Steam, banning players for being generous?

[KalosCast]

??? how so, it seems to me that this whole thing is vale getting but hurt b/c their European customer are tird of getting fucked and have found away around their sales policy, until valve adjusts their gift system(would they) I believe its fair game

and when you buy a game you get one license to that game. I don't believe they can stop you from giving that license away, as I said Valve can probably ban away their account but I dont believe they are actually breaking the law

They have a licensing agreement WITH YOU. Not with the European gamer. Their purchase agreement states that you are purchasing the license to install and play this game to be bound to the Steam account you are making the purchase from, or to one other Steam account AS A GIFT and exclusively through their gifting system.

They can easily prove that these weren't gifts because he was taking money from them. By using their gifting service in the fashion, he's in breach of contract.

What I should be saying is that he didn't break the law, but he doesn't have any legal recourse to get his account back. But hey, you agreed to a contract by using Steam (likely a seperate one to use the store, too but I can't remember, it's been a long time since I set up my account.) Not to mention that if Valve were complicit in this, they could likely be in legal trouble in other countries for circumventing their tax or other commerce laws (which are likely the reasons that the prices are higher).

 

[kickyourass]

I have zero sympathy for this guy, sure Valve does some rather dickish things, it's not really possible to honestly deny that. But if you cheat someone (And poententially break the law) you have absolutly NO grounds to complain when that person bans you from their sevices, even if the person you cheated is a dick.

If he was honestly just buying them himself and just giving the games away, then I'd be on his side but he didn't do that so I say go ahead and kick his ass off Steam.

 

[Chibz]

They have a licensing agreement WITH YOU. Not with the European gamer. Their purchase agreement states that you are purchasing the license to install and play this game to be bound to the Steam account you are making the purchase from, or to one other Steam account AS A GIFT and exclusively through their gifting system.

They can easily prove that these weren't gifts because he was taking money from them. By using their gifting service in the fashion, he's in breach of contract.

What I should be saying is that he didn't break the law, but he doesn't have any legal recourse to get his account back. But hey, you agreed to a contract by using Steam (likely a seperate one to use the store, too but I can't remember, it's been a long time since I set up my account.) Not to mention that if Valve were complicit in this, they could likely be in legal trouble in other countries for circumventing their tax or other commerce laws (which are likely the reasons that the prices are higher).

Actually, no. Usually things cost more in europe due to the costs involved with shipping. This is just the publishers being greedy.

 

[KalosCast]

Actually, no. Usually things cost more in europe due to the costs involved with shipping. This is just the publishers being greedy.

They're fully within their right to do that as well, but you're forgetting that they do indeed have higher tax rates over there, as well as they likely have to pay for upkeep on things like servers to download purchases from, people to maintain these servers, offices for these people to work from, customer support representatives for these areas, etc etc etc which would all factor into costs.

In the end, it doesn't matter WHY there was a price difference. Valve made two different offers to two different people, one person sold the offer he was getting to other people and utilized a system for gifts to complete a sales transaction.

 

[Chibz]

They're fully within their right to do that as well, but you're forgetting that they do indeed have higher tax rates over there, as well as they likely have to pay for upkeep on things like servers to download purchases from, people to maintain these servers, offices for these people to work from, customer support representatives for these areas, etc etc etc which would all factor into costs.

In the end, it doesn't matter WHY there was a price difference. Valve made two different offers to two different people, one person sold the offer he was getting to other people and utilized a system for gifts to complete a sales transaction.

It's like this. We both enter a store, and they're selling... I don't know, a movie. You express interest in the movie. They offer it to me for $20 and you for $30. You really want the movie, so I take you to one side and offer to buy it for you. You give me the money, I buy the film. I hand it to you.

The store owner gets butthurt over you getting the film for $10 less and bans me from the store for life.

 

[KalosCast]

It's like this. We both enter a store, and they're selling... I don't know, a movie. You express interest in the movie. They offer it to me for $20 and you for $30. You really want the movie, so I take you to one side and offer to buy it for you. You give me the money, I buy the film. I hand it to you.

The store owner gets butthurt over you getting the film for $10 less and bans me from the store for life.

Not quite.

Imagine that if, before even entering the store, you signed a contract that said that you wouldn't do that, and a potential response to you breaking that contract is that you're forever banned from the store.

And then your scenario happens.

This is how Steam works.

 

[Chibz]

Not quite.

Imagine that if, before even entering the store, you signed a contract that said that you wouldn't do that, and a potential response to you breaking that contract is that you're forever banned from the store.

And then your scenario happens.

This is how Steam works.

Actually, the contract says to not resell the game. I'm not reselling it the product in the example, I'm purchasing it on your behalf.

 

[Axeli]

Well, it's Valve's house. Either follow their rules or try to find the game elsewhere. Those are their rules, and since that person was in violation of said rules, they have every right to ban his account.

It never ceases to amaze me how ready people these days are to throw away all their consumer rights.

I mean really, lets just let the companies dictate the rules.

 

[Trolldor]

Well, it's Valve's house. Either follow their rules or try to find the game elsewhere. Those are their rules, and since that person was in violation of said rules, they have every right to ban his account.

It never ceases to amaze me how ready people these days are to throw away all their consumer rights.

I mean really, lets just let the companies dictate the rules.

They don't, Governments do. Business do all they can within the bounds of the law. When they exceed those bounds they pay.

 

[KalosCast]

Actually, the contract says to not resell the game. I'm not reselling it the product in the example, I'm purchasing it on your behalf.

Legally speaking, you're still being a reseller in this regard. Though you might actually be breaking a different law that has nothing to do with Steam by selling a product you don't actually have (which would have nothing to do with his Steam ban), I'm not sure how that law applies to digital purchases.

 

[Axeli]

Well, it's Valve's house. Either follow their rules or try to find the game elsewhere. Those are their rules, and since that person was in violation of said rules, they have every right to ban his account.

It never ceases to amaze me how ready people these days are to throw away all their consumer rights.

I mean really, lets just let the companies dictate the rules.

They don't, Governments do. Business do all they can within the bounds of the law. When they exceed those bounds they pay.

And what happens when the average consumers attitude is like mentioned while businesses keep on lobbying? Chains are pointless when the one chained has the keys to them.

 

[Cecilthedarkknight_234]

this is why I don't have any friends on steam

 

[KalosCast]

this is why I don't have any friends on steam

Because you don't want to inadvertently violate your Terms of Service agreement or because they all got banned doing this for you?

 

[mjc0961]

Being generous would be gifting people games for free (hence the term "gifting"). Abusing the gifting system like that is bad, and I am happy that Valve would rather ban the abusers than shut down the gifting system altogether. If European gamers think Steam prices in their region are too high, they are free to shop elsewhere, unless I missed something massive and Steam is now the only open store in Europe from which people can buy computer games. Or they can write to Steam support en masse and complain about the prices. But pulling stunts like this doesn't help anyone.

I say good for Valve for punishing these people. There is always a right way and a wrong way to protest something you think is unfair. These people did it the wrong way and if they broke any of the rules in the Steam Terms of Use while doing so, they deserve to get the banhammer dropped on them. If I may quote Maddox,

Spoiler

And while this isn't civil disobedience, the same concept applies.

 

[ChaosReaver]

I've gifted cross-continent before, once or twice. I imagine it's just that he did so much of it at once that it set up a flag in the system. Steam was kind of dickish about the whole thing though, I agree. Dude was just being nice and trying to share games; they get their money either way, why ban the guy?

See the thing is though that he was getting money from people to buy them the game for a reduced price. I think what you're doing is a legitimate gift, not a sort of "black market" (for lack of a better term. Front maybe?) shop.

But I digress.

 

[Zer_]

Actually, no. Usually things cost more in europe due to the costs involved with shipping. This is just the publishers being greedy.

You want to know why it's more expensive in some places? Let me lay it out for you. Big publishers have offices and manufacturers (they burn the disks off of a master en masse) that are placed in Europe. This allows them to sell these goods without having to go through VAT, since the discs in question are not actually imported. They are printed and sold in Europe.

Steam, however, is a strictly American retailer. They don't have any subsidiaries in Europe. Therefore they have to apply VAT to the games that they sell. About 15-20% of each sale goes to Valve, most of the rest goes straight to the Publisher. If you want to scold anyone for gouging the price, then look at the local European laws for your answers, if you must, go to the Publishers who set the prices on Steam.

You can hate Steam all you want, I really don't care. Just don't go blabbing out falsehoods and misconceptions just to somehow justify your hatred towards Steam. Regardless of the laws at hand, what the user did was mis-used the gift system outside of its intended purposes.

Valve allowed us to gift games overseas because they want us to be able to gift things to our friends without having to pay the taxes. When someone abuses that privilege, they're risking severe harm towards Valve and the community by satisfying their own selfish ends. If Valve allows this to continue, then they risk losing a Publisher, thus rendering the game unavailable to hundreds of thousands of other users. Why? All because some asshole doesn't want to pay his taxes?! Furthermore, they also risk legal issues, which could end poorly in all manner of ways.

Your arguments are flimsy. The law isn't about interpretation. It's a clear cut law, you see. When you gift something overseas (including digital goods), then it is under the agreement that you are not doing so to avoid the taxes. Read: Receiving the money from the buyer, so he may have someone purchase the game for him/her.

If large corporations like ThinkGeek, cannot sell a product an label any of their packages as gifts, then what makes you think the average joe can? Oh and don't give me the whole "but he wasn't selling anything" crap. As far as the law goes, he was.

There are two equally valid, and separate reasons for which they banned this user.

-The user was breaking the law in assisting European users in dodging VAT taxes.
-The user was undermining the regional prices set in place by the Publisher/Developer.

Had the users exchanged gifts, then maybe this would've turned out differently.

 

[Taunta]

Not quite.

Imagine that if, before even entering the store, you signed a contract that said that you wouldn't do that, and a potential response to you breaking that contract is that you're forever banned from the store.

And then your scenario happens.

This is how Steam works.

Actually, the contract says to not resell the game. I'm not reselling it the product in the example, I'm purchasing it on your behalf.

That isn't what the guy in the OP did though. Buying and gifting games for people in other countries is fine, and sometimes encouraged. Buying and reselling is however, not. The guy in the OP was selling it via a separate PayPal transaction. So simply gifting it wouldn't get you banned.

 

[Canid117]

I would have just started charging the guy overseas prices for every game and item he buys until they recoup their loses. Funny and less cruel! The perfect combination.

 

[Zer_]

I would have just started charging the guy overseas prices for every game and item he buys until they recoup their loses. Funny and less cruel! The perfect combination.

There are a lot of more lenient things Valve could have done to deal with this situation. You know, I may not completely agree with Valve's way of dealing with this, but I don't think what they did was wrong.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

If Valve allows this to continue, then they risk losing a Publisher

Pretty much, yes. If Valve loses the confidence of Publishers then they'll pull up stumps, leave Steam and probably launch a rather large lawsuit against Valve for not taking 'reasonable measures' to protect the property of the Publishers.