just rarely used in all the ways it could be. Maybe after Lucas is gone someone will pick it up for some TV series or something and get away from the single-ongoing story mould of the movies (and even a lot of the books, which revolve around the movies).
Star Trek really has only the potential for military science fiction and trying to defend left wing extremism gone horribly wrong (you are not all equal! at the expense of your freedom... Harrison Bergeron rides again... for those who read that story). I mean you move away from the military, and your looking at stories about guys tilling farms, pushing paperwork, or trying to catch rats to eat in a decaying urban nightmare, hoping that when successful none of the ones cooked are sick with anything that will be lethal to the consumer. Picard or Kirk's farms, or Tasha Yar's rape gangs. How can the network execs contain themselves with the possibilities in that universe.
>>>----Therumancer--->
>>>----Therumancer--->