Stupid Tropes in Fantasy and Mythology

[Dragonbums]

No this isn't a super serious tropes kind of thing. This is to talk about the tropes you often see in mythology and fantasy and while you don't think about it at first- when you honestly, truly, think about it your just like "huh. Why don't they do [________] instead".

I guess I'll start off with my own:

Dragons (hahaha surpise surprise!)

I always thought that some of the stuff I see in regards to dragons in mythology is silly. Like yeah I know, they are (at least in European lore) supposed to be the incarnate of evil and greed and what not. But in the fantasy stories where they are just mythical animals- why hasn't any kingdom decided- upon finding dragon eggs- to horde them and raise them as some sort of advanced cavalry? Often times they just kill the eggs.

Like capture or severely wound the parent dragon(s) then take the eggs for yourself. Hatch them, raise them, and train them to be the medieval version of airstrike forces. I can think of Eragon to an extent doing that but that's it.

It (to me) is certainly a silly thing to just slay dragons and their young. I mean, who would want to mess with a kingdom that has fucking dragons as their main line of offense and defense?

 

[Thaluikhain]

More or less anything involving a prophecy. Just don't.

Especially when you can cheat the prophecy, but have to go through the motions anyway for some reason.

 

[Zhukov]

The Special Named Sword of Specialness.

It's just a fucking sword guys. It's a length of sharpened metal. Grab the blunt end and stick the pointy end in the bad people. You don't need to get all weird about it.

 

[Ranorak]

I always thought that some of the stuff I see in regards to dragons in mythology is silly. Like yeah I know, they are (at least in European lore) supposed to be the incarnate of evil and greed and what not. But in the fantasy stories where they are just mythical animals- why hasn't any kingdom decided- upon finding dragon eggs- to horde them and raise them as some sort of advanced cavalry? Often times they just kill the eggs.

Like capture or severely wound the parent dragon(s) then take the eggs for yourself. Hatch them, raise them, and train them to be the medieval version of airstrike forces. I can think of Eragon to an extent doing that but that's it.

It (to me) is certainly a silly thing to just slay dragons and their young. I mean, who would want to mess with a kingdom that has fucking dragons as their main line of offense and defense?

During the second war, the orcs in Warcraft did something like this.
They used the Red Dragon Alexstraza for just that. Orcs on Dragons.

As for clichés:
The badguy having legions of minions, and decides to send them to the protaganist (or his group) in waves of increasing difficulty.

 

[Dragonbums]

More or less anything involving a prophecy. Just don't.

Especially when you can cheat the prophecy, but have to go through the motions anyway for some reason.

I seriously want to know who even makes these prophecies? They often seem to be super glorified predictions that people believe for some reason? Like, if the people who prophesied this stuff in the first place knew what was going to happen....why not just solve the problem now instead of waiting on the off chance that hero/heroine will do it when the time comes?


I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing was a massive troll plot by wizards, and magical maidens to see how easily fooled mortals can be. (Hell I would like to see a book on that. )

 

[Ratty]

No this isn't a super serious tropes kind of thing. This is to talk about the tropes you often see in mythology and fantasy and while you don't think about it at first- when you honestly, truly, think about it your just like "huh. Why don't they do [________] instead".

I guess I'll start off with my own:

Dragons (hahaha surpise surprise!)

I always thought that some of the stuff I see in regards to dragons in mythology is silly. Like yeah I know, they are (at least in European lore) supposed to be the incarnate of evil and greed and what not. But in the fantasy stories where they are just mythical animals- why hasn't any kingdom decided- upon finding dragon eggs- to horde them and raise them as some sort of advanced cavalry? Often times they just kill the eggs.

Like capture or severely wound the parent dragon(s) then take the eggs for yourself. Hatch them, raise them, and train them to be the medieval version of airstrike forces. I can think of Eragon to an extent doing that but that's it.

I believe there were specialized dragon riding forces somewhere in the DragonLance series. But then that whole setting is Dragon-happy. There were dragon riders in Record of Loddoss War. Raymond E. Feist has an Ancient Race of Dragon Lords (Dragon Riders) as part of the pre-history of the world of Midkemia in his Riftwar series. They were basically Cthulhu powerful and evil and all killed each other. And had a whole BDSM thing going on with the Elves whom they enslaved. Which is the origin story for the dark elves in that setting.

It (to me) is certainly a silly thing to just slay dragons and their young. I mean, who would want to mess with a kingdom that has fucking dragons as their main line of offense and defense?

There was actually a scenerio very similar to the one you describe in the very first episode of the classic anime series Slayers. Which showed why it might not be such a good idea lol.

Spoiler

 

[Dragonbums]

During the second war, the orcs in Warcraft did something like this.
They used the Red Dragon Alexstraza for just that. Orcs on Dragons.

Pfff, I forgot about videogames. yeah I saw that happen in FE:Awakening (okay they were Wyverns, but same thing.) It always tends to be the "evil" side that uses them. You would think all factions would catch on to this and start using them as well? They are so much more effective than Griffons. Lion birds can't breath fire now can they

As for clichés:
The badguy having legions of minions, and decides to send them to the protaganist (or his group) in waves of increasing difficulty.

I especially love it when they all go like two at a time and the rest just seem to hang around in a horde circle. Also love how incompetent they are. You would think at least a dozen or so minions would, idk know combat outside of randomly swinging at people?

 

[Johnny Impact]

The Temeraire series by Naomi Novik features dragon air forces. To me that idea has always seemed ludicrous. Why would an impossibly powerful immortal creature allow itself to be dominated by a flimsy cannon-fodder species like humans? You can't even say we trick them into it, since dragons are often smarter than we are. The Eberron D&D world had a much more realistic take on the situation, with one continent ruled by dragons, using the lesser races (that's us, plus elves and so forth) as servants and slaves.

Prophecy/The Chosen One. There are ways to handle it well, e.g. Cassandra being ostracized because she said things people didn't like. It coming true later did not help her. This is human nature at its finest. Modern fiction (i.e. fiction written in modern times) typically uses the cliche of "only you can do the thing in the place at the time to stop the villain" as a sloppy way to push the protagonist into action. It depends on the writers. For a modern example of it being done well, the Shan-Shu (sp?) prophecy in Angel only says that he will live and die. He died and went to hell at the end of a season of Buffy, and was later restored to true, human life (not vampiric unlife) for one episode due to the healing properties of monster blood. By the time the prophecy is encountered, he has already fulfilled it, yet he spends a great deal of time thinking about it, believing it grants him a chance at a mortal life. All it really seems to do is mess with his head.

I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing was a massive troll plot by wizards, and magical maidens to see how easily fooled mortals can be. (Hell I would like to see a book on that. )

That was one of the core ideas in Pax Arcana, a Pathfinder campaign I ran for some friends. It was based around Greek myth, so of course there were oracles. The oracles were in league with/under the thumb of the corrupt senator mastermind, who manipulated events and created false prophecies to make himself emperor and wage war on the neighboring nations.

 

[Thaluikhain]

More or less anything involving a prophecy. Just don't.

Especially when you can cheat the prophecy, but have to go through the motions anyway for some reason.

I seriously want to know who even makes these prophecies? They often seem to be super glorified predictions that people believe for some reason? Like, if the people who prophesied this stuff in the first place knew what was going to happen....why not just solve the problem now instead of waiting on the off chance that hero/heroine will do it when the time comes?


I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing was a massive troll plot by wizards, and magical maidens to see how easily fooled mortals can be. (Hell I would like to see a book on that. )

The thing that gets me, is that to predict what's going to happen in 50, 100, 200 years in any detail, you need an awful lot of information that would be useful for all sorts of things.

I mean, to have predicted what is going on for, say, various businesses in the US now, you'd probably have to have taken the GFC into account, amongst loads of things.

 

[Dragonbums]

The Temeraire series by Naomi Novik features dragon air forces. To me that idea has always seemed ludicrous. Why would an impossibly powerful immortal creature allow itself to be dominated by a flimsy cannon-fodder species like humans? You can't even say we trick them into it, since dragons are often smarter than we are. The Eberron D&D world had a much more realistic take on the situation, with one continent ruled by dragons, using the lesser races (that's us, plus elves and so forth) as servants and slaves.

That's a good point. I guess in my OP I was referring to dragons not of the sentient intelligent variety, but as simply a baseline local wildlife variety. Where anyone with the resources, patience, and smarts can tame one well enough to use for their own gains.

A race of dragons as a sentient species is a very interesting concept I would like to see more of in my opinion. Skyrim touched on the fact that they were sentient, but you know....they are all dead for the most part. Eragon did too...but they were extinct for the most part....I'm starting to see a pattern here (or maybe I need to extend my library of fantasy novels, shows, and games.)

Prophecy/The Chosen One. There are ways to handle it well, e.g. Cassandra being ostracized because she said things people didn't like. It coming true later did not help her. This is human nature at its finest. Modern fiction (i.e. fiction written in modern times) typically uses the cliche of "only you can do the thing in the place at the time to stop the villain" as a sloppy way to push the protagonist into action. It depends on the writers. For a modern example of it being done well, the Shan-Shu (sp?) prophecy in Angel only says that he will live and die. He died and went to hell at the end of a season of Buffy, and was later restored to true, human life (not vampiric unlife) for one episode due to the healing properties of monster blood. By the time the prophecy is encountered, he has already fulfilled it, yet he spends a great deal of time thinking about it, believing it grants him a chance at a mortal life. All it really seems to do is mess with his head.

Those are the most interesting ways to use phropheices. Why do people go to such great lenghts to worry about what essentially amounts to someones' predictions?

That was one of the core ideas in Pax Arcana, a Pathfinder campaign I ran for some friends. It was based around Greek myth, so of course there were oracles. The oracles were in league with/under the thumb of the corrupt senator mastermind, who manipulated events and created false prophecies to make himself emperor and wage war on the neighboring nations.

I'm curious, what is Pax Arcana? Is it a series, or a game created by a group of people?

 

[Wasted]

"Legendary Warrior! You alone have acquired weapons that slayed the ancient dragons. You have found the armor and gear from heroes past. In the month since starting your journey you have slayed the four legendary beasts of yore thus saving everyone in this city from certain death. Not only that but your selfless charity and hard work has restored this once corrupt and crumbling city into the beautiful prosperous haven where I own my humble shop. I know that the God of Death waits outside the city walls building his energy in order to devour the Universe and destroy everything there ever was and will be, ending all of existence as we understand it.

That doesn't mean I'm willing to donate my potions and supplies to aid you in the fight that holds all life in the balance. I need to run a business here so buy something or get out."

 

[Muspelheim]

"Supply lines? Nah! Our giant battle boliphants will be just fine. How much could one regiment go through in a day. Heh... Fifty tons of leaf a day?!"

Related; why are bows always far more featured than crossbows? The great drawback with a bow is that it takes years of practice to become a reliable archer, while you can stick crossbows in the hands of a few peasants and have a reasonably good crossbow troop set up in a few months. The English had to ban almost all other forms of recreation than archery to build a somewhat reliable supply of archers.

Bows does look cooler, but they'd be more at home in the hands of the elite. Of course, Elves is another thing, they've got the time to learn, and probably got a bow in the cradle.

Like capture or severely wound the parent dragon(s) then take the eggs for yourself. Hatch them, raise them, and train them to be the medieval version of airstrike forces. I can think of Eragon to an extent doing that but that's it.

It (to me) is certainly a silly thing to just slay dragons and their young. I mean, who would want to mess with a kingdom that has fucking dragons as their main line of offense and defense?

It's a neat idea, a dragon-centric culture. Of course, the kingdom would have to be entirely dragon-dependent. I imagine they eat quite a lot, so most of their resources must be focused on dragon-upkeep. Similar to the role of the horse in the Mongol culture, perhaps?

 

[sageoftruth]

For me, it's the lowly farm boy who picks up a random sword and instantly becomes the strongest fighter in the world. Some of these fantasies really take for granted the idea that being the main character instantly makes you stronger than an entire unit of trained soldiers.

On a similar note, there's also the unit of trained face-less soldiers who are unable to defeat anyone who has a face, a name, and a backstory, even if it's just a cooking maid with a frying pan, or a 5-year old with a toy sword.

 

[sageoftruth]

Also, to draw directly from TV Tropes, there's the "All Our Dwarves Are the Same" trope. Sure, there are exceptions, but most of the time you can instantly know way too much about a character just by being told that he's a dwarf.

Oh, he's a dwarf? Does he have a gruff voice, a long beard, a love of blacksmithing, a grumpy demeanor, a penchant for complimenting people with light-hearted insults, a dislike of duplicity, skill with an axe, a love of taverns and strong beer, and a deep seeded hatred for elves? I thought so.

 

[Dragonbums]

Related; why are bows always far more featured than crossbows? The great drawback with a bow is that it takes years of practice to become a reliable archer, while you can stick crossbows in the hands of a few peasants and have a reasonably good crossbow troop set up in a few months. The English had to ban almost all other forms of recreation than archery to build a somewhat reliable supply of archers.

I would suppose it takes a lot more time for it to make and make right? But then you also just said that they were quite common when first invented. I never really did think of that now that you mention it.

I guess unlike the regular bow, Crossbows take a bit more knowhow to write, draw and design. Kind of like how there are so many different types of swords, and yet we all just default to like...the basic 3 of them. Also heavily ornamented swords are the absolute worse in practicality. Far too much weight on them to work properly.

Elves is another thing, they've got the time to learn, and probably got a bow in the cradle.

I really wish the elven race can be "revamped" so to speak to be less Mary Sue. It's like the Western answer to fucking Bishonens in Japan. Especially with the "Holier than thou" attitude they exude. Meanwhile, "mere mortals" are making some serious advances in tech and this doesn't phase them in the slightest?

It's a neat idea, a dragon-centric culture. Of course, the kingdom would have to be entirely dragon-dependent. I imagine they eat quite a lot, so most of their resources must be focused on dragon-upkeep. Similar to the role of the horse in the Mongol culture, perhaps?

It's definitely a interesting concept to really think about.

I think a dragon centric culture would eventually have different breeds of dragons. Like dogs. The monstrously I can imagine to be used for supply runs and high class, and/or royal families.

People have bred them for size, shape, color, flame strength, and personality.

So for your average person a dog sized dragon would be the go to companion. Depending they can have flame or no flames. The flame ones can also range in intesity. So if your a chef for example you can have a breed of dragon that breathes fire to help with cooking, or to help light a fire, so on and so forth. (I'd also imagine those who own dragons with fire breathing capabilites must have permits and constant check ups to make sure they are diligent in proper dragon care and safety.)

Some may have dragons that are good for hunting, herding, or carrying basic supplies and messages. Other dragons are good for their looks.

Then you have your security or more industry lined dragons. They were bred for durability and placidness (you don't want them messing with your supplies do you?) Like you have ones that are good for fishing, security, scouting, sentry, heck- for the more magical users, supplies themselves. I figure dragon scales of a certain type must mean something in a world of mythical creatures. So just like you have sheep, there are certain dragons that consistently grow scales that can be sheared off and used as ingredients.

As for food sources I figure it dragons exist so must other meat heavy foods as well. Unless dragons are snakes and can for not eating for practically weeks, I see no way huge dragons can sustain themselves on some measly herd sheep.

Wow, this is a lot of fun to talk about.

 

[Ingjald]

I have something of a dislike for the "Fantasy Gun Control" trope. That is, guns, gunpowder and cannons of any ilk are banned from all fantasy settings (some exceptions, but it's pretty much default) for being too high-tech, even in settings that have technology that came much later than early guns. Guns and "knights in shining armor" existed side by side for at least 200 years until full-plate armor became obsolete. The term "bullet proof" came about from armorsmiths shooting the amrors they made, so they could use the dent to prove that the armor would stop a bullet.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Anything involving "The One" instantly bored me to death.

 

[sageoftruth]

I'm not sure if this has been made into a trope yet, but I call it the "Charge of failure". When two guys are fighting with melee weapons. You know who the loser is going to be if you see one of them raise his weapon over his head, go "Yeeeeeaaaaaargh!" and charge headlong into the enemy (unless the other guy is screaming in terror). When a main character is fighting a bunch of minions, you can expect them all to initiate the charge of failure and then be instantly cut down or tossed in the air. If the hero is facing the main antagonist early in the story, you can expect him to repeatedly do the charge of failure until he's too broken to fight anymore.
In Moviebob's video on the first Ninja Turtles movie, I saw each and every turtle do the Charge of Failure on Shredder, and then Splinter defeated Shredder because Shredder did a Charge of Failure on him.

I think I made my point.