Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade; states can ban abortion

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
12,393
6,499
118
Country
United Kingdom
That would be because you don't know nearly as much about American jurisprudence as you think you do. Posner's a senior lecturer at University of Chicago (as in "Chicago school" University of Chicago) and retired Justice of the Seventh Circuit Court. Regardless whose list you're reading of most influential jurists, he's going to be at the top or damned near it. Sure, he's a prolific writer on a broad range of topics, but I'm speaking exclusively to his citations as a legal scholar and jurist.

That is being representative on a specific topic; it's the dictionary definition of it.
*face palm*

Yes, I know who he is. Way to miss the point, which had zilch to do with anything outside of law.

He's very widely cited on a broad range of LEGAL questions. That says precisely bugger all about whether his opinion on the topic of DRED SCOTT is representative of the consensus.

(Putting aside for a moment that that's not even close to the definition of being representative anyway).
 

Trunkage

Nascent Orca
Legacy
Jun 21, 2012
9,132
3,077
118
Brisbane
Gender
Cyborg
More or less what @Bedinsis said, with the line I vaguely consider reasonable being when the Fetus can truly feel pain, being that they have all the correct shit formed for signals to travel to the brain and go 'fuck, that hurts', or whatever someone who hasn't heard the word fuck before would say. This may or may not leave open the possibility that a conscious entity exists beforehand, but we don't have any surefire way to measure fetal consciousness with 100% accuracy, so that's my cutoff. If they're 'conscious', at least they don't suffer.

In quicker terms, I support the right to do you your body as you desire, until/unless it stops being just your body. At which point, it becomes a rental.
I wonder what Grand Nagus Rom says about that
 

Schadrach

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 20, 2010
2,216
434
88
Country
US
Well, now I've read the article and the tweet is a hair misleading - they make it sound as though the FBI is just looking to round up protesters or something, just because they attended a BLM protest. Doubly so because they suggest future use to just generically grab everyone who passes too close to an abortion clinic to round them for investigation.

What they were actually doing is investigating an attempted arson using a pair of molotovs. The warrant was limited to the block the building was on and the approximate time they tried to set it on fire (read: was as narrow as it could be and still be useful). I mean I guess if you didn't realize all your data are belong to corps and you agreed that most such corps can do whatever they please with that data that might be a wakeup call, but that's a lot less dystopian use of such a warrant than they imply in the tweets.

Personally I'd be disappointed if there wasn't a similar warrant for 1/6, area covering inside the Capitol during the time of the breach.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,324
970
118
Country
USA
Putting another bullet in tribal sovereignty while they're at it

You can't possibly believe this is a bad thing, can you? The alternative is a status quo where outsiders can go onto reservations, commit crimes against the people there, and be immune from both state and tribal prosecution, leaving only the federal government with jurisdiction.
 

SilentPony

Previously known as an alleged "Feather-Rustler"
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
12,059
2,472
118
Corner of No and Where

Okay someone less cynical explain this to me. Biden wants to undo the filibuster. Sure, it'll never happen, but lets say it does. Then pass abortion rights into law. Sure, it'll never happen, but lets say it does.
So in order to show the Supreme Court, who upholds or strikes down laws as they see fit, who is boss over striking down Abortions rights in law, the Dems are going to...pass a law with abortion rights that now comes under the legal purview of the Supreme Court. A Court that is allowed to strike down laws.
See where Im going with this? What's the strategy here? The Dems have been bringing a knife to a gunfight against the GOP for a generation now, and their response after getting their asses handed to them is to try a different knife? The style of knife was never the issue, the other team has a gun!
 

Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

Get the point
Legacy
Aug 1, 2011
2,946
523
118
Cretaceous
Country
USA
Gender
Dinosaur

Looks like this midterms will be our last free election.
 

Bedinsis

Elite Member
Legacy
Escapist +
May 29, 2014
1,708
875
118
Country
Sweden

Okay someone less cynical explain this to me. Biden wants to undo the filibuster. Sure, it'll never happen, but lets say it does. Then pass abortion rights into law. Sure, it'll never happen, but lets say it does.
So in order to show the Supreme Court, who upholds or strikes down laws as they see fit, who is boss over striking down Abortions rights in law, the Dems are going to...pass a law with abortion rights that now comes under the legal purview of the Supreme Court. A Court that is allowed to strike down laws.
See where Im going with this? What's the strategy here? The Dems have been bringing a knife to a gunfight against the GOP for a generation now, and their response after getting their asses handed to them is to try a different knife? The style of knife was never the issue, the other team has a gun!
Well I might be completely wrong here (seriously, if anyone knows more, I would gladly hear it), but I believe it goes that congress makes laws which judges then interpret when determining how to judge someone that is on trial for a crime. Some things are never explicitly written down as laws from congress which leads to situations where judges have to interpret what law there is, and if the ambiguity is big enough it might end up in the supreme court where the result is used as precedent in similar cases. Roe v Wade was such a case, so the books are still open for congress to pass laws ensuring the right to abortion(or limiting access to abortion, wherever congress falls on that issue) on a federal level, and if that law is not in violation with any other law and comes to pass the supreme court will have to make all their judgements going forward with this new law officially on the books.

I mean, the reasoning the supreme court used in striking down Roe v Wade was "The Constitution makes no reference to abortion, and no such right is implicitly protected by any constitutional provision.". In other words, they had little explicit law to go on hence why they had to make a judgement call and could strike it down. If there is little law to go on with regards to abortion then they cannot really strike down a proposed federal law on abortion, one that would presumably ensure that right.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Specter Von Baren

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Sep 16, 2014
8,519
7,115
118
Country
United States
Well I might be completely wrong here (seriously, if anyone knows more, I would gladly hear it), but I believe it goes that congress makes laws which judges then interpret when determining how to judge someone that is on trial for a crime. Some things are never explicitly written down as laws from congress which leads to situations where judges have to interpret what law there is, and if the ambiguity is big enough it might end up in the supreme court where the result is used as precedent in similar cases. Roe v Wade was such a case, so the books are still open for congress to pass laws ensuring the right to abortion(or limiting access to abortion, wherever congress falls on that issue) on a federal level, and if that law is not in violation with any other law and comes to pass the supreme court will have to make all their judgements going forward with this new law officially on the books.

I mean, the reasoning the supreme court used in striking down Roe v Wade was "The Constitution makes no reference to abortion, and no such right is implicitly protected by any constitutional provision.". In other words, they had little explicit law to go on hence why they had to make a judgement call and could strike it down. If there is little law to go on with regards to abortion then they cannot really strike down a proposed federal law on abortion, one that would presumably ensure that right.
That's how they'll justify a federal abortion ban, sure. If it's a federal law the protects abortion, they'll say that the constitution doesn't mention abortion so the Fed's don't have a right to make that law.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Sep 16, 2014
8,519
7,115
118
Country
United States

Looks like this midterms will be our last free election.
State's Rights means state legislatures with zero oversite or accountability to *checks notes* governors, state courts, federal courts, or the general population using state constitutional ballot initiatives.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

dreng3

Elite Member
Aug 23, 2011
757
396
68
Country
Denmark
So in order to show the Supreme Court, who upholds or strikes down laws as they see fit, who is boss over striking down Abortions rights in law, the Dems are going to...pass a law with abortion rights that now comes under the legal purview of the Supreme Court. A Court that is allowed to strike down laws.
Fun fact, the permission to declare a law unconstitutional and strike it down was never actually granted to the supreme court, they just decided that they had the ability to do so when they decided Marbury v. Madison.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
12,393
6,499
118
Country
United Kingdom
That's how they'll justify a federal abortion ban, sure. If it's a federal law the protects abortion, they'll say that the constitution doesn't mention abortion so the Fed's don't have a right to make that law.
Well, that's not quite how it works. SCOTUS can only block a federal or state law if it goes against a positive reference in the Constitution.

Something merely not appearing in the Constitution wouldn't provide grounds to do so. It does, however, provide grounds to overturn a previous SCOTUS ruling (as happened with Roe v. Wade).

Now, that's categorically not to say that the justices won't stretch constitutional 'interpretation' beyond all recognition to get a certain outcome when it comes to a federal/ state law. They absolutely will. But it won't be by stating the topic isn't covered by the Constitution; it'll rather be by stating that the Constitution does cover it, in the way that they want, by some tenuous or convenient logic.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrawlMan

dreng3

Elite Member
Aug 23, 2011
757
396
68
Country
Denmark
Well, that's not quite how it works. SCOTUS can only block a federal or state law if it goes against a positive reference in the Constitution.
That is incorrect. The Supreme Court has decided that it is allowed to negate unconstitutional laws, that was never a power explicitly granted to the court. However, congress is only allowed to legislate on matters permitted by the constitution.

So, not only is congress not allowed to legislate on abortion, unless they can fit it into one of the categories of things they are allowed to legislate on, SCOTUS is not, by any say but their own, allowed to strike down such legislation.
 

SilentPony

Previously known as an alleged "Feather-Rustler"
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
12,059
2,472
118
Corner of No and Where
Fun fact, the permission to declare a law unconstitutional and strike it down was never actually granted to the supreme court, they just decided that they had the ability to do so when they decided Marbury v. Madison.
Wouldn't it be great to force a constitutional crisis by suing the Government saying the courts don't have a right to strike down laws, it goes all the way to the supreme court and then asking them all to recuse themselves because they can't judge and rule on their own cases.
 

Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

Get the point
Legacy
Aug 1, 2011
2,946
523
118
Cretaceous
Country
USA
Gender
Dinosaur
Wouldn't it be great to force a constitutional crisis by suing the Government saying the courts don't have a right to strike down laws, it goes all the way to the supreme court and then asking them all to recuse themselves because they can't judge and rule on their own cases.
from what I've looked up you can't actually sue the Supreme Court. so they have zero checks and balances.
 

Seanchaidh

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 21, 2009
5,876
3,566
118
Country
United States of America
The alternative is a status quo where outsiders can go onto reservations, commit crimes against the people there, and be immune from both state and tribal prosecution, leaving only the federal government with jurisdiction.
Really, that's the only alternative?