Star Wars Force Awakens Spoiler Filled discussion thread (no spoiler tags, you've been warned)

[Drathnoxis]

Umm, very simple answer - train the people so they don't go over to the Dark Side. You may have had a point if being a Jedi was about casting space spells. It's not. You don't have a point.

How is being a Jedi not about being able to cast space spells? Jedi are defined by their ability to use the force. If you can't use the force, you aren't a Jedi. Do we ever see a Jedi that has no force ability and is just a good and balanced person? No, therefore Jedi=space spells.

Every dog has fur.

Therefore since this cat has fur, it's a dog.
s/dog/jedi/g
s/fur/the Force/g

Okay, well then what is the cat? A Sith?
So you are saying "Every Jedi has the Force. Therefore since this Sith has the Force, it's a Jedi" which is basically true since Sith are just a different flavour of Jedi.
You're analogy doesn't work, though, because a dog without fur is still a dog, but a Jedi without force powers is not a Jedi.

 

[DoPo]

Umm, very simple answer - train the people so they don't go over to the Dark Side. You may have had a point if being a Jedi was about casting space spells. It's not. You don't have a point.

How is being a Jedi not about being able to cast space spells? Jedi are defined by their ability to use the force. If you can't use the force, you aren't a Jedi. Do we ever see a Jedi that has no force ability and is just a good and balanced person? No, therefore Jedi=space spells.

Every dog has fur.

Therefore since this cat has fur, it's a dog.
s/dog/jedi/g
s/fur/the Force/g

Okay, well then what is the cat? A Sith?
So you are saying "Every Jedi has the Force. Therefore since this Sith has the Force, it's a Jedi" which is basically true since Sith are just a different flavour of Jedi.

A person who uses the Force is a Force user. Jedi are some of the Force users, namely, the ones who are part of the Jedi order and follow their teachings.

You're analogy doesn't work, though, because a dog without fur is still a dog, but a Jedi without force powers is not a Jedi.

It does work as long as you use logic to understand it. When you decide to not apply logic, it doesn't work. A statement of "All A are B" is a well understood logical premise that suggests, rather unimaginitevely, that all A are, in fact, B. Laying down this premise suggests that the rest of the premises would follow it, even if they would normally not make sense. By the same token

All birds are pink.
This flamingo is pink, therefore it's a bird.

is using the same construct. The conclusion is correct but not valid according to the premises. Yet if we were to say

This baloon is pink, therefore it's a bird.

The conclusion would be equally invalid but would also be incorrect.

 

[Drathnoxis]

Okay, well then what is the cat? A Sith?
So you are saying "Every Jedi has the Force. Therefore since this Sith has the Force, it's a Jedi" which is basically true since Sith are just a different flavour of Jedi.

A person who uses the Force is a Force user. Jedi are some of the Force users, namely, the ones who are part of the Jedi order and follow their teachings.

You're analogy doesn't work, though, because a dog without fur is still a dog, but a Jedi without force powers is not a Jedi.

It does work as long as you use logic to understand it. When you decide to not apply logic, it doesn't work. A statement of "All A are B" is a well understood logical premise that suggests, rather unimaginitevely, that all A are, in fact, B. Laying down this premise suggests that the rest of the premises would follow it, even if they would normally not make sense. By the same token

All birds are pink.
This flamingo is pink, therefore it's a bird.

is using the same construct. The conclusion is correct but not valid according to the premises. Yet if we were to say

This baloon is pink, therefore it's a bird.

The conclusion would be equally invalid but would also be incorrect.

You seem to keep wanting to discuss various animals, but I'd rather stick to the force and Jedi.

Using the force is the main defining factor to being a Jedi. If you take away the robes, you still have a Jedi. If you take away the light saber, you still have a Jedi. If you take away the Force, you just have a wise man.

You argue that a Jedi must be "part of the Jedi order and follow their teachings," but this isn't really true. If there is no Jedi order, such as in the original trilogy and the new trilogy, that would mean that there can be no Jedi. We know this is false, though, since there is no Jedi order and Luke is still a Jedi. Now harder to define is following the Jedi teachings. What does this mean? What if you follow most of the teachings, but not all? Do you lose your Jedi status the moment you stop following any of the teachings? Do you get it back if you resume following? Luke let hate into his heart when he fought Darth Vader, did he lose his Jedi status in that moment only to regain it in the next when he changed his mind? Is Jedi status really that fickle? What if a Jedi twists the meaning of the teachings and does really horrible things under their name?

Not saying that Jedi teachers can't also teach morality, but it's far too vague to use as the defining Jedi feature.



My main problem with Rey easily gaining force powers is that it just isn't entertaining to watch. It's not interesting to me if someone can just pull the power they need out of the plot and just overcome whatever difficulties are in their way without a struggle. If someone is going to so outrageously better than the average person, I want to know that they worked really hard and made sacrifices for that power. Jedi's only struggle being to stay on the moral high ground isn't that unique or interesting because it's something that every human being struggles with. Everybody has difficulty being the best person they can be whether they are a Jedi or an average Joe or Jane.

The force used to seem like something that you needed to work at and understand for many years before becoming proficient at. Like if you were force sensitive that just meant you had an extra sense just on the edge of perception that you weren't automatically aware of. You needed a teacher, because these are skills that Jedi have been learning about and practicing for thousands of years, and without the collective knowledge you would have to start at square one and figure every little thing out for yourself. To use advanced force powers without this teaching would be like inventing some modern day marvel with no education of the principles and skills that your invention was built on. This would be impossible since every invention is built on the experience and discoveries of those that came before.

Rey's use of the mind trick was particularly vexing to me, since the ability really should be very complicated. To mind trick you would need a good understanding of how the force relates to you and how to manipulate it in very subtle ways, you would also need to have a good understanding of how the force relates to the mind of the recipient of the trick and in what ways you need to manipulate their mind to convince them of your suggestion. The awareness of the recipient should also have a large impact on the difficulty of the ability. If they aren't really paying attention or very certain and if what you are suggesting would be something that they wouldn't think too much about doing, then it should be relatively easy to perform the mind trick.
However, Rey's mind trick was against an alert guard who was actively thinking about how he was not going to release her. She made him release her binding, open the door, leave his gun, and exit the room. These are all things that the guard would know to have severe consequences and would be extremely opposed to doing. This goes outside the realm of a "mind trick" in my opinion and is more like complete domination of mind and will. This should have been impossible for anybody who didn't have an acute understanding and control of the force and exactly how it relates to a person's mind, otherwise a person's will is completely trivial.

 

[DoPo]

You seem to keep wanting to discuss various animals, but I'd rather stick to the force and Jedi.

Are you saying you're unable to follow the most basic of logical examples?

Using the force is the main defining factor to being a Jedi. If you take away the robes, you still have a Jedi. If you take away the light saber, you still have a Jedi. If you take away the Force, you just have a wise man.

there is no Jedi order and Luke is still a Jedi.

It's because he follows the teachings of the Jedi order. You've yet to prove that any Force user is a Jedi.

 

[Drathnoxis]

Are you saying you're unable to follow the most basic of logical examples?

I'm saying you're changing the subject. I didn't come here to discuss your idea of logic. I came here to discuss Star Wars.

It's because he follows the teachings of the Jedi order. You've yet to prove that any Force user is a Jedi.

I don't see why I have to prove that. You said that being a Jedi is about casting space spells, space spells are integral to being a Jedi, so to a large degree being a Jedi is about casting space spells. Maybe you've latched onto that part where I said that "Jedi=space spells" but I was just being glib.

 

[DoPo]

Are you saying you're unable to follow the most basic of logical examples?

I'm saying you're changing the subject. I didn't come here to discuss your idea of logic.

It's not "my idea" of logic, it's pretty much logic 101. Feel free to dismiss it, just don't pretend it's not universally used.

I came here to discuss Star Wars.

And I did. By using logic to show that your statement about Star Wars used invalid logic.

It's because he follows the teachings of the Jedi order. You've yet to prove that any Force user is a Jedi.

I don't see why I have to prove that.

Burden of proof.

You said that being a Jedi is about casting space spells

No, I said that space spells is not what defines a Jedi, since there is more to it. Space spells would belong to Force users. You claimed that all Force users are Jedi.

Maybe you've latched onto that part where I said that "Jedi=space spells" but I was just being glib.

Perhaps it's when you continuously claimed that, again, all Force users are Jedi. I merely pointed out this was not the case, which lead to you launching into a campaign that literally defied basic logic in order to prove me "wrong".

 

[Drathnoxis]

It's not "my idea" of logic, it's pretty much logic 101. Feel free to dismiss it, just don't pretend it's not universally used.

I haven't studied philosophical logic so I'm not going to have an argument on this matter.

It's because he follows the teachings of the Jedi order. You've yet to prove that any Force user is a Jedi.

I don't see why I have to prove that.

Burden of proof.

I never actually made the claim that all force users were Jedi, I said:

"which is basically true since Sith are just a different flavour of Jedi."

I said that Sith were a different flavour of Jedi, to elaborate, they are the evil flavour. The reverse would also be true, I suppose, that Jedi are the good flavour of Sith.

You said that being a Jedi is about casting space spells

No, I said that space spells is not what defines a Jedi, since there is more to it. Space spells would belong to Force users. You claimed that all Force users are Jedi.

Sorry, typo. You said:

"You may have had a point if being a Jedi was about casting space spells. It's not. You don't have a point."

Jedi are defined by their ability to cast space spells, that's means that there is a point to be had.

Maybe you've latched onto that part where I said that "Jedi=space spells" but I was just being glib.

Perhaps it's when you continuously claimed that, again, all Force users are Jedi. I merely pointed out this was not the case, which lead to you launching into a campaign that literally defied basic logic in order to prove me "wrong".

Again I never claimed that, What I meant by "Jedi=space spells" is that if you take away space spells, you no longer have a Jedi. You then responded by saying that fur was as defining for a dog as the force was for a Jedi. If that was not what you meant, perhaps you should have been more clear in your previous statements, as should I.

 

[ravenlordhun]

If using the Force does not make one a sith/jedi, then the meaning of being jedi is rendered functionally empty. If all the functionally relevant skills and knowledges comes with the magical awakening of the force anyway, then being a jedi is nothing more than being the member of a political party.

That hardly feels like the message SW has been going for, ie the battle between good and evil.

 

[Drathnoxis]

Not "philosophical logic" (whatever that is), just logic. It's also used in maths but not really bound there. I covered it in high school, for example. It's also...I dunno, logic 101 - if you look up anything to do with logic, it should be covered as one of the basics. And, come on, it's not really that hard, is it? It's exactly how the real world operates...because it's nothing actually different.

Wikipedia said that logic was a branch of philosophy, if that's not true, I'm sorry as I said I've never looked into the subject before and I don't care to now. This entire conversation you've been trying to shift the subject to a discussion of the principles of logic so that I'll be out of my depth and have to admit you are right about something we aren't even discussing. So what if the statement that a cat would be a dog because they both have fur would be logically true? It doesn't have any meaning for what we are discussing or anything, because you never supported it in any way or gave it relevance or context. You just put it out there like it's supposed to win the argument for you. And then I have to try and decipher why it has relevance to our discussion. And when I inevitably get you're meaning wrong, because it was an incomplete analogy, you start the insults because I never realized that this was secretly a discussion about the principles of logic all along. And then almost every post you've made has been laced with insults.

Actually that previous paragraph will probably just confuse you. Sorry about that.

Well I've had enough. Think what you want, do what you want, I'm through.

It's a shame because I used to think you were one of the better posters on the site, but your conduct here has been less than becoming.

 

[DoPo]

snip

Thanks for showing you can't understand what I've written, either.

If using the Force does not make one a sith/jedi, then the meaning of being jedi is rendered functionally empty.

A person who uses the Force is a Force user.

If anything, claiming that a person who manifests any Force powers is automatically a Jedi by virtue of being able to do any trick makes "being a Jedi functionally empty".

If all the functionally relevant skills and knowledges comes with the magical awakening of the force anyway, then being a jedi is nothing more than being the member of a political party.

You do still need to show how Rey automatically got "all the functionally relevant skills and knowledges" in the movie.

This entire conversation you've been trying to shift the subject to a discussion of the principles of logic so that I'll be out of my depth

Seriously? I've been shifting the conversation by using basic logic? I expected everybody would be able to understand what "All A are B, C is B, therefore C is A" is. Initially I would have actually written than, but I decided to swap A, B and C with more real examples. I was amazed that you not didn't understand that. Not only that but you keep insisting it's some alien thought construct I'm throwing at you to deliberately mislead you when it's the exact opposite. In communication, I try to use concepts that should be widely known - I won't cover what 2+2 is, I won't cover rules for constructing a sentence, I didn't expect to need to cover how actual human logic operates.

So what if the statement that a cat would be a dog because they both have fur would be logically true?

...opposite. A cat is not a dog, even though the share the same trait. That was the entire point I was making. The logic is invalid. It was the same logic that you used - you claimed that any person who is a Force user is a Jedi because they share the same trait - the Force. Would you also claim that a cat is a dog because they share the trait of "having fur"? I would hope not, because that the same trait - whether the Force and fur, does not make the two other things the same.

And then I have to try and decipher why it has relevance to our discussion.

An analogy is tough for you? Really? And when I deciphered it for you what made you unable to understand it then?

And when I inevitably get you're meaning wrong

Shouldn't be inevitable.

because it was an incomplete analogy

It was exactly enough. I wanted to point out the part of what you said that was wrong. You just wanted to argue about irrelevant details instead of addressing it.

ou start the insults because I never realized that this was secretly a discussion about the principles of logic all along.

It wasn't. I merely used an analogy which used the exact same logic. You couldn't understand it so I had to start explaining what logic is and that, yes, it was actually logic not some weird mental discipline or whatever.

 

[Hades]

I liked the movie. Its a good, solid movie. I don't entirely respect it though.

When I look at episode VII I see a somewhat cynical product. It tries so hard to resemble the original movies and to distance themselves from the prequels that they ended up pretty much remaking the first movie scene by scene. This is very understandable and probably what the fans wanted but as the rare freak who does not think the prequels were the worst thing of all time I don't find it a very good thing.

One example that I find particular grating is that the good guys are called the rebels or the resistance. The Empire has been largely overthrown after return of the Jedi and has been replaced by the Republic which the heroes now fight for. Its the first order which are the ''rebels'' in this situation. You're not a resistance when fighting for the legitimate, fully operated government. Now, I know the EU shed some light on this, saying the republic is using the rebellion as a proxy war because they were unwilling to fight the order themselves. Fair enough but I'm not going to overlook that this is merely an excuse to go back to the classic ''Good rebel vs evil stormtrooper'' setup they used in the original trilogy. The rebels are the rebels because they were the rebels in the original trilogy and they needed to resemble those movies.

On the bright side I really like Kylo Ren because he is relatively INcompetent when compared to his Sith peers. With comparisons to Vader inevitable I found it a nice touch how the character purposly tried to style himself after his hero as much as possible. Its downright childish of Ren. From what I can tell his identity is common knowledge so the only reason he wears a mask is to look cool and edgy with it. I find this very funny.
There are seems to be signs of the Sith evolving. Smoke seems a pretty nice teacher for a Sith and Ren does not seem to have any desire to overthrow him. There's also the fact that unlike killing his soldiers when hearing bad news Ren just beat up the nearby equipment to vent his anger. That's some improvement on their part I suppose.

I also liked how much of a nervous wreck Finn was throughout most of the movie.

 

[Glongpre]

Holy crap, are you two really debating if all force users are jedi?

@DoPo is right.

@Drathnoxis All force users are not jedi. Being a jedi is like being a republican or a Christian. It is their philosophy or faith.
You can have a force user who is not a jedi or a sith.

I don't know why this aggravated me so!

 

[Drathnoxis]

Holy crap, are you two really debating if all force users are jedi?

No, that's not what I was arguing. I was arguing that being a Jedi is about using the Force.
Dopo had said "You may have had a point if being a Jedi was about casting space spells. It's not. You don't have a point."
You aren't a Jedi if you can't cast "space spells," so to a large degree being a Jedi is about using the force. There have been no Jedi in the movies that have not been able to use the force, so being a Jedi is not just about alignment and conduct.

Arguing that being a Jedi isn't about using the force because there are force users who aren't Jedi is like arguing that being a pianist isn't about music, because musician is a much broader term that doesn't just apply to pianists. Or that being a pianist that just plays for money means that isn't still about music because there are pianists that just play for fun. You aren't a pianist if you can't play music and you aren't a Jedi if you can't use the force.

Anyway the name of the group was never the issue to me, I don't care if you call yourself a Jedi, Sith, Dark Jedi, force user, or whatever, randomly acquiring powers to serve the plot is just poor storytelling to me. I went into detail on that point as big aside in post 365 above.

 

[SNCommand]

I guess it's better if I throw my opinion in here instead of making another thread

Personally I would say I enjoyed watching the movie, but in retrospective the movie seems lazy in its story and characters

So most people have already pointed out how the movie doesn't only contain the same situations as previous Star Wars movies, but also has the same progression and solutions, so I'm sure people area already aware of this shortcoming

But then there's how the events in the movie makes the universe seem incredibly small. Everything seems to be happening in the exact same corner of the galaxy, not only that, everyone seems to be converging upon the exact same locations

Now I can handwave some of it away for just being the force bringing these characters together as a sort of destiny, but then there's the destruction of a solar system being visible from the planet in the second act of the film, perhaps being the most egregious suspension of disbelief in the saga, and then apparently that single solar system was THE Republic. Which disappointingly seems to be treated with just as much gravitas as say having your wallet stolen.

And then the final battle involves a couple of X Wings and TIE fighters, never mind the immense amount of personnel and resources the First Order must be putting on the line by not defending the Starkiller with more ships, or what remains of the Republic apparently being too busy to lend a few capital ships to aid in the destruction of the greatest weapon the galaxy has seen.

And then there's Rey. Now I know some people have claimed her to be a Mary Sue, and I think it should still be undecided if the character is a Mary Sue just yet. Sure she fulfill some of the criteria by inexplicably having skills that outshine every other character, but that is merely half of the criteria. Let us not forget Anakin Skywalker somehow outperforming every other pilot in the Phantom Menace just as a child, and everyone being unable to stop fussing over his immense power. The other important criteria of being a Mary Sue is facing no negative consequences and unable to perform mistakes. Now Rey hasn't exactly faced any negative consequences just yet, but that merely places her in the same category as Phantom Menace Anakin as mentioned previously. It was in the sequels that Anakin had to start facing the negative consequences, so we'll have to wait and see what the two other movies bring before we can claim that Rey is a Mary Sue or not.

But this brings me back to my original point, the story and characters are lazy. Rey isn't a Mary Sue in my opinion, at least not yet, but compared to say Korra in the first season of Legend of Korra the character is flat and her story without any serious obstacles. Rey quickly defeats any supposed threat thrown her way, the antagonist of the story, Kylo Ren, is defeated by Rey both in the force when he tries to interrogate her, and then in combat in the final battle. There's really no stumble when overcoming her obstacles.

 

[Frankster]

Watched it last night and overall... Gets a 6-7/10 from me. Nowhere near as good as originals and honestly, I think I might have actually liked at least one of the prequel films better.

Things I liked:
-As much as I hated Finn's origin and the way he went from "oh my god they killed my buddy! now im D:" to slaughtering all his former comraders and friends (or was it really just only one from start of film?) without remorse bugged me, I found the character rather likeable. His butt monkey antics made him the most likeable good guy for me and it's nice to have a main character like that in star wars.
-Phasma was awesome despite (or maybe because of?) her lack of scenes. Might be a female Boba Fett really, right down to meeting inglorious fates such as being tossed into a sarlacc/ garbage chute. Hoping to see way more of her in future films and her presence alone made me root for the bad guys more then the good guys xP
-Them Imperials really got spiffin uniforms.
-Stormtroopers feel more intimidating now.
-The locations and visuals were amazing.
-There were a few scenes I actually found funny, the stormtroopers walking away from Ren's ragefest being the particular best.
-I liked Han's appearance and found his moments with other characters actually quite sweet/dramatic, especially his last scene...

Things I didn't like:
-Rey. Either you'll agree with me and I don't need to say anything more, or you're of the opinion I just can't handle Strong Female Protagonists(tm) in which case nothing I say will matter either and we probably wouldn't get along if that's how you honestly think. Wait wtf am I talking to a strawman? Anyways I hope she breaks more of a sweat in future films, and maybe even fucks up at something for a change.
-Not enough Phasma.
-The rebel..oh sorry, RESISTANCE attack on planet starkiller was one of the lamest battles in all of Star Wars.
I am dead serious about this, the visuals and effects might have been top notch but so were the prequel battles, and those were a lot more exciting. The original film's trench attack run is still the best sequence of its kind for my money, even years on. Honestly I feel you could have cut out the resistance attack and just have the A-team blowing things up on the ground and film would have been better for it.
-The pacing of the film felt weird to me, but I can't quite put my finger on why.
-Finn's backstory. Apparently the first order did a shoddy job with their conditioning if that's all it took for the dude to have an epiphany and start happily killing his former comrades. Stormtroopers must be going AWOL all the time in the first order.
-Poe's escape from the ship and how he managed to get back to the resistance in time to lead an attack
-Finn not being eaten by that monster like every other character shown.
-Finn possibly surviving having his back cut open by a light saber
-Light sabers being treated like normal steel blades judging from the impact. Some people are gonna say they like it when contact is made more frequently and combattants get wounded during a fight rather then all blows being parried or dodged until one mistake is made and when contact with lightsaber is made, the duel tends to be pretty much over.
And I say those people ain't got a clue, light sabers are distinct from steel swords because they are this beam of pure energy and getting nicked by something like that is a lot more serious then with a steel blade whose damage is dependent on both momentum/speed and the curve/sharpness of the blade.
Lightsabers are going to do the same damage regardless of how hard you swing it, that's how they work. So no people, getting pricked by a lightsaber even softly isn't a minor wound and it made the final lightsaber fight weird because of it, Finn should be fucking dead xD And I say this despite him being my favorite of the good guys.
Ren should be dead too also, that last lightsaber hit Rey got in at the very least was definitely fatal, unless lightsabers got nerfed and don't just melt through durasteel anymore and struggle to burn through a human skull.
Then there's the aspect of the light saber users tending to be force users too, which is why they get an acceptable break when doing their dance routine. They ain't normal people, they can actually sense both theirs and the enemies blade even without looking at it. So a duel between two force users in light saber as much mental as it is physical, actual skill with the blade can only carry you so far against someone who can sense your swings in slo mo.
But seeing how even the force users of the fight were said to be noob, this is the one thing I'll give a pass too.
Lightsabers not causing fight ending injuries on clear contact is just stupid though.

Enough ranting from me for now.

 

[Glongpre]

Holy crap, are you two really debating if all force users are jedi?

No, that's not what I was arguing. I was arguing that being a Jedi is about using the Force.

It is only one part. People are called Jedi due to their ideology, how they think the force should be used!!!!

If they can use the force but don't believe in what the Jedi stand for, then they are not Jedi.

I don't understand your piano analogy. You are only a pianist if you play music on the piano. Similarly, you are only a Jedi if you subscribe to what they believe.

 

[Drathnoxis]

No, that's not what I was arguing. I was arguing that being a Jedi is about using the Force.

It is only one part. People are called Jedi due to their ideology, how they think the force should be used!!!!

If they can use the force but don't believe in what the Jedi stand for, then they are not Jedi.

I don't understand your piano analogy. You are only a pianist if you play music on the piano. Similarly, you are only a Jedi if you subscribe to what they believe.

Yes it's one part, but it's also a really big part.
Being a Jedi is about being able to use the force. It may also be about their ideology, but that doesn't mean that it isn't still about the force as well. Things can be about more than one thing at a time.

Being a a pianist is still about playing music, even if it's restricted to piano music the same way that being a Jedi is still about using the force, even if it's restricted to the light side of the force. There may be other types of musicians and force users but that doesn't mean that pianists aren't musicians and Jedi aren't force users.

 

[Bellvedere]

I thought it started pretty well. Finn, Rey and Poe were pretty likable and they had some good interactions with each other. However they spent too long on Jakku establishing new characters and relationships without a proper direction for the story so it really started to drag on. Then it was like it suddenly decided they were done with characters and it was time to cram in a story that was pretty much unrelated to anything that had happened previously and everyone just moved around like board game pieces to accomplish what needed to happen without any sort of feeling (or much logic for that matter).

The Starkiller Base thing felt so rushed and out of the blue. Seemed like no one really cared about it - why think about imminent destruction when we could be talking about Luke and Han who have presumably been doing the same thing for years! Similar with Leia and Han reuniting after years of doing their own thing and suddenly deciding they should probably try to do something about their estranged, evil son.

Not helping was the fact the film felt like it was holding back too many "secrets" in order to be interesting in the future. Rather than suck me in with mystery, it just made the universe and all the character motivations seem so lifeless and dull - I have to care first before I want to know more! Rey has an interesting backstory! cool? Ren joined the First Order and might have had a reason also mysterious evil guy Snokes! Yup... There was a Republic then it got blown up now there is no Republic anymore! I mean I didn't know what the Republic in the present timeline was like, I don't know what it's like without one - blowing up the Republic felt so insignificant (also by in Universe logic since the Rebels were their main target and they chose to try and blow them up second for reasons?).

Basically it seemed to lack confidence in trying to create a new Star Wars adventure. Here's some new characters! Here they are doing the same thing as the old characters! Now you accept them and will care about their future adventures that will totally be new and exciting because look at all the things we hinted at.

I will say that I didn't see Rey as a Mary Sue character. At the very least she wasn't anywhere near as bad in that regard as Luke and especially Anakin. There was enough precedence for most of what she did from the previous films - the only thing that felt a bit much to me was the Jedi Mind Trick but then it was against a Storm Trooper who are generally incompetent not to mention are already been broken down and brain washed so probably not the most resilient target. At least she didn't just ask him normally and he did it because why not? as in the case of Phasma. I do think her development of her Force powers was done poorly however I see it as more a consequence of the clear line they drew between "establish character phase" and "tell story phase" (never the two shall meet!) as well as the need to throw in everything "Star Wars-y". A Star Wars film without a Lightsaber battle would be pretty poor form, Jedi Mind Trick is also a fairly big staple but they made the mistake of having a plot with the only remaining Jedi being MIA leaving it up to a new character to develop powers and provide the action all within the 5 minutes they left to tell a story.

Speaking of which I'm very disappointed that Leia didn't become a Jedi especially given that it was forecast in ROTJ.

 

[Glongpre]

Yes it's one part, but it's also a really big part.
Being a Jedi is about being able to use the force. It may also be about their ideology, but that doesn't mean that it isn't still about the force as well. Things can be about more than one thing at a time.

They are only called Jedi because of their ideology. By your reasoning, Sith are also Jedi, because they use the force.

Being a a pianist is still about playing music, even if it's restricted to piano music the same way that being a Jedi is still about using the force, even if it's restricted to the light side of the force. There may be other types of musicians and force users but that doesn't mean that pianists aren't musicians and Jedi aren't force users.

Pianists are indeed musicians. I am glad we agree.

We aren't arguing that Jedi are not force users.

 

[Drathnoxis]

Yes it's one part, but it's also a really big part.
Being a Jedi is about being able to use the force. It may also be about their ideology, but that doesn't mean that it isn't still about the force as well. Things can be about more than one thing at a time.

They are only called Jedi because of their ideology. By your reasoning, Sith are also Jedi, because they use the force.

That's not at all what I said. And no, they aren't called Jedi only because of their ideology. They are called Jedi because they are force users that follow a certain ideology. Where in the movies have we seen a Jedi that couldn't use the force? Obi-Wan and Yoda never trained Luke to be a Jedi just because he was pure of heart and noble and whatever, no they did it because he had natural talents in sensing the force. In the prequel trilogy we see that they pick disciples based on their ability to use the force too. It's an integral part of being Jedi and if they weren't force users they wouldn't be called Jedi.

Being a a pianist is still about playing music, even if it's restricted to piano music the same way that being a Jedi is still about using the force, even if it's restricted to the light side of the force. There may be other types of musicians and force users but that doesn't mean that pianists aren't musicians and Jedi aren't force users.

Pianists are indeed musicians. I am glad we agree.

We aren't arguing that Jedi are not force users.

I don't know what you've been arguing but the point I've been arguing against the entire time is:

You may have had a point if being a Jedi was about casting space spells. It's not. You don't have a point.

Jedi are force users, you can't be a Jedi if you aren't a force user, so tell me how being a Jedi isn't about using the force(casting space spells)? You say that being a Jedi is about their ideology, and that's true too. If you say that being a Jedi is only about their ideology, you are saying that Jedi aren't force users, which is not true. So being a Jedi is about using the force and their ideology. So the point (whatever it was) is not invalidated by the above statement, because being a Jedi is (in part) about casting space spells.