Stories, real stories?

[fulano]

I was sitting reading the latest silly rant by Yahtzee(Extra Punctuation: Scribblenauts) when I came up to a genuinely interesting quote of his:

If you want to have a linear story - and you will if you have any kind of story, because non-linear stories don't and will never exist no matter what anyone tells you - then any freedom you give the player to mess about and do side-quests will distract from the pacing.

I mean, really? What do you guys think?

According to you what constitutes a story? A real one, something that takes the next step and can become actual plot.

I for one think that Yahtzee's purported view is for silly people who need to be led by the hand(not to mention it lends itself to huge constraints on autonomy--the whole "you understand what we want you to understand thing"). How many times has somebody had much more fun or derived something better from playing made-up scenarios that have nothing to do with a game's plot even though they are playing games? Children can do it easily, why can't we? Or how many insane or deluded individuals make out their own plots in their heads and carry out their life in la-la land clashing against a world that is not as they see it--ranging from nutbags to one side of a couple who can't bear him/herself to deal with the fact that his/her sinificant other isn't the right one?

It's already been done before, but the fact remains that videogames have failed to act as a proper catalyst for it so far. That doesn't mean it is an impossibility. Yahtzee takes the failures of one format of storytelling and generalizes it.

If anything, I think it is entirely possible to derive meaningful plot and narrative completely on our own within certain constraints such as pre-set context; be it in videogames, or weird experimental books(Rayuela, anyone? You can also pick and choose in that thing beyond what Cortazar said the jumping chapters' order was).

If you can delude yourself you are on the right path to tell yourself stories.

Any thoughts?

P.S: I posted this here as I don't think it exactly fits within the constraints of the games forum.

 

[siege_1302]

I'm curious as to what the definition of a non-linear story in this case is. If we have a clear definition it ought to make it easier to think about whether or not it's possible.

 

[fulano]

I'm curious as to what the definition of a non-linear story in this case is. If we have a clear definition it ought to make it easier to think about whether or not it's possible.

Well, I've seen it stated before that story is something that happens while plot is something that moves the narrative forward.

Taking that as valid, We could make a hell of a lot of non-linear stories but they wouldn't make much sense and would probably make up for bad plots, but with good care we could care non-linear plots, I think.

 

[ShadowPen]

I remember a few years back, when they rereleased the Dragonquest and Final Fantasy games, you know, the ones where they told you NOTHING about where to go and what to do. Que the people complaining about how hard the game was because it didn't hold your hand. Humorously enough, this was after the same people complained that modern RPGs tell you Exactly where to go.

Perfect example of how you can't please everybody.

But every time I hear someone complain about linearity, I think of someone giving a book report. "I read Lord of the Rings, and I gotta tell you, it sucked. You have to do EVERYthing the book says, no time to look around the Shire or anything, no unlockables when you beat it, and no alternate endings at all. Save yourself the time and read (Obscure choose-your-own-adventure here) instead." And then I just laugh until I realize how plausible that situation is becoming.

 

[ajb924]

Look at The World Ends With You. That is an amazing story. Look at that, and study how to write one. I understand it's harder to do more than sit on your ass and shit out decent gameplay, but a story is something i really appreciate

 

[fulano]

Look at The World Ends With You. That is an amazing story. Look at that, and study how to write one. I understand it's harder to do more than sit on your ass and shit out decent gameplay, but a story is something i really appreciate

But whether or not you appreciate it depends on what? On what you were told or on whattever was inside your noggin that made the story matter to you?

Take Chrono Trigger for example, it did exactly that. It was a non-linear story whose flow could go one way or the other but always within certain constrictions, and it still rocked. It made sense from a gameplay standpoint and from a plot standpoint. And it was up to the player to go arranging the damn thing. Granted, the plot was in fact a series of permutations but, still, it was a great first step. It didn't hold your hand.

Another example would have to be Famito Ueda's Shadow of The Colossus, where the context of the story is pre-set; you are not told what happened to the chick, how Wander came to know about the forbidden land, or what is it exactly that she means to him. But you derive a very basic plot in your head from the sheer enormity of the things that you are tasked with. Again, another right step in the right direction, but still short from being a massive success in pioneering a distinct format of storytelling.

Also, we could take a look at ergodic literature and see how things go over there, and figure out how it is that we derive meaning from them.

 

[ajb924]

Look at The World Ends With You. That is an amazing story. Look at that, and study how to write one. I understand it's harder to do more than sit on your ass and shit out decent gameplay, but a story is something i really appreciate

But whether or not you appreciate it depends on what? On what you were told or on whattever was inside your noggin that made the story matter to you?

Take Chrono Trigger for example, it did exactly that. It was a non-linear story whose flow could go one way or the other but always within certain constrictions, and it still rocked. It made sense from a gameplay standpoint and from a plot standpoint. And it was up to the player to go arranging the damn thing. Granted, the plot was in fact a series of permutations but, still, it was a great first step. It didn't hold your hand.

Another example would have to be Famito Ueda's Shadow of The Colossus, where the context of the story is pre-set; you are not told what happened to the chick, how Wander came to know about the forbidden land, or what is it exactly that she means to him. But you derive a very basic plot in your head from the sheer enormity of the things that you are tasked with. Again, another right step in the right direction, but still short from being a massive success in pioneering a distinct format of storytelling.

Also, we could take a look at ergodic literature and see how things go over there, and figure out how it is that we derive meaning from them.

Chrono Trigger is another great example! I personally love the game. And it does have a good story, but it's a bit... Predictable.... Not a really bad thing, but come on... Main guy dies, bad guy is good, good guy come back, save world. TWEWY Did something NEW to me. Thats what caught me.
In a story i look for a good beginning, middle, end, and maybe an unexpected twist. I also want it to be original. I', not too picky, but even Chrono Trigger isn't really open You can make your own decisions, but the main thing is still going to happen. The levels are all the same no matter what. So, in my book it's linear. Game, set, match.

 

[axia777]

Bump to get rid of spam from page 1....

 

[fulano]

Look at The World Ends With You. That is an amazing story. Look at that, and study how to write one. I understand it's harder to do more than sit on your ass and shit out decent gameplay, but a story is something i really appreciate

But whether or not you appreciate it depends on what? On what you were told or on whattever was inside your noggin that made the story matter to you?

Take Chrono Trigger for example, it did exactly that. It was a non-linear story whose flow could go one way or the other but always within certain constrictions, and it still rocked. It made sense from a gameplay standpoint and from a plot standpoint. And it was up to the player to go arranging the damn thing. Granted, the plot was in fact a series of permutations but, still, it was a great first step. It didn't hold your hand.

Another example would have to be Famito Ueda's Shadow of The Colossus, where the context of the story is pre-set; you are not told what happened to the chick, how Wander came to know about the forbidden land, or what is it exactly that she means to him. But you derive a very basic plot in your head from the sheer enormity of the things that you are tasked with. Again, another right step in the right direction, but still short from being a massive success in pioneering a distinct format of storytelling.

Also, we could take a look at ergodic literature and see how things go over there, and figure out how it is that we derive meaning from them.

Chrono Trigger is another great example! I personally love the game. And it does have a good story, but it's a bit... Predictable.... Not a really bad thing, but come on... Main guy dies, bad guy is good, good guy come back, save world. TWEWY Did something NEW to me. Thats what caught me.
In a story i look for a good beginning, middle, end, and maybe an unexpected twist. I also want it to be original. I', not too picky, but even Chrono Trigger isn't really open You can make your own decisions, but the main thing is still going to happen. The levels are all the same no matter what. So, in my book it's linear. Game, set, match.

Well, if you looked at it directly, Chrono Trigger's story isn't entirely linear at all. Sure, there are waypoints, but that's it. For example, Chrono dies and he can stay dead so you can go and finish the game that way, Magus can either join you or you can kill him, you can save the future or leave it screwed up forever. Hell, You can even "defeat" Lavos before 1999 in new game+(during the Zeal times). You can also fuck up the timeline entirely that Frog ends up getting his rocks off with the queen of his time, effectively making Marle his descendant(mind you, it's a joke ending). The plot still moves in a preset path but the "dramatic waypoints" that are scattered all around, are still there, and they bend the storyline somewhat. You have a flow that varies but within a pre-set context.

Think about it as a road that forks; you still start in one place and end in another--let's call it point A and point B, but in the middle is where things get interesting. But also, you can jump to point B pretty much freely once you beat the game.

P.S: By linear I understand as just that--linear as in a linear function, whereas I see Chrono Trigger's plot more as an oscillating one.

But it stories in videogames still fall short of certain expectations that, for example, ergodic literature gets right. For example Raymond Queneau?s Hundred Thousand Billion Poems that while still permutations, they are still regarded as something that can be relevant to its audience. Also worth mentioning would have to be Georges Perec's La Vie mode d'emploi(Life: A User's Manual), and also(to some extent) Mark Z. Danielewski's House of Leaves or Only Revolutions, the last two as cases where the context of the story isn't even clear and things are left up to the audience.

 

[Pimppeter2]

I dunno. I thought Oblivion did it pretty well. Save the first couple of quests

 

[Ryuk2]

Most games have linear stories, like when you have to kill one bad guy, then another bad guy, like Hitman or Assassins Creed. Or the horror ones, they give you an objective and the whole game is just you going and finding other monsters, sometimes meting other people - Doom 3, Dead space e.t.c.
There is nothing wrong with them.
But there can be non-linear games, where you start of by talking to you grandfather in a bar/exploring a city and latter on the game your fighting in space.
If the plot twists and changes itself over and over again, that's not a linear plot.

 

[ajb924]

Look at The World Ends With You. That is an amazing story. Look at that, and study how to write one. I understand it's harder to do more than sit on your ass and shit out decent gameplay, but a story is something i really appreciate

But whether or not you appreciate it depends on what? On what you were told or on whattever was inside your noggin that made the story matter to you?

Take Chrono Trigger for example, it did exactly that. It was a non-linear story whose flow could go one way or the other but always within certain constrictions, and it still rocked. It made sense from a gameplay standpoint and from a plot standpoint. And it was up to the player to go arranging the damn thing. Granted, the plot was in fact a series of permutations but, still, it was a great first step. It didn't hold your hand.

Another example would have to be Famito Ueda's Shadow of The Colossus, where the context of the story is pre-set; you are not told what happened to the chick, how Wander came to know about the forbidden land, or what is it exactly that she means to him. But you derive a very basic plot in your head from the sheer enormity of the things that you are tasked with. Again, another right step in the right direction, but still short from being a massive success in pioneering a distinct format of storytelling.

Also, we could take a look at ergodic literature and see how things go over there, and figure out how it is that we derive meaning from them.

Chrono Trigger is another great example! I personally love the game. And it does have a good story, but it's a bit... Predictable.... Not a really bad thing, but come on... Main guy dies, bad guy is good, good guy come back, save world. TWEWY Did something NEW to me. Thats what caught me.
In a story i look for a good beginning, middle, end, and maybe an unexpected twist. I also want it to be original. I', not too picky, but even Chrono Trigger isn't really open You can make your own decisions, but the main thing is still going to happen. The levels are all the same no matter what. So, in my book it's linear. Game, set, match.

Well, if you looked at it directly, Chrono Trigger's story isn't entirely linear at all. Sure, there are waypoints, but that's it. For example, Chrono dies and he can stay dead so you can go and finish the game that way, Magus can either join you or you can kill him, you can save the future or leave it screwed up forever. Hell, You can even "defeat" Lavos before 1999 in new game+(during the Zeal times). You can also fuck up the timeline entirely that Frog ends up getting his rocks off with the queen of his time, effectively making Marle his descendant(mind you, it's a joke ending). The plot still moves in a preset path but the "dramatic waypoints" that are scattered all around, are still there, and they bend the storyline somewhat. You have a flow that varies but within a pre-set context.

Think about it as a road that forks; you still start in one place and end in another--let's call it point A and point B, but in the middle is where things get interesting. But also, you can jump to point B pretty much freely once you beat the game.

P.S: By linear I understand as just that--linear as in a linear function, whereas I see Chrono Trigger's plot more as an oscillating one.

But it stories in videogames still fall short of certain expectations that, for example, ergodic literature gets right. For example Raymond Queneau?s Hundred Thousand Billion Poems that while still permutations, they are still regarded as something that can be relevant to its audience. Also worth mentioning would have to be Georges Perec's La Vie mode d'emploi(Life: A User's Manual), and also(to some extent) Mark Z. Danielewski's House of Leaves or Only Revolutions, the last two as cases where the context of the story isn't even clear and things are left up to the audience.

DAMMIT! Now i need to replay the game.... Ten times... Fuck. Well, I get where your coming from now.