Stormcloaks are too mainstream.

[SajuukKhar]

We would not surrender our people and our land, so we did what we knew how to do; we fought back without the Empire being in the way.

And we won.

Actually, the Redguards only stalemated the AD, and then the AD figured it wasn't worth their time and agreed to a truce anyways.

The Redguards did not win militarily against the AD, they only tied the AD, anmd even then they only stalemated the AD because they had the home field advantage.

 

[Nomanslander]

Yeah, and the Empire has become a bunch of bureaucratic impotent Aldmeri ass kissers. Or another words, if war was to break out, the last thing you would want on your side is a leadership afraid to go to war and willing to sell their own countrymen to make sure that didn't happen.

Yes, Ulfric Stormcloak is a racist asshole. But in times of war, I'd rather have someone like him giving orders than that...miserable emperor who was so willing to leave himself open for an assassination.

If you look at history, in times of war, even against impossible odds, good leadership goes a long way. And part of me thinks that Skyrim would have less chance to survive an Aldmeri invasion if it was still apart of the Empire taking instructions from their bad leadership compared to being a separate nation.

Ulfric is a seasoned guerrilla fighter that's made a career waging war against impossible odds. And in war time that's what counts.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Even if that is the case, they did better than the Empire did. They had home field advantage in Cyrodil too.

You don't see Thalmor agents running around openly in Sentinel, after all....

Actually The empire stalemated the AD also.

The Empire signed the WGC because After the battle of the Red Ring The Empire had firmly defeated The Thalmor in Cyordiil, but at the cost of basically destroying themes also.

The Empire and Thalmor had pretty much equal forces, which is to say none, but the Thalmor had the advantage, in that their lands had not been touched by the war, while Cyrodiil on the other hand was destroyed.

The Empire only had two options at the end of the war
1. Continue what was ultimately a stalemated war, that they would eventually lose because The Thalmor had the advantage of resources. which would be suicide for The Empire.
2. They could suck it up and take it up the ass from The Thalmor for awhile while they rebuilt and got themselves into a position where they could march on Alinor and destroy The Thalmor permanently.

The thalmor are an evil on the level of Hitler, there is no reasoning with them, you cant actually make them stop without anything less then burning them out of existence. The Thalmor cannot be beaten until someone can march on Alinor, and purge them as they seek to do to mankind, and neither the Empire, the Redguards, or the Stormcloacks could do that.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Results weren't the same, hoss.

Treaty of Stros M'kai; All Aldmeri GTFO of Hammerfell and don't come back, or get bitchslapped again.

White Gold Concordat; We'll ban the god you said to ban, AND your gestapo can do whatever they want in our lands.

Yea, not equal outcomes there.

The outcome was only unequal because The Thalmor don't consider the Redguards a big enough threat to continue fighting them.

the Redguards only got what they did because The Thalmor consider the Empire a bigger threat, and The empire only agreed to what it did because they knew The thalmor would dog them forever.

At least the Redguards got to keep their land free of Thalmor goons.

At the cost of splintering humanity apart.

The AD was ale to beat the combined might of The Empire, the greatest army on Tamriel, what happens if The Empire falls apart?

Cyrodiil becomes a warring mass of kingdoms, Skyrim itself would go to war for similar reasons as Ulfric started the current war, the Breton kings, who are already backstabbing murderers who try to kill each other as is would become disorganized, and the redguards would start thier endless crows vs forbears civil wars that they constantly have.

Which leaves humanity as a whole disorganized, un-unfied, and easy prey for the thalmor to destroy.

The Redguards fighting for Hammerfell isn't brave, or heroic, its idoicy defined. they don't look at the long term goal, they care more about personal glory now, then actually having the ability to stand against the full might of the AD once it gets its shit back together.

Standing up for what you believe in means nothing if you and everyone you know gets killed, it just means your actions were meaningless.

The Redguards and the Stormcloaks are possibly the biggest idiots on Tamriel because they refuse to look at the big picture, they refuse to look at how their actions affect Tamriel as a whole, and its ability to stand up against a treat that seeks to purge them from possibility itself.

The AD beat The empire, are you really so naive to think that the Redguards, or the Stormcloaks, could even match the raw power of a restocked AD?

Especially considering that both Hammerfell, and skyrim, are dependent on Cyrodiil for food.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Becuase it didn't agree to let genocidal elves take half of their homeland? Remember, even the Empire rejected that term of the Concordat when it was first proposed.

It was actually the southern coast of Hammerfell, not the entire southern half, and the empire originally rejected ALL terms of the EGC.

It already has.

Besides losing Hammerfell, which was a brilliant strategical move on their part, because it let the Redguards kill some more AD, and the Empire knows that even if the Redguards dislike them, given the chance to fight the AD during the next war, the Redguard warrior pride will compel them to hellp The Empire, they really haven't.

Yes, it's complete idiocy to fight to keep a genocidal army from occupying your home turf and likely systematically putting your loved ones to death.

Good job, you just called the jewish guerillas in Warsaw idiots.

Are you listening to yourself?!

No, I never said fighting a genocidal army is stupid, I said its stupid when doing so at that moment means you will lose.

The Jewest guerrillas in warsaw is such an entirely different situation that its laughable.

Once again, all this high talk about standing tall against the AD when the actual moves being taken is...>NOTHING.

Except constantly stonewalling Thalmor justiciars from doing their jobs, and massing all of The Empire's armies at the border of the AD.

But they weren't. The Redguard drove them out. They weren't wiped out.

Again, think more then two seconds into the future, the Redguards drove out the AD now, but when the AD regains its strength, the strength that beat the Empire originally, the Redguards will lose because the Redguards are weaker then the Empire, so they will be killed.

Nicely said while ignoring the Empire's actions, which are direct collaboration. Yea, Ulfic and the Redguard are foolish for fighting, but apparently the Empire is super genius for collorborating and thinking the AD will be nice and let them live.

I've said this to every Empire loyalist, show me ANYWHERE, ANY DIALOGUE, ANY DOCUMENT, that says that the Empire is organizing a counter-attack.

Tullius tells you at least once that The Empire is massing all of its armies on the border of the AD, which is why he is unable to get reinforcements for the civil war in Skyrim, and Tullius tells you after the civil war is done, that there are plans in the works to act against the Dominion because both sides know war is enviable.

On top of that there's the fact The Empire lets local kings/jarls frequently hinder or ignore Thalmor requests, such as the Jarl of Markarth not lifting a finger to help that Thalmor guy prove the skald of the city is a Talos worshiper.

And on top of that, The Empire marginalized The Thalmor presence in their lands by giving them the most remote, and out of the way, forts to occupy, keeping them away from most major population centers.

Just to name a few.

Are you naive enough to think that being nice to the AD and collaborating with them will spare you? Because the Empire is. There is no counter attack in the works. There is no secret plan to backstab the AD. NOTHING. All the EMpire has done is be a puppet.

that is factually wrong, many high ranking military NPcs in the Leigon will mention that both sides know another war is coming, and that The Empire will be ready this time.

Hammerfell isn't landlocked, genius. Fishing. Ever heard of it?

fishing cant support the entirety of Hammerfells population, and even if it did only being able to eat fish is terrible for peoepls health.

On top of that the Navy of the AD would make quick work out of any Redguard vessel.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Exact quote? I did the Empire campaign on an alt, and never got that conversation with Tully.

Dragonborn: "Why won't the Emperor send more reinforcements?"

Tullius: "Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. an interlude before the main event against The Thalmor resumes."

The dialog is part of MQ302, the part of the Main quest that deals with the peace counsel at High Hrothgar, so if you did the civil war before that part of the MQ, and thus skipped the peace counsel, you won't see it.

Taken directly from the CK.

Then why didn't they when they fought the Redguard after the Empire cut them off? The AD's navy got their assess handed to them.

Because snubbing the Thalmor's requests =/= the same as actively fighting them in war.

The Redguards were actively killing The Thalmor, and by the rules of the WGC the Empire had to force them to stop, or go back to war, and The Empire couldn't afford to go back to war then because they hadn't had time to rebuild.

The Empire letting kings/jarls snub The Thalmor's requests isn't a real violation of the WGC, its just delaying them with BS excuses so they can't get stuff done.

 

[PhunkyPhazon]

Using just *my* values, I would stay completely neutral in the conflict. But the last time I played it, I joined the Stormcloaks. Not because of any philosophical reasons or anything, but because I was simply getting into character =P I mean you can't unjustly arrest someone and murder their best friend without expecting some repercussions, now can you?

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Hmmm, an Elder Scrolls thread with Sajuukhar arguing with another person. What else is new? Oh, this one is also a necro'ed thread. That's like a double bonus.

My current Playthrough, I'm playing with Warzones Mod and butchering any battle I come across. No survivors on either side.

 

[SlaveNumber23]

Well the Imperials were planning on beheading you at the start of the game, had they not been interrupted by a giant fire breathing dragon they surely would have gone through with this happily. Sure, you can say that it was just the Captain being a ***** beheading you anyway even though you weren't on the list but none of the other Imperials even gave so much as a mutter under their breath against this injustice. I can see why this would give a lot of people a bias against the Imperials.

Also, I'm pretty sure that a lot of people didn't pay enough attention to be able to weigh the lore-wise benefits of each faction against each other. Instead just settling for more shallow reasons to pick the Stormcloaks: badass name, badass bear armor, their leader strolled up to the king and 'shouted him apart'... what a badass etc. I know that on my first playthrough I didn't pay enough attention to the lore to be able to make a reasonable judgement and just settled for the Stormcloaks because they are pretty damn badass.

I'm not sure of how much of an influence this would have but the Stormcloaks are rebels fighting against the established 'tyrannical and oppressive' power and I've noticed that its considered pretty cool and popular to rebel and 'fuck the system' etc.

 

[Judgment90]

The only thing that disappointed me was that there were no quests to destroy the Thalmor for the Stormcloaks.