Superman is bisexual now!!!

Bob_McMillan

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Doesn't make much of a difference, kids can develop a crush on one another. And media has never had any problems showing that so long as it was straight. Not that I'm saying you're jumping to that conclusion, but seeing as media has spent decades cultivating the idea that two straight 10-years forming a crush is perfectly fine, but two gay 10-year olds is impossible and creepy *cough* Luca *cough*, it's easy for ones mind to initially go there.
That's a fair point. I still generally find it weird when when media tackles romance at such a young age. For example, Castle in the Sky. The whole time I was just screaming at the screen, "Y'all are fucking children!". Maybe it's because I only even started considering a relationship in college, and I'd seen what relationships at a young age did to my schoolmates. Personally I don't think kids need the pressure of considering relationships until they're mature enough to have one.

I'm not OF that community, so I can't speak for them, but as a black man, I know it really frustrates me when "black" is shoehorned in because "black."
This is pretty much how I feel when another Asian movie comes out or an Asian character is introduced. The media always spin it as some win for the Asian community, when 99% of the time only East Asians are featured. But I guess that's more of the fault of the European cartographers who decided that everyone who was not white and everyone who was not black was Asian.
 
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Casual Shinji

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OT, I'm all for inclusivity. I don't mind people doing/loving/being what they want to be (as long as it doesn't affect anyone else in a negative way,) and don't mind it being represented in the media I consume (except gay porn, hard pass,) but this recent trend of blatant pandering is just so disingenuous, I find it hard to believe those in the LGBTQ+ community can really appreciate it. I'm not OF that community, so I can't speak for them, but as a black man, I know it really frustrates me when "black" is shoehorned in because "black." There are ways it can be done naturally and organically, like create a NEW hero/character and have that be an innate trait of the character. A black Human Torch didn't "include" me... because the Human Torch isn't black. I know this. EVERYONE knows this. Coopting existing and iconic characters and saying "oh, they're gay now" or "oh, they're black now" does nothing for anyone. If anything, I feel it's insulting and hampers progress in that it gives those who aren't so understanding or accepting something else to rail at while they feel the minorities and gays are coming for their toys.
When it comes to the superhero genre especially though that puts representation between a rock and a hard place, since making new characters isn't something that superhero comics tend to do too much. The mainstays are always going to be every character that was made pre-2000. Which means we're stuck with a whole lot of straight white guys, unless we have one of those mainstays come out as a different sexuality, or portray them with diffrent skin color in a movie adaptation.

The cynical part of me sees this as an obvious and shallow corporate attempt to appeal to the current mindset that has a growing acceptance of the LGBTQ+ community, but at the same time I realize this is likely the only real fighting chance a gay (or in this case bi) superhero has to actually gain a foothold. Because creating one from scratch not only has the non-straight aspect against it, but also that of being a totally new superhero.

And I mean, the assholes are going to rail regardless, there's no need to try and placate them. They'll find shit to accuse of wokeness no matter what.
 

Casual Shinji

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That's a fair point. I still generally find it weird when when media tackles romance at such a young age. For example, Castle in the Sky. The whole time I was just screaming at the screen, "Y'all are fucking children!". Maybe it's because I only even started considering a relationship in college, and I'd seen what relationships at a young age did to my schoolmates. Personally I don't think kids need the pressure of considering relationships until they're mature enough to have one.
Yeah, but that's just the simplicity of movie plots. And even then, Castle in the Sky keeps it fairly tame on Sheeta and Pazu being meant to be and eachother's true love. In movies like this I don't think you're supposed to think long term, but more about the in-the-moment bond between them.
 
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BrawlMan

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Yeah, but that's just the simplicity of movie plots. And even then, Castle in the Sky keeps it fairly tame on Sheeta and Pazu being meant to be and eachother's true love. In movies like this I don't think you're supposed to think long term, but more about the in-the-moment bond between them.
Even though many fans like the ship them together, it's just regular friendship in the actual movie and bonding in the moments. Honestly, that's why I like a majority of Studio Ghibli's works; especially the early ones. They never bothered tacking on romance much, like a billion Hollywood movies usually do. Animated or live action.
 
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Xprimentyl

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When it comes to the superhero genre especially though that puts representation between a rock and a hard place, since making new characters isn't something that superhero comics tend to do too much. The mainstays are always going to be every character that was made pre-2000. Which means we're stuck with a whole lot of straight white guys, unless we have one of those mainstays come out as a different sexuality, or portray them with diffrent skin color in a movie adaptation.

The cynical part of me sees this as an obvious and shallow corporate attempt to appeal to the current mindset that has a growing acceptance of the LGBTQ+ community, but at the same time I realize this is likely the only real fighting chance a gay (or in this case bi) superhero has to actually gain a foothold. Because creating one from scratch not only has the non-straight aspect against it, but also that of being a totally new superhero.

And I mean, the assholes are going to rail regardless, there's no need to try and placate them. They'll find shit to accuse of wokeness no matter what.
That speaks exactly to the pandering, placating and condescending nature of it all. Hollywood doesn't have the balls to try something new that's inclusive, but they can't wait to take an established success, and change them to fit the zeitgeist.

I have no and have never had a problem with a cis Superman, and I'm a black man. But if someone wanted to have the "balls" try a new, black hero that isn't riding the coattails of an established hero's success, I think that'd be a lot more meaningful.
 
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Bob_McMillan

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Yeah, but that's just the simplicity of movie plots. And even then, Castle in the Sky keeps it fairly tame on Sheeta and Pazu being meant to be and eachother's true love. In movies like this I don't think you're supposed to think long term, but more about the in-the-moment bond between them.
I'll chalk it up to "not my kind of thing" then. The timeline of romance is a detail that always sticks out to me. I really can't take your declarations of love seriously when you've known each other for a couple of days at most.

When it comes to the superhero genre especially though that puts representation between a rock and a hard place, since making new characters isn't something that superhero comics tend to do too much. The mainstays are always going to be every character that was made pre-2000.

The cynical part of me sees this as an obvious and shallow corporate attempt to appeal to the current mindset that has a growing acceptance of the LGBTQ+ community, but at the same time I realize this is likely the only real fighting chance a gay (or in this case bi) superhero has to actually gain a foothold. Because creating one from scratch not only has the non-straight aspect against it, but also that of being a totally new superhero.
I don't know how that true that is. I mean, Miles Morales and Kamala Khan were popular enough to get their own videogames (sort of) before a shit ton of the mainstays. If there's good writing, it will have appeal. A good number of the new characters created over the past decade, who are usually young people of color, are still around and relevant today. They're not pillars of the industry like Batman or Spider-man, but they're here to stay. If these publishers want more diverse characters, they're gonna have to grow some balls (and apparently clean house of all their bigotry) and hire talented people who come from diverse backgrounds and can do these characters justice.

OT: My sister referred me to this article below
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Superman, a straight white savior. Really. I don't know if the author is implying that a "straight savior" is a thing, whatever that would be, but calling Supes a white savior, especially the modern version, is a gigantic stretch.
 
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Worgen

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Superman, a straight white savior. Really. I don't know if the author is implying that a "straight savior" is a thing, whatever that would be, but calling Supes a white savior, especially the modern version, is a gigantic stretch.
People have seen him as one, despite the fact he is an illegal immigrant from space.

Anyway, I don't care about comics, but my favorite part about this is that it will piss off dumb people. The most annoying part about this is that it will go into that bullshit culture warrior bullshit the right fucken loves to wage for their stupid culture war brownie points.
 
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Casual Shinji

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Are they kissing or just pressing their mouthless faces together? I can't tell.
That speaks exactly to the pandering, placating and condescending nature of it all. Hollywood doesn't have the balls to try something new that's inclusive, but they can't wait to take an established success, and change them to fit the zeitgeist.

I have no and have never had a problem with a cis Superman, and I'm a black man. But if someone wanted to have the "balls" try a new, black hero that isn't riding the coattails of an established hero's success, I think that'd be a lot more meaningful.
This can help open the door a bit more to that though. I'm sure there's plenty of people trying to get original representative characters out there, but will get halted by the ones in charge that feel that it's not familiar and therefor won't sell. By tying something still seen by many as unfamiliar, like being gay, to something that is seen as very familiar, like a well established Superman character, the later can help do some legwork for the former.

Ofcourse a wholly original LGBTQ+ superhero would be a lot more meaningful, but that doesn't mean representation of this kind has absolutely no meaning. And it's not like people can't find out later in life that they're gay or bi, and in Jonathan Kent's case he's still fairly young too. I'd be up for a lot more comicbook characters figuring out different sides of themselves (not necessarily sexual oriention wise) in stead of remaining the same stagnant characters they've been for decades.

The only problem I have with this coming out is if it's just used as an initial marketing gimmick, if Jonathan being bi quickly disappears into the background, and if it's used as a line in the sand; 'This is as much as you gays are going to get.'
 
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Casual Shinji

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I don't know how that true that is. I mean, Miles Morales and Kamala Khan were popular enough to get their own videogames (sort of) before a shit ton of the mainstays. If there's good writing, it will have appeal. A good number of the new characters created over the past decade, who are usually young people of color, are still around and relevant today. They're not pillars of the industry like Batman or Spider-man, but they're here to stay. If these publishers want more diverse characters, they're gonna have to grow some balls (and apparently clean house of all their bigotry) and hire talented people who come from diverse backgrounds and can do these characters justice.
Yeah, but for Miles it took a bit though. And even then he's not what I would call an original superhero, since he rode the coattails of Spider-Man's popularity. So technically Miles was also created by pandering to the "SJW's", but I think we can safely say now that Miles is a generally well liked superhero in his own right.

So I think this idea of 'if it's not wholly original it has no meaning' is hardly the be all end all.
 

Xprimentyl

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Are they kissing or just pressing their mouthless faces together? I can't tell.
This can help open the door a bit more to that though. I'm sure there's plenty of people trying to get original representative characters out there, but will get halted by the ones in charge that feel that it's not familiar and therefor won't sell. By tying something still seen by many as unfamiliar, like being gay, to something that is seen as very familiar, like a well established Superman character, the later can help do some legwork for the former.

Ofcourse a wholly original LGBTQ+ superhero would be a lot more meaningful, but that doesn't mean representation of this kind has absolutely no meaning. And it's not like people can't find out later in life that they're gay or bi, and in Jonathan Kent's case he's still fairly young too. I'd be up for a lot more comicbook characters figuring out different sides of themselves (not necessarily sexual oriention wise) in stead of remaining the same stagnant characters they've been for decades.

The only problem I have with this coming out is if it's just used as an initial marketing gimmick, if Jonathan being bi quickly disappears into the background, and if it's used as a line in the sand; 'This is as much as you gays are going to get.'
I understand the "something is better than nothing mentality," but the effort is just superficial. I mean, if the big companies really cared about representing more than the cis fanbases, they would take that risk. Put a gay/bi/transgender/black (non-white) character out there and stand behind it. Making $uperman bi or a black Human Torch only goes to show how little risk they're willing to take to represent underrepresented people.

I'm not saying they need to die on the sword of representation for everyone, just don't condescend with efforts that are clearly self-serving and mitigated risks. "Oh, you don't like a bisexual Superman? Well, Superman has been notoriously popular for decades, so we guess YOU'RE the non-progressive one in this current narrative." Like the white woman who shows up to Black Lives Matter rallies only to cross the street when a black man approaches in her path.

Point being, they've not the cojones to start something new that could be popular, but unproven when money is involved. There's the disingenuousness. Point in case: the Black Panther; as a long-standing hero, had no real pop culture following until the movie came out, but at least he was original in that he was afro-centric and wasn't retroactively changed to fit a model of mandated modern inclusion. He was released as-is and became extremely popular. THAT I can respect, yet the industry doesn't have the balls to try it again even in an age of enlightenment when it could most likely succeed. A millionaire dropping a $5 bill into the cup of a beggar isn't representative of his/her grander altruism.

TL;DR? Do it or don't. When your interests supersede your efforts, your efforts are shallow.
 
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Worgen

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I understand the "something is better than nothing mentality," but the effort is just superficial. I mean, if the big companies really cared about representing more than the cis fanbases, they would take that risk. Put a gay/bi/transgender/black (non-white) character out there and stand behind it. Making $uperman bi or a black Human Torch only goes to show how little risk they're willing to take to represent underrepresented people.
I don't think that follows. I mean this isn't some C-lister or something, this is Superman, literally the most iconic super hero around. You best your ass there is a big risk doing something like this. I mean granted its being done with his son an not Clark Kent, but its still the superman name.
 

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I dont get the drama, good or bad behind this kind of comicbook lore. Superman is bi? Well, no, its his son, and this version of his son from this version of Earth from this version of the multiverse.
Remember when superman was fat? Or black? Or a dog? Or that time he was a communist? Or when he went blind? Or was a baby? Or was a toddler? Or any of the other one-off "what if" stories they do when readership drops and they want to make headlines and a few collector's edition cover arts?
And not that people should be hyped either. OMG Bi characters in DC! Well yeah, only because it doesn't matter at all. They can and probably will undo this the second the trades stop selling. Sexuality and gender identity matter as much to comic books as deaths and age do - not at all.
 

Xprimentyl

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I don't think that follows. I mean this isn't some C-lister or something, this is Superman, literally the most iconic super hero around. You best your ass there is a big risk doing something like this. I mean granted its being done with his son an not Clark Kent, but its still the superman name.
It's exactly because he's the most iconic super hero around that my sentiments DO follow. He's popular enough that a spell of bisexuality, if it doesn't work (as in "garner more readership and revenue,") they can back-pedal and move on like this stunt never happened. Not saying it'd be as abrasive as him saying "I'm not halfway into dudes anymore" in a single cell of the most recent edition of the comic, but it's easily dealt with by simply tapering off addressing of the issue, introducing a female love interest, and everyone has their cis Superman back. One could even argue that him being "bi" shows how little commitment they have on the issue of inclusion; if he goes "both ways," he can't go the wrong way, right?

It's focus testing. Burger King has the Impossible Whopper, their classic, signature burger, but vegetarian. If people hate it, they still have the regular Whopper on the menu. It wasn't an effort in Burger King's dedication to the preservation of cows; it was a shrewd attempt to expand their customer base by offering a herbivore option on a classically carnivore-centric menu. Ask the hundreds of cows with a pin through their brain how much they appreciate what the Impossible Whopper has done for them.

A millionaire playing the penny slots in Vegas isn't risking much. (I do love my analogies.)
 
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Worgen

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It's exactly because he's the most iconic super hero around that my sentiments DO follow. He's popular enough that a spell of bisexuality, if it doesn't work (as in "garner more readership and revenue,") they can back-pedal and move on like this stunt never happened. Not saying it'd be as abrasive as him saying "I'm not halfway into dudes anymore" in a single cell of the most recent edition of the comic, but it's easily dealt with by simply tapering off addressing of the issue, introducing a female love interest, and everyone has their cis Superman back. One could even argue that him being "bi" shows how little commitment they have on the issue of inclusion; if he goes "both ways," he can't go the wrong way, right?

It's focus testing. Burger King has the Impossible Whopper, their classic, signature burger, but vegetarian. If people hate it, they still have the regular Whopper on the menu. It wasn't an effort in Burger King's dedication to the preservation of cows; it was a shrewd attempt to expand their customer base by offering a herbivore option on a classically carnivore-centric menu. Ask the hundreds of cows with a pin through their brain how much they appreciate what the Impossible Whopper has done for them.

A millionaire playing the penny slots in Vegas isn't risking much. (I do love my analogies.)
That's actually a really bad analogy. You are essentially saying that the only one who could create a lgbtqpwtfbbq character would be an independent studio that risks it all on this character either taking off or they go under.
 

Xprimentyl

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That's actually a really bad analogy. You are essentially saying that the only one who could create a lgbtqpwtfbbq character would be an independent studio that risks it all on this character either taking off or they go under.
No, my analogy stands because we already have established studios who aren't willing to "risk" equal amounts of effort and money to include an original LGBTQ+ character. I never said it could only be done by an independent; that was a mental leap you took all on your own. I said the BIG studios won't try it earnestly. The closest we've come [to my recollection] was the recent Batwoman on the CW IIRC. She's a lesbian, but I've not watched the show nor heard how it faired, but I guarantee you, if it didn't rake in a shit-ton of cash, their next move won't be a gay Batman.
 
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Worgen

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No, my analogy stands because we already have established studios who aren't willing to "risk" equal amounts of effort and money to include an original LGBTQ+ character. I never said it could only be done by an independent; that was a mental leap you took all on your own. I said the BIG studios won't try it earnestly. The closest we've come [to my recollection] was the recent Batwoman on the CW IIRC. She's a lesbian, but I've not watched the show nor heard how it faired, but I guarantee you, if it didn't rake in a shit-ton of cash, their next move won't be a gay Batman.
That's silly and the cause of 4 out of 5 things. You don't get much bigger then Superman, I mean Batman has better movies and arguably a better animated series, but as I said, Superman is the most iconic super hero around.
 

Xprimentyl

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That's silly and the cause of 4 out of 5 things.
Not even sure what that's supposed to mean. Needs a peer review before I consider it beyond that.

You don't get much bigger then Superman, I mean Batman has better movies and arguably a better animated series, but as I said, Superman is the most iconic super hero around.
Don't get hung up on my real-case analogy. My POINT is that no one of note and with the means is willing to go all in on a non-novelty LGBTQ+ main character. They will, however, dip their toes in the water with the novelty of "mixing up" a cash cow for a minute or two. I mean, it's Superman; people will buy him on name alone. When people find out they've made him bi, they will or won't like it, but either way, money has been made. It's a shrewd and crude pretense of inclusivity. A more earnest outing would be a new hero who happens to be bi versus a popular, established, multi-million dollar hero who's suddenly sexually explorative 80 years after his inception, y'know, coincidentally when LGBTQ+ representation is à la mode.
 
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