Steam is NOT Offering Special Exceptions For No Man's Sky Refunds

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

*Shrug* That's what happens when the industry moves to download-only and gamers(as a whole) enthusiastically support such a move. Sometimes you'll get burned and won't even have a copy that you can sell.

You can't on-sell PC software anymore anyway - it's been that way for well over a decade.

 

[bluegate]

That or the behaviour of entitled customers. My guess lies with the latter.

The devs lied, dude. Many times. This has nothing to do with entitlement.

Let's see, the industry knows many reviewers and 'critics', every big game that is released will have a shit ton of videos on it within even a couple of days, pointing out the good and bad parts of the game. Heck, developers send out copies early so that reviewers can get their reviews out on launch day even, all to service customers that would like to research a product before they buy.
Steam's refund policy has been in place for some while and any concerning customer should know of its rules and how it works.

So, here we have an industry that will lay bear a game's innards on the few days following release if not on the release date itself.
If people just showed a little restraint in buying games, just waited even two to five days, watched a few people play it, then they would have known about the game's issues.

But no, people like to rush in head first, ignoring ample opportunities to learn about the game, just so that they can have it on launch day.
And afterwards they like to complain when they have sunk more than enough time into a game and they can't get a refund ( although many apparently can ).

Although I haven't looked into it too much, sure, the developer made several false statements on the game and they should be faulted for it, I can't help but also find some fault with the people buying it without doing any research on the game or how refunding works for the store they are buying it on.

Wow, this game just keeps getting worse all the time.

That or the behaviour of entitled customers. My guess lies with the latter.

In a game which sold itself on this colossal universe with an endless supply of things to do I don't see how customers wanting to play for more than 2 hours to see if the game's worth its price is particularly entitled. The fact people are defending a policy which simply doesn't work for a lot of games (both large open world games like NMS and games which are short enough to be completed in under 2 hours) purely because it's better than what Steam had before, i.e. sod all, kind of blows my mind. Are so many people that beholden to Valve that they'd rather brush off their terrible customer service as "customer entitlement" instead of asking for better?

I have no stake either way in this NMS debacle (if anything I'd prefer people got burned by this to help change this ridiculous pre-order generation we have) but this incident really highlights one of Steam's biggest shortcomings and it really shows how few f's they give any more about customer satisfaction that they refuse to address it at all.

I don't care about Valve or Steam, I'm not involved with either in any form, but I do get a little annoyed at people I described above and that is what my 'entitled customers' statement was about, although I didn't provide any context for it in my initial post.

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

Doesn't anyway wait to read reviews anymore? This is how I saved 70 bucks on Beyond Earth.

 

[RaikuFA]

Doesn't anyway wait to read reviews anymore? This is how I saved 70 bucks on Beyond Earth.

I do. Only two games I have reserved are Dragon Quest 7 and Shin Megami Tensed 4: Final. Both are games that have been played in moonspeak, so there's no issue like with NMS.

 

[Raioken18]

Is it up to the consumer to check that current promotional materials for a game are based on the actual game they are buying? As others have said there are still trailers on the store page directly advertising features that do not exist. It's not the users that are in the wrong here.

It is still happening though, the communication from Hello Games and Sean Murray has been so incredibly vague that it is impossible to make a purchasing decision based on features and content that appear to still be changing daily.

In the case of NMS, there is essentially enough base content to cover 3 hours, then you are going to just rinse and repeat. It appears designed that way intentionally. A lot of those missing features would be hard to assess in your first 2 hours.

Which leads me to my last point, I have basically completed the game within 20 hours. I'm missing 2 achievements (One of which is just stand on a planet for 8 hours...) and a few slots on my multi tool, I don't have all language unlocked. Everything else is done... Do I feel ripped off? Yeah... it doesn't seem like this should have been a full priced game and Hello Games are likely laughing all the way to the bank. There's gotta be a great profit margin selling a Spore mod for a full $80 price tag.

I remember Sean saying that he hopes in the future more games will use this format... man I hope he's wrong.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

Maybe in 5 or 6 years once all the features they planned are patched in, it might be a game worth playing. Right now, people were sold a product based on lies. They should be entitled to a full refund.

 

[Dr. Crawver]

Hahahahahaha fuck you steam and fuck you valve, after years of no refunds you finally offer a paltry refund system AT BEST I am so sick of the "Buyer Beware" argument people keep bringing up, yeah "Buyer Beware" is all fine and good until OH YEAH your dealing with a developer that LIED on multiple occasions, its called false advertising

And anyone who is seriously going to disagree with me, do me a favor, go onto youtube, and search Jimquisition: Buyers Beware and then come back and tell me "I'm wrong"

Dude...valve have a fair few issues with their service, I'm not going to claim otherwise, but the refund thing is one of the few things they've done right in the last few years.

Think about it. 2 hours is more than enough time for a good 95% of games out there to find out whether you like it or not. If they make it longer, it starts to become a little too easy to game the system as we're entering the realm of actually being able to complete certain games in that time. In addition to that, why should it be valves job to fix the devs mess? They have a reasonable policy, and one game that everyone got stupidly over-hyped for turned out was missing actual play value that became apparent at around the 8 hour mark. Ok...you have still played for 8 hours. That's a full work day. Do you still deserve a refund by that point? The game may not be all you hoped for, but it's still taken up a decent chunk of your time. You have used it a decent amount. Why should valve then have to pick up the bill for it?

Complain about the claims Hello games made that turned out to be false. Say the game is a shell of what was promised. That's fine. But don't then blame valve for that issue.

 

[JUMBO PALACE]

I wonder how Murray and everyone at Hello Games are feeling right now. In the midst of the negative shit-storm their surrounded by, so many people are demanding refunds that Valve has to post on their store page to remind everyone of the rules. That's gotta be depressing as shit. Well, as depressed as you can be when you're swimming in cash.

OT: I don't really see why everyone is going at each other's throats in this thread. Both sides are right. Hello Games should not have lied about the game's features and any misleading advertising should be addressed/removed. But also, don't pre-order or spend your money on a product before fully investigating its quality and execution. We have so many resources available now to let people know if a game lives up to its promises/is a good port/is worth the money. Just STOP giving people your money ahead of time for a product that has no chance of being in short supply. I feel bad for people who were excited for NMS as I've been burned by games I was looking forward to as well. There's no benefit to getting on the hype train.

Oh and if you're one of those people who didn't have technical issues pop up until 8 hours in or so that blows and good luck with your refund requests.

 

[sXeth]

When you're a victim of both your own hype and an overzealous developer, you kinda get what you deserve IMO.

when you are a victim of false advertisement normally you get to sue the company for a hefty sum. but no, in videogames that just means your at fault because fuck consumer rights, ye?

I can't tell you the amount of things promised by a dev that didn't make it into the final game. However, there's a difference between a dev talking about a game in interviews and advertisement.
World of Warcraft is notorious for promising features or content that never makes it into the game, and no explanation is given why said content isn't ever released. Promises and advertising are not the same thing.

The Jimquisition recently on it kind of covered a good stance. While Hello didn't do a whole lot of unmuddying of the waters. Footage of earlier builds and discussion of features in developmental states don't really constitute promises. People who enjoy the game might miss the features, but will still enjoy the game. People who don't enjoy the game or got overhyped will latch onto these snippets as the reasons they made a mistake rather then taking personal responsibility. His other example, for instance, was all the Bioshock Infinite "gameplay" trailers that showed a whole stealth level, and things like Booker and Elizabeth combining powers.

The multiplayer thing seems like a more clear cut case, but the clip of the interview as a whole, it seems like he makes a joke "Well no one knows what you look like unless they see you" and they try and hammer him down into saying there's multiplayer. Which there is, of a sort. You can tell if someones in the area if they start naming things particularly, or you find their discoveries. I've been on a planet that I discovered, then suddenly started finding animals discovered by someone else, who must have got there after me, or they'd have discovered the planet. Yeah, thats not what people wanted in multiplayer, but its whats there. I barely followed the game at all (primarily in the reveal 2 years ago, and the more recent gameplay stuff) and still ran across them saying "Its not an MMO, its not a game you play alongside your friends, its not a multiplayer experience" multiple times.

 

[Maze1125]

Steam refund times should be based on price, not just a blanket 2 hour limit:

For example:
<?3 you have 15 minutes play for a refund.
?3-?5 you have 30 minutes play for a refund.
?5-?10 you have 1 hour play for a refund.
?10-?20 you have 2 hours play for a refund.
?20-?50 you have 5 hours play for a refund.
?50+ you have 10 hours play for a refund.

This allows people to play the game enough to try out every feature, and even encourages publishers to price their games more reasonably to the play-time with-in.

Indie games with less than 2 hours of play time no-longer have people refunding after completing the game and games with large numbers of features and a high price give people enough time to test out the game in depth without having to make a rush decision.

 

[The Enquirer]

I wonder how Murray and everyone at Hello Games are feeling right now. In the midst of the negative shit-storm their surrounded by, so many people are demanding refunds that Valve has to post on their store page to remind everyone of the rules. That's gotta be depressing as shit. Well, as depressed as you can be when you're swimming in cash.

OT: I don't really see why everyone is going at each other's throats in this thread. Both sides are right. Hello Games should not have lied about the game's features and any misleading advertising should be addressed/removed. But also, don't pre-order or spend your money on a product before fully investigating its quality and execution. We have so many resources available now to let people know if a game lives up to its promises/is a good port/is worth the money. Just STOP giving people your money ahead of time for a product that has no chance of being in short supply. I feel bad for people who were excited for NMS as I've been burned by games I was looking forward to as well. There's no benefit to getting on the hype train.

Oh and if you're one of those people who didn't have technical issues pop up until 8 hours in or so that blows and good luck with your refund requests.

Well they ought to feel like shit. They released a product that was being advertised showing things in game footage that were not actually in game on the steam trailer while it was being sold. Then they went silent regarding those complaints.

I get things change over the course of development and not everything makes it in, but they should have actually mentioned these things.

 

[fix-the-spade]

No Man's Sky has brought the two hour rule under some scrutiny. Obviously, a game as expansive and slow as NMS would require more time for players to realize it didn't deliver on the promises they expected, but, if they have already sunk 10, 15, or 20 hours into the game, is it still fair for them to receive a full refund?

Yes, entirely so.

A product sold with the aid on deception is a product sold by deception. That the deception takes several hours to uncover is immaterial, as it would be with any other product.

 

[Baresark]

I used to champion their return policy, but it's really shit. If I have a choice between Steam and GOG, it's GOG all the way. They offer a 30 day money back no matter what. That two hours thing is complete shit. Two weeks is fine, but the two hours... ugh. I didn't even get off the first planet for about 3, and it was only after that I realized how shallow the game was. I have 5 hours on record... and I can't get a refund. What good is that return policy. You literally have to boot the game, then decide immediately if it's what you expected.

Edit: The whole special exception to the return policy thing... that was never true. But that is what happens when an idiot makes an article from a goddamn Reddit post. Fuckin' christ... games journalism my ass.

Well, sure it is quite bad, but over here it's actually quite great. I don't know of any actual store that sells physical copies of games that allow returns once the seal is broken (in cases where they keep the discs in drawers) or open the plastic (in cases where the games are actually sealed). The only acceptable return for as long as I have been playing games is if the game is literally broken. And with GameStop they won't even give you returns if it is broken when you get it. It's bad compared to GOG, but I'd be hard pressed to find physical stores that offer anything better. This is probably cultural though.

That is completely fair, it's the same thing here in the US so far as places like Gamestop is concerned. At first I considered a return policy for digital goods a minor miracle. Gamestop used to have a really good return policy, but not for a while now (showing my age on that one).

 

[MrFalconfly]

Wow, this game just keeps getting worse all the time.

That or the behaviour of entitled customers. My guess lies with the latter.

In a game which sold itself on this colossal universe with an endless supply of things to do I don't see how customers wanting to play for more than 2 hours to see if the game's worth its price is particularly entitled. The fact people are defending a policy which simply doesn't work for a lot of games (both large open world games like NMS and games which are short enough to be completed in under 2 hours) purely because it's better than what Steam had before, i.e. sod all, kind of blows my mind. Are so many people that beholden to Valve that they'd rather brush off their terrible customer service as "customer entitlement" instead of asking for better?

I have no stake either way in this NMS debacle (if anything I'd prefer people got burned by this to help change this ridiculous pre-order generation we have) but this incident really highlights one of Steam's biggest shortcomings and it really shows how few f's they give any more about customer satisfaction that they refuse to address it at all.

Well, considering that Steam also operates within the EU, let's look at what the EU law says about this.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm
Under EU rules, a trader must repair, replace, reduce the price or give you a refund if goods you bought turn out to be faulty or do not look or work as advertised.

If you bought a good or a service online or outside of a shop (by telephone, mail order, from a door-to-door salesperson), you also have the right to cancel and return your order within 14 days, for any reason and with no justification.

Hm. Nothing about playing it for 2 hours.

Actually, if we go as far, as to say that No Man's Sky was "faulty", then it actually expands the right of refund to 2 years.

Free of charge, 2-year guarantee (legal guarantee)

Under EU rules you always have the right to a minimum 2-year guarantee at no cost.

This 2-year guarantee is your minimum right. National rules in your country may give you extra protection: however, any deviation from EU rules must always be in the consumer's best interest.

If goods you bought anywhere in the EU turn out to be faulty or do not look or work as advertised, the seller must repair or replace them free of charge or give you a price reduction or a full refund.

As a general rule, you will only be able to ask for a partial or full refund when it is not possible to repair or replace the goods.

However, I'll be fine with having the limit at 336 hours, or 14 days, simply because the product wasn't as advertised. As guaranteed by EU law.

 

[MonsterCrit]

I used to champion their return policy, but it's really shit. If I have a choice between Steam and GOG, it's GOG all the way. They offer a 30 day money back no matter what.

So long as you didn't actually attempt to download the game.

The refund is fine. See the only people hurt by NMS are those who either preordered or bought it on day 1. I.e. people who decidied to buy before there was any objective information on the game.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Wow, this game just keeps getting worse all the time.

That or the behaviour of entitled customers. My guess lies with the latter.

In a game which sold itself on this colossal universe with an endless supply of things to do I don't see how customers wanting to play for more than 2 hours to see if the game's worth its price is particularly entitled. The fact people are defending a policy which simply doesn't work for a lot of games (both large open world games like NMS and games which are short enough to be completed in under 2 hours) purely because it's better than what Steam had before, i.e. sod all, kind of blows my mind. Are so many people that beholden to Valve that they'd rather brush off their terrible customer service as "customer entitlement" instead of asking for better?

I have no stake either way in this NMS debacle (if anything I'd prefer people got burned by this to help change this ridiculous pre-order generation we have) but this incident really highlights one of Steam's biggest shortcomings and it really shows how few f's they give any more about customer satisfaction that they refuse to address it at all.

Well, considering that Steam also operates within the EU, let's look at what the EU law says about this.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm
Under EU rules, a trader must repair, replace, reduce the price or give you a refund if goods you bought turn out to be faulty or do not look or work as advertised.

If you bought a good or a service online or outside of a shop (by telephone, mail order, from a door-to-door salesperson), you also have the right to cancel and return your order within 14 days, for any reason and with no justification.

Hm. Nothing about playing it for 2 hours.

Actually, if we go as far, as to say that No Man's Sky was "faulty", then it actually expands the right of refund to 2 years.

Free of charge, 2-year guarantee (legal guarantee)

Under EU rules you always have the right to a minimum 2-year guarantee at no cost.

This 2-year guarantee is your minimum right. National rules in your country may give you extra protection: however, any deviation from EU rules must always be in the consumer's best interest.

If goods you bought anywhere in the EU turn out to be faulty or do not look or work as advertised, the seller must repair or replace them free of charge or give you a price reduction or a full refund.

As a general rule, you will only be able to ask for a partial or full refund when it is not possible to repair or replace the goods.

However, I'll be fine with having the limit at 336 hours, or 14 days, simply because the product wasn't as advertised. As guaranteed by EU law.

Good lord, there is a gulf here with understanding what constitutes false advertising.

If you buy No Man's Sky and instead get 2 seasons of Cory in the House it's False Advertising.

If you buy No Man's Sky and get a game which is lacking features from its WIP Demo reel then its kind of a dick move but not a breach of consumer rights. Unless the page says outright "You can engage in multiplayer with your friends!" then, yeah, false advertising.

I'm still baffled everyone was religiously following the previews enough to know every feature ever breathed about but not enough to read launch day reviews and temper their expectations.

 

[MrFalconfly]

christ this got long. snip

The advertisment for No Man's Sky showcased features that weren't part of the end product.

Ergo, false advertising.

If you have a product that does A, and you advertise it as doing A and B, and I then buy it because I expect it can do A and B, that is false advertisement. It doesn't matter if feature B is "work in progress". Feature B is featured in the advertisment, so I expect it to be ready when I buy it.

Also, I refer back to the words "you also have the right to cancel and return your order within 14 days, for any reason and with no justification."

I actually don't need justification.

I just need to want to return the thing, and that's enough for me to get a refund.

EDIT:
I mean, the false advetisement justification could mean that the game isn't like what was presented during the pre-animated cutscenes.

EDIT:EDIT:
Also, the "breach of consumer rights" is the refusal of a refund.

As an EU citizen I'm guaranteed a 14 day refund period.

That means I have 336 hours of ownership (whether it just sits there, or I play it non-stop for that period is irrelevant) before the refund deadline runs out, not 2.

 

[The Enquirer]

Wow, this game just keeps getting worse all the time.

That or the behaviour of entitled customers. My guess lies with the latter.

In a game which sold itself on this colossal universe with an endless supply of things to do I don't see how customers wanting to play for more than 2 hours to see if the game's worth its price is particularly entitled. The fact people are defending a policy which simply doesn't work for a lot of games (both large open world games like NMS and games which are short enough to be completed in under 2 hours) purely because it's better than what Steam had before, i.e. sod all, kind of blows my mind. Are so many people that beholden to Valve that they'd rather brush off their terrible customer service as "customer entitlement" instead of asking for better?

I have no stake either way in this NMS debacle (if anything I'd prefer people got burned by this to help change this ridiculous pre-order generation we have) but this incident really highlights one of Steam's biggest shortcomings and it really shows how few f's they give any more about customer satisfaction that they refuse to address it at all.

Well, considering that Steam also operates within the EU, let's look at what the EU law says about this.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm
Under EU rules, a trader must repair, replace, reduce the price or give you a refund if goods you bought turn out to be faulty or do not look or work as advertised.

If you bought a good or a service online or outside of a shop (by telephone, mail order, from a door-to-door salesperson), you also have the right to cancel and return your order within 14 days, for any reason and with no justification.

Hm. Nothing about playing it for 2 hours.

Actually, if we go as far, as to say that No Man's Sky was "faulty", then it actually expands the right of refund to 2 years.

Free of charge, 2-year guarantee (legal guarantee)

Under EU rules you always have the right to a minimum 2-year guarantee at no cost.

This 2-year guarantee is your minimum right. National rules in your country may give you extra protection: however, any deviation from EU rules must always be in the consumer's best interest.

If goods you bought anywhere in the EU turn out to be faulty or do not look or work as advertised, the seller must repair or replace them free of charge or give you a price reduction or a full refund.

As a general rule, you will only be able to ask for a partial or full refund when it is not possible to repair or replace the goods.

However, I'll be fine with having the limit at 336 hours, or 14 days, simply because the product wasn't as advertised. As guaranteed by EU law.

Good lord, there is a gulf here with understanding what constitutes false advertising.

If you buy No Man's Sky and instead get 2 seasons of Cory in the House it's False Advertising.

If you buy No Man's Sky and get a game which is lacking features from its WIP Demo reel then its kind of a dick move but not a breach of consumer rights. Unless the page says outright "You can engage in multiplayer with your friends!" then, yeah, false advertising.

I'm still baffled everyone was religiously following the previews enough to know every feature ever breathed about but not enough to read launch day reviews and temper their expectations.

They advertised the game with certain features in it on the store page in videos on said page, with no disclaimer anywhere that said features would not be in the game. It wasn't an opinion such as "the best space game you'll ever play". It wasn't them being vague about features in the game and giving themselves legal wiggle room. It was and is false advertising.

This is coming from someone who didn't buy it and has no personal vestment in whether or not people get refunds or not. While personally I think Sean Murray is a deceptive piece of crap and steam should offer refunds given the circumstances, it is their refund policy that is written out clearly.

Ironically enough had EA published the game this is one problem that wouldn't have happened and normally they fuck everything up but their return policy is better.

 

[thepyrethatburns]

*Shrug* That's what happens when the industry moves to download-only and gamers(as a whole) enthusiastically support such a move. Sometimes you'll get burned and won't even have a copy that you can sell.

Seeing as you could, at best, only get an exchange for a physical copy after opening it from most of the larger retailers (that flimsy plastic wrap is apparently worth a lot), even if you had the opportunity to resell the game, what happens if the game is a flaming pile of trash? Who's buying that? I'm not going to pretend that things were all roses in the past. It's just advocating for another form of capitalist control.

You'd be surprised at how many times that I did get a refund. This was because:

1) My size and willingness to confront. I don't like to admit the size issue because it does undermine my argument but I'm willing to bet being 6'2-3 barefoot probably helped. Still, even if you're not looming over people, I'm still willing to bet that, if you were firm but polite and you didn't make a habit of it, you would find a lot of managers willing to give you full store credit for ANYTHING in the store.

2) Lack of competition. If you have a problem with the game, what are you going to do now? Gamers, being addicts, aren't going to quit gaming so there's no threat of losing your audience. With PC games, you really only have Steam. (I'm a big fan of GOG myself but I'm not going to pretend that they're a serious threat to Steam.)

You can't on-sell PC software anymore anyway - it's been that way for well over a decade.

Even if I was somehow this unique snowflake that was able to get refunds and nobody else could, that kind of undermines the whole argument if Steam is offering a two-hour refund instead of no refund.

In the end, my original statement is still a valid one. Obviously, it's too late for PC gaming. If you have a No Man's Sky or a Mighty No. 9 (a game that isn't as bad as people make it out to be but is still a pretty average Mega Man knockoff), the only thing that you can do is use it as a learning experience. It is something for the console gamers to consider given how many people try to convince them that Download-only is the way to go.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

Perhaps if games had to actually exist before becoming financially viable we wouldn't be in this situation so often. Fuck yes I'm victim blaming the consumers here.

I'm not really sure how to feel about all this. On one hand, Sean Murry has well and truly made my list of slimy PR guys, and I have no love the any of the companies involved here. But on the other hand, I can bring myself to feel neither sympathy nor joy for the misfortune of those who were sucked up into the hype cyclone and spat out the other side. All I can do is shake my head and mutter to myself in impotent rage, "damn you. Damn you all. This is your fault; if you weren't so quick to throw fistfuls of cash at the developers on hype alone and instead waited to see if it was worth buying then we wouldn't be in this situation. But no, you had to make the game a financial success before it was even released."

Now, I want to stress yet again that I'm not absolving the developers of guilt here, just saying, if people weren't so keen to by snake oil there wouldn't be so many snake oil salesmen around, and perhaps their presence ought to make everyone a bit more suspicious when making future purchases.