Stupid Tropes in Fantasy and Mythology

Uriel_Hayabusa

New member
Apr 7, 2014
418
0
0
Instead of all the often complained about clichés I'm going to complain about something I often see in the "darker" fantasy stories (think A Song of Ice and Fire or The First Law that are so common these days. Why are the characters in "dark fantasy" so damn snarky 99% of the time? Seriously, a lot of the dialogue in these stories feels like the writers watched a Tarantino-marathon and decided to make all the characters in their stories talk like that too. Meanwhile, said writers fail to realize that snark and wit are two very different things.

Then again, I don't care for Tarantino movies either.
 

PainInTheAssInternet

The Ship Magnificent
Dec 30, 2011
826
0
0
That "Fantasy" is now automatically equated with "Tolkein." Fantasy as a term technically encompasses any and all machinations of our imagination. Yet whenever someone uses the term, it's safe to assume that the setting is pseudo-medieval tribalism amongst various races where a spiritual evil must be defeated by the use of an ancient maguffin. Also, everyone within a race will have very identifiable character traits exclusive to said race. Everyone will be racist, but humans are the ultimate failures in this regard for some unknown reason which must obviously be the case since the story is said to be our past yet we're the only group left.
 

sageoftruth

New member
Jan 29, 2010
3,417
0
0
Superhero comics may have outgrown the silly mascot fad, but it seems like the Fantasy genre still hasn't. Often it's a gnome, or a halfling, or someone who you'd never expect to win a fight, and he often doesn't do anything except avoid fights, while constantly getting his party into trouble and forcing them to fight on his behalf due to his mischief.
It's good to have a character who isn't a seasoned warrior for once, but mascot characters all tend to be the same, regardless of who they are.
 

Gorrath

New member
Feb 22, 2013
1,648
0
0
Wasted said:
"Legendary Warrior! You alone have acquired weapons that slayed the ancient dragons. You have found the armor and gear from heroes past. In the month since starting your journey you have slayed the four legendary beasts of yore thus saving everyone in this city from certain death. Not only that but your selfless charity and hard work has restored this once corrupt and crumbling city into the beautiful prosperous haven where I own my humble shop. I know that the God of Death waits outside the city walls building his energy in order to devour the Universe and destroy everything there ever was and will be, ending all of existence as we understand it.

That doesn't mean I'm willing to donate my potions and supplies to aid you in the fight that holds all life in the balance. I need to run a business here so buy something or get out."
This has always, always bugged me. I guess that's why I like how it's done in Fallout instead of Fantasy style games. I've always toyed with a game design idea of having your character's fame (or infamy) come into play with shops in areas where the player is known.
 

solemnwar

New member
Sep 19, 2010
649
0
0
Dragonbums said:
Elves is another thing, they've got the time to learn, and probably got a bow in the cradle.
I really wish the elven race can be "revamped" so to speak to be less Mary Sue. It's like the Western answer to fucking Bishonens in Japan. Especially with the "Holier than thou" attitude they exude. Meanwhile, "mere mortals" are making some serious advances in tech and this doesn't phase them in the slightest?
I actually have a vague world idea that takes place in a sort of future-esque setting (some sci-fi elements but not too different from now... because I'm too lazy to actually put effort into proper sci-fi) mixed with fantasy. In it are humans, fae folk, and elves. Fae folk were magic-only, and elves are the technological masterminds, with humans sitting in the middle. And basically humans having the upper hand by virtue of the fact they figured out nuclear weapons first. Kind of wanted to do something different with elves, and since they're usually depicted as luddites I figured I'd go the opposite route. And then I went the opposite route with fae folk and instead pulled them back more to their roots as being horrible creatures that were really very nasty and humans had to watch out for them and their tricksy ways. I haven't done much with it though. Still some finagling that needs to be done with it.

OT: Hmmm. I don't really have anything that hasn't already been said. Although I don't mind the "prophesy" thing. I can swallow a lot of silliness under the pretence of "magic".
 

Gorrath

New member
Feb 22, 2013
1,648
0
0
Ingjald said:
I have something of a dislike for the "Fantasy Gun Control" trope. That is, guns, gunpowder and cannons of any ilk are banned from all fantasy settings (some exceptions, but it's pretty much default) for being too high-tech, even in settings that have technology that came much later than early guns. Guns and "knights in shining armor" existed side by side for at least 200 years until full-plate armor became obsolete. The term "bullet proof" came about from armorsmiths shooting the amrors they made, so they could use the dent to prove that the armor would stop a bullet.
This always bothered me as well. When writing parts of my campaign setting, certain nations with access to specific technologies and resources were able to craft guns and gun powder, but the weapons were of extraordinary rarity and were the domain of elite forces and aristocrats. One of the ways we got around technology creep is to have iron be a scarce rarity and the metal used for most weapons is a fantasy creation called Ivorite. It just so happens that properly treated iron makes good gun barrels and even boilers for steam engines. Ivorite makes fine bladed weapons but fractures under the strain of steam/combustion.

Hell, even that bunch of fantasy isn't really necessary. As you point out, early gun technology existed along side armor and melee weapons for a very long time.
 

NemotheElvenPanda

New member
Aug 29, 2012
152
0
0
How almost every setting is a rehash of medieval Europe with kings, knights, lords, monolithic religions with priests fond of fancy hats, all that jazz. Jade Empire is really the only fantasy game I can think of where it's not in 11th century England. Warcraft, Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings, DnD (in most games), Warhammer, Dragon Age, The Witcher, it gets really dull after awhile. Give me Ming Dynasty China or Pre-Colonial Africa, something new and unexplored please.
 

COMaestro

Vae Victis!
May 24, 2010
739
0
0
Dragonbums said:
Muspelheim said:
Related; why are bows always far more featured than crossbows? The great drawback with a bow is that it takes years of practice to become a reliable archer, while you can stick crossbows in the hands of a few peasants and have a reasonably good crossbow troop set up in a few months. The English had to ban almost all other forms of recreation than archery to build a somewhat reliable supply of archers.
I would suppose it takes a lot more time for it to make and make right? But then you also just said that they were quite common when first invented. I never really did think of that now that you mention it.

I guess unlike the regular bow, Crossbows take a bit more knowhow to write, draw and design. Kind of like how there are so many different types of swords, and yet we all just default to like...the basic 3 of them. Also heavily ornamented swords are the absolute worse in practicality. Far too much weight on them to work properly.
There's also things like reload times and such that need to be taken into account regarding crossbows. Depending on the strength of the user and the power of the crossbow, a person would fire, then put it point down and step into a stirrup on the front, grab the string and pull back to re-cock it, pick it back up, place a bolt in it, aim, fire, then repeat. Some were too heavy to do that with and had a crank to allow the wielder to re-cock the crossbow, which took longer than the other method. Either way, you're looking at a bit of a delay between shots.

A bow on the other hand, even a relatively unskilled person can fire a bow and have another arrow nocked and ready to fire within maybe 10 seconds at the worst, but it should only take maybe 5 seconds on average, and literally 1-2 seconds for a skilled archer. In actual warfare, when you have a whole unit of archers, being able to launch multiple volleys of arrows in a short time could be devastating, and when firing in a volley individual archery skills were relatively unimportant. 100 archers firing into a crowd of troops are bound to hit something, even at the longest possible range. It wouldn't be until the enemy units came into a closer range that the ability to aim and hit a target would really matter.

A bow is just some wood and string, so were relatively easy to make. Crossbows, on the other hand, were small bows with a mechanism to fire it, so while not super complex by any means, they still required more work from the craftsman in order to make one. That's why bows are so much more common in a fantasy setting. Plus, as said, it takes years to become a skilled archer, so when someone is featured in a story or game that has excellent archery skills, it makes them appear that much more badass.
 

DSP_Zulu

New member
Jun 4, 2013
35
0
0
To add to the above:

While a bow is not simply "wood and string" - you need the right kind of wood, have to season it, has to have the right grain, toughness, etc... it is still largely easier to do that than create the arm for a crossbow, which requires lamination and glue all sorts of stuff, or advanced metalworking (for the truly heavy crossbows). They were harder to make for quite some time, until drop-forging became a thing. And if it was heavy enough to require a cranequin - good luck. That was a complex piece of machinery to create (if not operate).

And while it is easier to arm unskilled people with Crossbows, the rate of fire disparity made Crossbows largely a defensive weapon, not a battlefield weapon. They were great for defending a fortification or held position (a heavy crossbow could down a horse with a fist-sized hole through its chest) where their rate of fire wasn't as important.

Bows still ruled the battlefield for a long time simply because of rate of fire. And not all bows took a long time to master - shorter bows (the kind you direct-fire with) are actually significantly easier to learn to use. What made the British Longbow so deadly (and took so long to train with) was that you had to learn to be accurate with indirect fire. The concept of a group of archers just setting up massive volleys every 5-ish seconds actually never happened on medieval battlefields - they'd go through their arrows too fast if they did that. The british trained so obsessively so they WOULDNT have to rely on weight of fire alone, and could be accurate, even when volleying indirect fire.

There's actually a pretty amusing (true) story where Ben Franklin argued with the COntinental Congress to arm the Continental Army with bows instead of guns, because the guns of the era weren't accurate at extreme range (and so possessed almost no real range advantage), were slow to fire, and armor had largely been phased out because of the power of firearms... so volleys of arrows would actually have torn the Redcoats to pieces. A broadheaded arrow from a longbow actually has almost the same kinetic force as a .38 Special.

He was shouted down because that would have been "uncivilized" and "barbaric" and not a righteous way to make war.
 

Eddie the head

New member
Feb 22, 2012
2,327
0
0
I don't know if I dislike this or anything, but I do notice a lot of christens like to misremember the Leviathan as greek. Other then that a lot of mythology was done in a different time, in a different language so I can't much complain about that.

For fantasy well I'm getting kind of tired of "Noble savages" as a trope. I'm looking at you Warcraft.
 

Little Woodsman

New member
Nov 11, 2012
1,057
0
0
Powerful wizards are always either disgusting bags of horrible and evil, or beings of almost pure goodness and light.
Why do you never run in to a powerful wizard who's just a regular guy/gal who says "Sure I'll help you out for fifty bucks" or "Yeah, I'll unleash my powers against this advancing threat because I don't want the social order upset".
No, they always have to send you on some bizarre quest (that has you constantly asking "If he wants this darn crystal orb so bad why doesn't he just get it with his magic?") before they'll do anything to help.
Either that or they *are* the horrible advancing threat.
It's like becoming good at magic automatically turns you into either an angel or a total dick.
 

LostCrusader

Lurker in the shadows
Feb 3, 2011
498
0
0
Zhukov said:
The Special Named Sword of Specialness.

It's just a fucking sword guys. It's a length of sharpened metal. Grab the blunt end and stick the pointy end in the bad people. You don't need to get all weird about it.
Even if the sword is made from a meteorite sneezed out of a celestial dragon? That has to have some benefits.

OT: Why must all mages have preposterous hats? Gandalf had the standard pointy hat and thats fine but everyone else just trys to one up that, and it just comes off as stupid.
 

Ingjald

New member
Nov 17, 2009
79
0
0
Gorrath said:
Hell, even that bunch of fantasy isn't really necessary. As you point out, early gun technology existed along side armor and melee weapons for a very long time.
indeed. And while there were some advanced ironworking required to make proper iron barrels, the point becomes a bit moot when you realize that bronze, while more expensive per unit, makes a much better barrel with metalworking skills that would be ancient by the time they were called on to make gun and cannon barrels. Admittedly, copper is a precious metal, and tin has to be traded for if you're in Europe, but still.

I get that historical accuracy isn't always the goal with a fantasy setting, by definition. But this particular exclusion is a bit too prevalent.


LostCrusader said:
Why must all mages have preposterous hats? Gandalf had the standard pointy hat and thats fine but everyone else just trys to one up that, and it just comes off as stupid.
Gandalf had one because Odin had one, a pointy slouchy had that he used to obscure his face and mess around with mortals and giving us all the mysterious wandering wizard tropes ever. Ironically, even within his own sagas everyone almost immediately got who he was...
 

Trunkage

Nascent Orca
Legacy
Jun 21, 2012
8,715
2,891
118
Brisbane
Gender
Cyborg
thaluikhain said:
More or less anything involving a prophecy. Just don't.

Especially when you can cheat the prophecy, but have to go through the motions anyway for some reason.
I liked Babylon 5's take on prophecy as it meant that it got to a stage were it was unreliable.

OT: somehow over thousands of years there is no improvement in technology. Or worse, technology lessens because humans came like Lord of the Rings.
 

Dragonbums

Indulge in it's whiffy sensation
May 9, 2013
3,307
0
0
NemotheElvenPanda said:
How almost every setting is a rehash of medieval Europe with kings, knights, lords, monolithic religions with priests fond of fancy hats, all that jazz. Jade Empire is really the only fantasy game I can think of where it's not in 11th century England. Warcraft, Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings, DnD (in most games), Warhammer, Dragon Age, The Witcher, it gets really dull after awhile. Give me Ming Dynasty China or Pre-Colonial Africa, something new and unexplored please.

An African fantasy genre in the same time period as the "medieval" period would be ultra interesting actually. I really want to look into that. Just think about how popular a novel, television series, and/or videogame would be if they got the right person to really nail that era on the head.

Also African mythology doesn't get enough credit. I read somewhere that Hyenas are thought to be basically the werewolves of the continent.
 

Dragonbums

Indulge in it's whiffy sensation
May 9, 2013
3,307
0
0
LostCrusader said:
OT: Why must all mages have preposterous hats? Gandalf had the standard pointy hat and thats fine but everyone else just trys to one up that, and it just comes off as stupid.
I guess at that point it becomes a status symbol? Like your so fucking good with magic that you don't need to have practical, unnoticeable wear. Try and hit me. My magic will kill you from that distance guaranteed.


I like how Soul Eater went with it. Witch hats, like other things were magically imbued and could actually help out the user in tough spots such as the tip of the hat becoming a "hand" of some sort to grip the enemy.
 

Muspelheim

New member
Apr 7, 2011
2,023
0
0
I suppose that's the interesting dilemma about crossbows. They're more difficult to make and require a well developed culture to invent, but they're easier to learn. Bows are simple to make and most, if not all, hunter-gatherer cultures have developed some form of them.

I imagine large cultures with an emphasis on numbers (like peasant levvies) would find them more useful than smaller cultures, like wood elves relying on a warrior-elite.

As for elves, yes, they do tend to be awfully boring on their own. There are interesting things to do with them, particularly the wilder part of their origin. Perhaps taking a few notes from the Celts would work? Wild, unpredictable forest dwellers, as opposed to really pretty people singing songs.

A full-on dragon culture would be amusing to see sometime, with various breeds for different purposes. It's a common trope, but they're usually not the core of the culture.

That is true, come to think of it. Crossbows were often used in stationary warfare, such as sieges, where the delay didn't matter as much as the marksmanship. Now that you say it, it'd likely be the other way around on field battles; numbers over aim.

The volleyfire from longbows were indeed much more devastating on the whole, but the English had to emphasise archery training among the population in order to produce that many archers. I believe they banned activities like (medieval) football so that it wouldn't take time away from the important archery training. And then muscles come in to it. If you haven't built up the muscle strength, it's rather difficult to fire at range, even if marksmanship isn't a concern. If they couldn't draw the string far enough, it'd fall short.

(Amusingly, this often led to soldiers having great, big muscles on one arm and an ordinary set on the other)

Of course, longbow volleys were still utterly devastating, and no doubt traumatized the surviving French nobility for years after Agincourt. Interestingly, the chivalrous nobility had been rather unhappy with the crossbow when it became common, too, since it had a bit too easy of a time to punch through their then-current armour.

As you say, the real reason bows are most featured in fantasy is because it looks good, and implies alot of training on the part of the character. The only beef I have is when bows is the only ranged weapon of use in an IP (looking at you, Oblivion, at least your little brother got something extra with the DLC).

That's true, I just remembered things like the shortbows used by mounted archers. Hmm, perhaps another trait for the draconic Mongolia-esque culture we drew up for fun earlier?

Dear me, I'm relearning alot I didn't know I'd forgotten.
 

verdant monkai

New member
Oct 30, 2011
1,519
0
0
Dragonbums said:
No this isn't a super serious tropes kind of thing. This is to talk about the tropes you often see in mythology and fantasy and while you don't think about it at first- when you honestly, truly, think about it your just like "huh. Why don't they do [________] instead".

I guess I'll start off with my own:

Dragons (hahaha surpise surprise!)

I always thought that some of the stuff I see in regards to dragons in mythology is silly. Like yeah I know, they are (at least in European lore) supposed to be the incarnate of evil and greed and what not. But in the fantasy stories where they are just mythical animals- why hasn't any kingdom decided- upon finding dragon eggs- to horde them and raise them as some sort of advanced cavalry? Often times they just kill the eggs.

Like capture or severely wound the parent dragon(s) then take the eggs for yourself. Hatch them, raise them, and train them to be the medieval version of airstrike forces. I can think of Eragon to an extent doing that but that's it.

It (to me) is certainly a silly thing to just slay dragons and their young. I mean, who would want to mess with a kingdom that has fucking dragons as their main line of offense and defense?
I'm sure you've read or at least heard of Eragon. The trouble is with dragon riding is that it's usually so awesome that the hole fantasy revolves around just riding Dragons. Eragon suffers from this and although it's a good series, the magic system that the writer tacked on feels really dull, its overly complex and you can just tell that he thought it was going to be his big thing next to dragon riding.
Point being if you have dragon riding in fantasy, then your fantasy usually ends up being mostly about Dragon riding.

A problem I have with most fantasy is that damn "The time of the Dwarves/Elves is over" thing. FUCK OFF AND GET CREATIVE That was Tolkiens thing.
<pls dont steal

The Warhammer world is particularly bad for this. It spends the whole time jerking off going on about how complex/advanced/awesome the "elder" races were, but in reality they are a bunch of shit men trying to recover lost glory. The depressing idea that Elves and Dwarves are completely stuffed, and your fantasy world will soon have a completely human population is a bad one. Something I like is the sense that the world you create is still living after you have finished your story, not just so there can be sequels. But to allow for the reader/viewer/player to draw their own conclusions. And if you are killing off these beloved fantasy races it makes the conclusions seem a bit dark and shitty.
 

DSP_Zulu

New member
Jun 4, 2013
35
0
0
Ingjald said:
indeed. And while there were some advanced ironworking required to make proper iron barrels, the point becomes a bit moot when you realize that bronze, while more expensive per unit, makes a much better barrel with metalworking skills that would be ancient by the time they were called on to make gun and cannon barrels. Admittedly, copper is a precious metal, and tin has to be traded for if you're in Europe, but still.

I get that historical accuracy isn't always the goal with a fantasy setting, by definition. But this particular exclusion is a bit too prevalent.
I think this is something a lot of people just dont think about, and it is something that bothers me.... but there is (something) of a counter to this argument as well:

sometimes, you have to advance significantly beyond a certain point of technology before other principles and applications of said technology become apparent.

For instance, keeping the gun analogy:

There is no reason that a gunsmith in the 1700s couldn't have made a repeating rifle or revolver. The metalurgical technology at the time was more than sufficient to produce the steel required, and the lathe and other machining tools had become... available, if not common. But it wasn't until MANY years later (almost two centuries) that it became obvious to people that they could do that.

Even a lot of our totally-modern guns are actually decidedly low tech, it just took us learning about other peripheral things (how the gas works from the firing of the bullet, how to mill certain types of gears) that we could put it all together in one package. A gunsmith from the civil war could, given the plans, make an M-4. The technology isn't that advanced at all. But it took us about another century to put all the applications of the available technology together to create the thing, even though it was *possible* as far back as the 1800s.
 

ForumSafari

New member
Sep 25, 2012
572
0
0
Johnny Impact said:
The Temeraire series by Naomi Novik features dragon air forces. To me that idea has always seemed ludicrous. Why would an impossibly powerful immortal creature allow itself to be dominated by a flimsy cannon-fodder species like humans? You can't even say we trick them into it, since dragons are often smarter than we are.
The other side of this is that if the mount is fast moving, flies, breathes all kinds of nastiness, is more intelligent than the rider AND can even sometimes cast magic on its' own and is so large the rider will be unable to use any kind of weapon from astride it...then why does the dragon have a rider again? Why not simply order the dragon to do something instead of sticking a rider on its' back?

In fact the only dragon riding series I can actually go along with is the Dragonriders of Pern, where the rider actually serves a purpose rather than simply ruining the dragon's aerodynamics.