strongly considering getting a MAC. help me.

Chased

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Cowabungaa said:
I know that, but you can easily look up which hardware that is, buy it yourself for way less than what Apple makes you pay and then install OSX. That way you still have a "Mac" but for half the price. That's what I was trying to say.
What I'm trying to say is that success rate of building a Hackintosh is very slim. Even if you have the right hardware there's loads of issues with drivers, especially with Bluetooth, track pads and keyboards not working. A lot of time people end up having to buy more hardware than they initially intended.

Also note that you CAN NOT use Bootcamp on a Hackintosh to duel boot into Windows and the process itself is illegal.

http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12546&Itemid=8

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/04/six-months-with-a-hackintosh-netbook-it-aint-pretty/

http://techie-buzz.com/gadgets-news/hackintosh.html
 

Cowabungaa

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Chased said:
Cowabungaa said:
I know that, but you can easily look up which hardware that is, buy it yourself for way less than what Apple makes you pay and then install OSX. That way you still have a "Mac" but for half the price. That's what I was trying to say.
What I'm trying to say is that success rate is very slim of building a Hackintosh. Even if you have the right hardware there's loads of issues with drivers, especially with Bluetooth, track pads and keyboards not working. A lot of times people end up having to buy more hardware than they initially intended.

Also note that you CAN NOT use Bootcamp on a Hackintosh to duel boot into Windows.
Really? Well, that only makes me hate Apple even more, making OSX so horribly limited.

Now, let me once again post this disclaimer;
It's not like I hate OSX itself. I've used it, if sporadically, before, and it doesn't seem to be bad or anything. It's just another OS as far as I can see, not that insanely different from Windows. It's not like I do anything crazy with an OS, be it OSX, Windows or Linux. I just detest Apple as a business.
 

Chased

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Cowabungaa said:
Really? Well, that only makes me hate Apple even more, making OSX so horribly limited.
I actually wholeheartedly agree and regret getting a Macbook. I'm just trying to steer people away from building a Hackintosh because it will probably end up costing them more than an average Mac.

The thing I dislike most about Apple is their attitude and overall lack of support towards gaming.
 

AlphaLackey

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thethingthatlurks said:
Cool, that makes a bit more sense. I studied applied math as an undergrad, and went on to theoretical work in science in grad school. I'm quite curious what sort of algorithm takes over 100 trillion iterations before reaching convergence? It's really the iterations that get me, not some astronomical number of operations. I plan to work in quantum chemistry, and while billions (or trillions) of operations are perfectly normal in high accuracy methods for large systems, I think only a few (tens-hundreds) thousand iterations are typically required.
Consider a standard Texas Hold'em based casino game like "Texas Hold'em Bonus".

To figure out the house advantage, you need to iterate through every possible hand that can be played. So, you basically wind up iterating through the entire game space, which is:

* You get two hole cards (52 * 51 / (2 * 1) = 1,326)
* Three cards come on the flop (50 * 49 * 48 / (3 * 2 * 1) = 19,600)
* A fourth card comes on the turn (47)
* A fifth card comes on the river (46)
* You then see what the dealer's hole cards are (45 * 44 / (2 * 1) = 990)

The total gamespace is 1,326 * 19,600 * 47 * 46 * 990 = 55,627,620,048,000

The problem is, because there's four strategy decisions during the course of the hand, you really can't do such calculations by random sampling. You'd basically have to play a "slice" of about 10^9 iterations at random and optimize for strategy just to get the expectation of one starting hand accurate to about 0.01%, which is generally the tolerance wanted. You would have to go a long time, a lot longer than 10^6 rounds, to get a similar accuracy.

Of course, there are reflections (i.e. if you start with the ace-king of spades, your chances of winning are the same as if you start with the ace-king of clubs) and the number of iterations winds up being about 7-8% of that.

Aside from that, why is it necessary to store intermediate steps? My lectures sadly never really covered that problem (my prof assigned "think about how you could do it WITHOUT storing stuff" as part of a hw once).
Almost always good advice. However, consider a very specific problem: How do you convert an array of seven integers into an integer value that represents the best five card poker hand that could be made from those seven cards.

Well, the first thing you might think is sort it, then count the number of cards of each rank, then check for five of a suit, bla bla bla. For something you're going to repeat 10^12 times or so, that's way too slow. Basically, I have to make a giant lookup table, storing one 32-bit integer (I have to encode the overall hand rank [straight, flush etc.] as well as an ordinal within that rank) for each possible hand. I do all this in advance, then load it from a file at the start of the run into a giant lookup table. Then, when I have the array of seven cards, for only the cost of seven nested array lookups, I can get the answer. One thread can look up about 11 million poker hands a second doing it this way.

Now, for a seven card poker hand, you're only looking at (52! / (45! * 7!)) = 133,784,560 entries or so, times 4 bytes per entry, that's only about 535 MB. Granted, there's some trimming done before hand, but it's on the order of that size

But, in a game like Chinese Poker or bridge, where the player gets 13 cards in his hand, you're looking at (52! / (39! * 13!)) = 635,013,559,600 ( * 4 bytes = ~2.4 TB) for that intermediate table before doing some trimming. I can get it to about 600 GB though, but again, reading four bites from a random access file on an SSD blows away any heuristic algorithm.

Still seems like you got suckered though. If raw power is all you required, couldn't you simply have set up a server?
Here's the first thing that google spit up: http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/power/hardware/775/index.html#soai
They sadly don't publish the price (presumably to not scare away potential customers), but that would still have been something I would consider before getting a $9000 mac.
Yes, but I also wanted a Mac :) That has to be worth something, right?

Now those last points:
A check up is not a medical procedure. Literally anybody can do as well a job as a real MD. Well, anybody who knows what those blood pressure numbers mean anyway. Bad example. How about an architect building a home over a construction crew?
How about getting a prostate exam from a gynecologist? :)

I've got a 23" (or possibly 23.5", don't remember) LED I picked up for 150euros. No, those things are not expensive, and I really can't complain about picture quality.
Does it have camera and microphone built in?
 

fix-the-spade

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THAC0 said:
Help? comments? Questions? opinions?
lacktheknack said:
I'd only recommend Macs to high-output artistic users. If you're going to be writing a LOT, then go for it.
As a work tool the MAC is a joke, in the last two years Apple have pretty much removed everything that it used to have going for it.
<spoiler=The software>

The biggest problem is one of compatability, the latest OSX version (Lion) either disables or is incompatible with almost all the major software packages and their plugins. They've gone for a more iOS styled set up and the attitude has been that if software that worked on Snow Leopard doesn't work on Lion, it's not their problem.

More importantly for a small scale use the packaged software has been cut down and neutered massively, unless you go out and buy a third party software package (Read: Adobe Design CS or Acrobat) you can't desktop publish easily on a Mac anymore. Even something as simple as creating a pdf is suddenly a pain in the ass.

For high end uses, outside of Adobe and Corel very few companies seem to be bothering with Apple anymore, 3DS max is the industry standard for 3D work in games and movies, it doesn't even come in a Mac version. More and more plug ins for Adobe CS suite are being released as Windows only too, Apple's tendency to chop all the features with every version and make you buy them again has alienated the professional market.


Apples used to be custom pcb based high end machines, now internally they're low-mid range Nvidia/intel/AMD based. The give away should be that lots of part in them are marked M for mobile, as in laptop components.
A £1200 PC is faster than the very best iMac you can buy.

More importantly the quality of Mac screens has gone down the toilet. They used to be amazing quality with extremely accurate colour reproduction. The current screens are still the same resolution as older units (2560x1440) but the quality is gone from the panels. Color repro is noticably worse and the anti glare coatings on the screen seem to have vanished. Dell and Hasro make the best monitors at the moment (Dell Ultrasharp monitors are pure eye sex).

Plugging in external hardware has always been a hit and miss affair too, it's not getting any better in that respect. In fact it seems to be getting worse, Apple haven't gotten onto USB3 yet, which presents a problem if you have anything that needs it.



Seriously, buy a PC, if you want Mac style convienience an all in one PC will work just fine.

A relatively cheap Windows 7 desktop (or even laptop) will handle what you want to do just fine. Team it u with a mid range 1080p (IPS panel, not TN) monitor and you will have something that is a match for most of the products in the Mac range. It will be asier and cheaper to live with/upgrade/repair when the need comes as well.
 

fix-the-spade

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Cowabungaa said:
I purchased a top end Mac Pro - dual hexacore, 16GB RAM, 27" LED monitor and 1GB solid state drive. Close to $9k.
Signa said:
Given that it was a Mac, I'd say so.
I'm a come rushing to his defense.

He bought a Mac Pro, as in a workstation. They have about as much in common with an iMac as a Mercedes A-Class does with the MGP-02 Formula 1 car, same name on the front, different beast altogether (with two six core Xeon processors in it gaming will be the last of it's troubles...).

They're about the most desirable product Apple make, although since GPPUS like the Quadro an Tesla became available for PC and windows they aren't as untouchable as they used to be. Still a very nice machine though.
 

AlphaLackey

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fix-the-spade said:
Cowabungaa said:
I purchased a top end Mac Pro - dual hexacore, 16GB RAM, 27" LED monitor and 1GB solid state drive. Close to $9k.
Signa said:
Given that it was a Mac, I'd say so.
I'm a come rushing to his defense.

He bought a Mac Pro, as in a workstation. They have about as much in common with an iMac as a Mercedes A-Class does with the MGP-02 Formula 1 car, same name on the front, different beast altogether (with two six core Xeon processors in it gaming will be the last of it's troubles...).

They're about the most desirable product Apple make, although since GPPUS like the Quadro an Tesla became available for PC and windows they aren't as untouchable as they used to be. Still a very nice machine though.
To be fair, that's my Mac Pro that Cowabunga has accidentally taken credit for. Lousy quote blocks. But yes, the worst part about running games is I have to boot in Windows 7 to do it :p Coincidentally, Blizzard and Valve are rapidly becoming my two favorite big studios for their dedication to bilingual gaming.

fix-the-spade said:
As a work tool the MAC is a joke, in the last two years Apple have pretty much removed everything that it used to have going for it.
Not entirely, sir. As I mentioned above, starting with Lion (10.7), high-performance parallel programming using the newly-implented Mac-native GCD library yields slightly better performance than OpenMP and is miles easier to implement. The .NET 4.0 Parallel libraries (allegedly 'simplifying' the parallel programming process) were harder to use and nowhere near as effective.
 

Hoplon

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thethingthatlurks said:
If raw power is all you required, couldn't you simply have set up a server?
A mac pro is a tower server, same underlying tech, don't see the dual cpu config in anything else. probably a properly configured server would be way more what he needs since they can actually have hundreds of gigs of ram etc.

The IPS panel thing is kind of well a non issue with some one doing programming, they are only really have an advantage when doing image manipulation and you need true colour representation.
 

Cowabungaa

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fix-the-spade said:
Cowabungaa said:
I purchased a top end Mac Pro - dual hexacore, 16GB RAM, 27" LED monitor and 1GB solid state drive. Close to $9k.
Signa said:
Given that it was a Mac, I'd say so.
I'm a come rushing to his defense.

He bought a Mac Pro, as in a workstation. They have about as much in common with an iMac as a Mercedes A-Class does with the MGP-02 Formula 1 car, same name on the front, different beast altogether (with two six core Xeon processors in it gaming will be the last of it's troubles...).

They're about the most desirable product Apple make, although since GPPUS like the Quadro an Tesla became available for PC and windows they aren't as untouchable as they used to be. Still a very nice machine though.
A sorta pointless defense, seeing as how we didn't question his machine's power nor it's use for gaming, just the absolutely insane price-quality ratio. A workstation with comparable power made to run on Windows or Linux (and when a programmer friend of mine is believed, every respectable workstation runs on Linux because it's made for workstations, apparently) is simply a couple grand cheaper. Probably easier to maintain too, though I've only heard that and can't comment on it personally.
AlphaLackey said:
Yes, but I also wanted a Mac :) That has to be worth something, right?
No, not when taking in consideration all the things we talked about here. It's just, well, foolish really. Nothing personal my man, it just makes no sense.
 

AlphaLackey

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Hoplon said:
The IPS panel thing is kind of well a non issue with some one doing programming, they are only really have an advantage when doing image manipulation and you need true colour representation.
I'm not sophisticated enough to know exactly how IPS works, but if it makes colors look prettier, that's important too -- I don't just work on this baby, as the six-hours-and-counting timer to Skyrim going live on my desktop should attest to.

Plus, it's kind of nice, when I have a small run going for 20-30 minutes, that's enough time to hammer out a StarCraft II mission while the rest of the machine is going haywire. Did I mention GCD is also better than OpenMP at knowing just what CPU resources are available?

Cowabungaa said:
AlphaLackey said:
Yes, but I also wanted a Mac :) That has to be worth something, right?
No, not when taking in consideration all the things we talked about here. It's just, well, foolish really. Nothing personal my man, it just makes no sense.
Certainly no practical sense, I'll agree with you there. And nothing personal at all. For some people, in some things, brands and look matter a lot more than they should. My wife insisted on a Coach purse (I think that was it..) and I couldn't tell it from any other kind, but she knows why she wanted it and knows why she likes it.
 

Hoplon

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AlphaLackey said:
Hoplon said:
The IPS panel thing is kind of well a non issue with some one doing programming, they are only really have an advantage when doing image manipulation and you need true colour representation.
I'm not sophisticated enough to know exactly how IPS works, but if it makes colors look prettier, that's important too -- I don't just work on this baby, as the six-hours-and-counting timer to Skyrim going live on my desktop should attest to.

Plus, it's kind of nice, when I have a small run going for 20-30 minutes, that's enough time to hammer out a StarCraft II mission while the rest of the machine is going haywire. Did I mention GCD is also better than OpenMP at knowing just what CPU resources are available?
In Plane Switching (IPS) gives a better viewing angle, eliminates most off-angle colour shift and had slightly more bandwidth so displayed true colour.

about 90% of people can't tell the difference, IPS panels for graphic designers come with hoods and a calibration tool to make sure it's correct.

They are better, but not in a way that is important to most users.
 

fix-the-spade

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Cowabungaa said:
Probably easier to maintain too, though I've only heard that and can't comment on it personally.
It's kind of a wash in that respect, MacPros use standard parts and the cases have tool-less side panels, so they're no harder to strip than workstation PCs. The cases are lovely quality too, it's been almost the same case for years, big old aluminium thing with grab handles at both ends.

Cost wise there's not much difference either. The equivalent windows workstation would be using a dual CPU socket 1366 mobo (or 2011 when it comes around, $500-ish for a good one) with relevant CPUs (Hex core Xeons at $1200 each) then ECC server RAM ($150-ish per channel, four to six channels). Then at least one Nvidia Tesla ($4000) or Quadro (up to $8500 each!) GPPU. Suddenly you're pushing ten grand just with the bare bones.

It's the old home vs professional situation. Apple have really pushed the sealed unit 'convienience' thing with home use equipment and the results stink if you're a gamer or want to do heavy duty computing on a home user budget. But pro workstatios don't work like that, they go in the bin every two years, they'll be replaced on contract and if the hardware isn't competitive Apple won't get the contract, so the workstations are pretty competitive.

Provided you boot them into Windows or Linux of course...
 

Cowabungaa

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fix-the-spade said:
It's kind of a wash in that respect, MacPros use standard parts and the cases have tool-less side panels, so they're no harder to strip than workstation PCs. The cases are lovely quality too, it's been almost the same case for years, big old aluminium thing with grab handles at both ends.

Cost wise there's not much difference either. The equivalent windows workstation would be using a dual CPU socket 1366 mobo (or 2011 when it comes around, $500-ish for a good one) with relevant CPUs (Hex core Xeons at $1200 each) then ECC server RAM ($150-ish per channel, four to six channels). Then at least one Nvidia Tesla ($4000) or Quadro (up to $8500 each!) GPPU. Suddenly you're pushing ten grand just with the bare bones.

It's the old home vs professional situation. Apple have really pushed the sealed unit 'convienience' thing with home use equipment and the results stink if you're a gamer or want to do heavy duty computing on a home user budget. But pro workstatios don't work like that, they go in the bin every two years, they'll be replaced on contract and if the hardware isn't competitive Apple won't get the contract, so the workstations are pretty competitive.

Provided you boot them into Windows or Linux of course...
He doesn't seem to be part of that market though, judging by the specifications he gave us. If he would be then yeah, I guess you're right.