Super Speed & Strength in D20

[Sidmen]

Hi Everyone!

So, my usual place for fielding these kinds of questions is down, so I figured you all would be ever so happy to help.

Right now, I'm trying to translate some creatures from the Dresden Files into a D20 game (Star Wars: Saga Edition to be exact. If you don't know the exact system, don't worry - it's close enough to D&D 3.5 or 4e that your opinions will still be valid and valued.

Anyway, in the Dresden Files there are creatures that possess superhuman speed or strength (or both) and I want to translate this into these characters. But I'm having a hard time thinking about how I should go about this. I mean, I could just pump up their movement speed and give them high STR and DEX scores, but that just feels lame.

Can you guys come up with something better for me?

 

[Tayh]

How about simply giving them more attacks per round, extra innate base attack damage and higher evasion/AC?

Most of my D&D knowledge stems from the Neverwinter Nights games, so I'm not sure how relevant or applicable this suggestion is.

 

[FrozenLaughs]

The Denaria? (sp?)

A lot of times speed of enemies/players is really dependant on the way it is explained/imagined.

Statistically Dex, movement speed and Str fit the bill, but for balance you might forgo a high Str and add Weapon Finesse to emphasis accuracy over brute force.

Dex effects Armor Class naturally, but you could also give them a bonus to Natural, or even a profane bonus (demons?) to explain their incredible speed.

Most importantly, work out your description of them to fully illustrate their key feature is their speed. Multiple attacks are another good way to illustrate that, but perhaps emphasize that they come from speed and not from skill.

Movement abilities are another good way to illustrate speed, like Spring Attack, charge and bullrush maneuvers, and even the Monk ability to always be considered running when making a jump check. You could have them move by covering ground in large leaps and bounds. A High Acrobatics or Jump/Tumble would allow them to cover lots of ground.

For some reason most players correlate crazy jumping with speed rather than strength.

 

[Comic Sans]

An interesting wrinkle to show them being fast would possibly be to give them two rounds each cycle. Have each guy roll initiative or whatever equivalent you have twice, so they go, and then go again later. That would show that these guys are faster than normal. Another thing you could do is rather than just buffing their movement range, let them cross rough terrain without issue. If the party has penalties to movement that clearly don't apply to these enemies, it shows that they have better movement in general. Strength I can't think of much other than presentation on how to show them as strong. Some additional flat damage always does it, but you could also have them perform crazy feats in front of the party to show them as being strong. Say, lifting something heavy and throwing it. If someone tore a fire hydrant out of the ground and threw it at me, or tried to hit me with it, it would send a message. Also, perhaps give them attacks that let them ignore a portion of armor or something. Make sure you describe these things to the party so they understand these guys are special and not just stats to throw themselves at. A strong narration of these enemies can make the party fear them and recognize how strong they are more than actual combat can. It's not enough to say "he punches you for 18 damage." It's "the foe delivers a crushing blow to your chest. You feel your armor dent and your bones crack from the force of the blow". It makes a huge difference.

 

[FrozenLaughs]

You have to remember to keep them somewhat balanced too. Creating scratch monsters is an easily slippery slope that leads to death and wipes.

Do the bare minimum to get the point across, and test the waters of your creation. As you progress bump it up and round it out better until you have found that sweetspot of challenge. Introduce newer, stronger versions as your group progresses.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

Personally, I would have strength boosts give you a +2*tier boost to str, one relevant feat for each tier, and the ability to wield weapons one size category larger for each tier. For speed I'd do +2*tier boost to dex, a relevant feat, and probably a +2 or +3 bonus to base attack bonus (base, so that they get more attacks). For endurance, a con boost (or hp boost for undead), a relevant feat, and damage reduction. For regeneration, fast healing and a relevant feat.

The rest of this is just some other stuff I came up with before just writing what I would do. If you don't read it I won't be offended.

Look at some of the already existing abilities and spells for help. Haste, for example, could be a constant effect put on characters with super speed. Any of the many not die feats and abilities could be given to characters instead of improved toughness and fast healing could always be used instead of regeneration. Superstrength doesn't translate too well though... you'll probably just have to throw all kinds of feats at them instead. Simply giving them more of a relevant stat is always an option.

I do forsee you running into an issue with wizards though. Magic works too differently in Dresden for it to be explained away with vancian casting or the spontaneous casting systems of DnD. Maybe base it on psionics (or something similar) where you have a number of points per day which can be used to cast spells which each have a particular cost associated with them. I don't really think Dresden's magic works without some kind of mental damage track to consider though. (You may have already solved this with something in the d20 stuff you're using, but I have no clue what kind of magic or casting systems they have in d20 material that isn't dnd).

For monsters though, don't even bother translating them. Just use the D20 version of them. Aside from some very specific stuff (like Denarians), I can't foresee there being too much of an issue. I suppose you'll have to slam a few concepts together for some creatures though (White courts could be a mixture of vampire and succubus).

 

[Sidmen]

Yeah, balance was my chief concern when I was looking into making a foe that was both really strong and really fast. Just dumping STR and DEX up to superhuman levels gives me a more challenging foe with numbers - and little else.

I really like the idea of giving them extra initiatives and maybe the throw (or bantha rush) feat (tweaked to work with unarmed attacks). I think it'd give the appropriate feeling of being much slower and weaker than this Vampire when it can casually walk through the group taking 2-3 actions while tossing everyone in its reach around like rag dolls.

None of my characters are Wizards, so I don't have to bother with trying to replicate their magic. Besides, I'm using some unholy mashup of Dresden Files, Monster Hunters International, and "original" ideas for my campaign verse.

I had thought of just using the Pathfinder/3.5 versions of critters - but they... well, they just suck. When I look at what a d&d vampire can do I don't see anything remotely like what I imagine vampires to be like. They have a bunch of ancillary abilities that will never come into play with nothing in what I would consider their primary capabilities that any random Fighter couldn't have.

Thanks for the ideas guys!

 

[Cette]

You might want to take a look at Rifts systems. For all that it's clunky as hell it's built to accommodate theses levels of power discrepancy.

Though admittedly in a contemporary setting without the crazy future weapons and armor your characters would get butchered in droves fighting supernatural enemies in that system.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

Yeah, balance was my chief concern when I was looking into making a foe that was both really strong and really fast. Just dumping STR and DEX up to superhuman levels gives me a more challenging foe with numbers - and little else.

I really like the idea of giving them extra initiatives and maybe the throw (or bantha rush) feat (tweaked to work with unarmed attacks). I think it'd give the appropriate feeling of being much slower and weaker than this Vampire when it can casually walk through the group taking 2-3 actions while tossing everyone in its reach around like rag dolls.

None of my characters are Wizards, so I don't have to bother with trying to replicate their magic. Besides, I'm using some unholy mashup of Dresden Files, Monster Hunters International, and "original" ideas for my campaign verse.

I had thought of just using the Pathfinder/3.5 versions of critters - but they... well, they just suck. When I look at what a d&d vampire can do I don't see anything remotely like what I imagine vampires to be like. They have a bunch of ancillary abilities that will never come into play with nothing in what I would consider their primary capabilities that any random Fighter couldn't have.

Thanks for the ideas guys!

If I could give you one more piece of advice, it would be to vary the feats based on what the character is supposed to do. Weapon finesse may be nice for a speedy vampire, but a werewolf will probably never use it. It may be a bit harder than just using some really general feat, but it should be worth it.

 

[LadyLightning]

Yeah, balance was my chief concern when I was looking into making a foe that was both really strong and really fast. Just dumping STR and DEX up to superhuman levels gives me a more challenging foe with numbers - and little else.

I really like the idea of giving them extra initiatives and maybe the throw (or bantha rush) feat (tweaked to work with unarmed attacks). I think it'd give the appropriate feeling of being much slower and weaker than this Vampire when it can casually walk through the group taking 2-3 actions while tossing everyone in its reach around like rag dolls.

None of my characters are Wizards, so I don't have to bother with trying to replicate their magic. Besides, I'm using some unholy mashup of Dresden Files, Monster Hunters International, and "original" ideas for my campaign verse.

I had thought of just using the Pathfinder/3.5 versions of critters - but they... well, they just suck. When I look at what a d&d vampire can do I don't see anything remotely like what I imagine vampires to be like. They have a bunch of ancillary abilities that will never come into play with nothing in what I would consider their primary capabilities that any random Fighter couldn't have.

Thanks for the ideas guys!

I think you've never seen a vampire monk in action, then. A proper grappling build on a vampire monk can pretty much ensure that a single target can't do anything to fight back while taking CON damage every round, plus the free unarmed strike you get for maintaining a grapple. Did I mention that vampires' unarmed strikes apply two negative levels on a failed Fort save?

Oh, and if the target manages to overcome the vampire and reverse the grapple, well, the vampire can just turn into a cloud of mist and get free without having to struggle.

Anyway, I don't think the OP was talking about vampires, though I would see why he would ask if he was, too. Vampires in the Dresden Files come in three very different varieties, only one of which are very much like the more Stokeresque D&D vamps. I would probably represent the different courts in the same manner as Pathfinder class archetypes, only for the Vampire template.

Replace the White Court's blood drain ability with an 'emotion drain' ability, which deals 1d4 points of CHA damage to any target that fails a saving throw against Dominate and Charm effects caused by the vamp, and half damage to targets that make their save. Perhaps give them 2 less bonus STR (less combatant) and 2 more bonus CHA (smexy as fuck).

Replace the Red Court's dominating gaze with a paralyzing poison, and replace their slam attack with a bite attack that applies a dose of that poison on hit.

Give the Black Court Practiced Spellcaster as a bonus feat (only Court that has displayed use of magic), but make the template add 2 less CHA than normal(rotting zombie flesh).


As for the Denarians, I feel that the best way to represent superhuman speed is to simply increase the creature's movement speed. Perhaps you could give them the Child of Shadow stance, from the Shadow Hand discipline in the Book of Nine Swords, which grants the user 20% concealment until their next turn, simply by moving at least 10 feet. Perhaps give them an Initiative bonus so it's easier for them to go first. Or better yet, just make them Swordsages with a focus on the Diamond Mind discipline, my personal favourite.