Sweden approves EU data directive (forces isp to save data)

[MrTub]

Well, recently Swedish government passed EU data directive[footnote]http://www.thelocal.se/39812/20120321/[/footnote] that EU have have been trying to force us to approve[footnote]http://www.thelocal.se/19680/20090526/[/footnote] and I guess they finally got what they wanted. (One reason for passing it according to some politicians is that it would be to expensive to face the fines, even though it will cost around 1 billion Swedish kr to implement the law, which the customers have to pay)

The law will force all our isp & phone providers to store data for at least 6 month
"According to the EU data retention directive, internet providers of all member states will be under the same obligation to store citizens' telecommunications data from six months to up to two years.

The police and security agencies will also have the right to request access to this data, such as IP addresses, emails, phone calls, and text messages in order to use the information in crime prevention."[footnote]http://www.thelocal.se/32642/20110316/ [/footnote]

And this is about the same time where our government want our police to be able to use our FRA law[footnote]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FRA_law[/footnote][footnote]http://www.thelocal.se/37820/20111208/[/footnote]
"The FRA law (FRA-lagen in Swedish) is a Swedish legislative package that authorizes the swedish state to warrantlessly wiretap all telephone and Internet traffic that crosses Sweden's borders." Which previously was only available to a civilian part of our military.

And in response to the Data directive one of our biggest isp providers (Bahnhof) will be be funneling all their clients through a "?anonomityserver?" I guess the same way Ipredator [https://www.ipredator.se/] is doing so everyone will appear to have the same IP (Sadly only got source in Swedish, so google translate to the rescue..)[footnote]http://translate.google.se/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsvt.se%2F2.22620%2F1.2749633%2Fbahnhof_vi_anonymiserar_alla%3Flid%3Dpuff_2749633%26lpos%3Drubrik&act=url[/footnote]

Quote from the CEO of Bahnhof

"Jon Karlung, chair of internet provider Bahnhof, is a staunch critic of the law, which he characterized as "mass surveillance".

In an effort to protect its clients, Bahnhof is planning to ensure that all of its users remain anonymous online by creating a system that would assign all customers the same IP address.

"And if they want their data to be stored, they'll have to pay extra for it. My plan is that our entire stock of customers can be made anonymous and that will happen in the second half of the year," he told the TT news agency."[footnote]http://www.thelocal.se/39812/20120321/[/footnote]


So my first question is:

Do you think the government should be able to have access to the data and do you think its fine that they should force the companies to save the data?

Second question is:

Do you support Bahnhof attempt to keep their customers data private or do you think it will only lead to internet crime being easier to commit and harder to track?



Keep in mind when we launched IPRED (Anti piracy bill) it only resulted in our ISP stopped storing any data which meant that it became much harder for our police to investigate child porn and funny enough much harder for them to investigate copyright infringement (Only found swedish source :/[footnote]http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/ipred/article12116010.ab[/footnote])

I'm sorry for any misspelt words or if my grammar is bad

 

[theSteamSupported]

As long as said surveillance organ isn't exploited for the purpose of censorship, page blocking or monopolization, I don't have any problems with the government monitoring what I do on the internet.

I have been far more concerned over anti-piracy laws like SOPA, and trade agreements like ACTA. That's because they are, as opposed to surveillance laws, actually restraining internet freedom by promoting censorship, access limitation and monopolies.

If you have nothing to fear, you have nothing to hide. Honesty over integrity.

 

[MrTub]

I have nothing to hide, but I still value my privacy.. but I guess most people do not these days.

 

[NortherWolf]

Trust me Tubez, not the right site for this. Not at all.

 

[renegade7]

ISPs already do this. This just gives them the government green light.

 

[MrTub]

ISPs already do this. This just gives them the government green light.

I might be wrong but as far as I know, most of our isp stopped storing data after swedish government passed IPRED (anti piracy bill)

 

[Phisi]

I would prefer it being impossible and or illegal for companies to monitor data(corporate espionage or exposing the privacy of individuals) with the use of anonymity servers though I do think there is no harm with the government monitoring the data that comes from the server to try and capture serious offences. I don't trust my government or more accurately the people working for it to protect my privacy or others privacy (public figures and whatnot). So yeah, I am quite okay with this as long as Sweden doesn't make the anonymity servers illegal.

 

[Flames66]

I would prefer it being impossible and or illegal for companies to monitor data(corporate espionage or exposing the privacy of individuals) with the use of anonymity servers though I do think there is no harm with the government monitoring the data that comes from the server to try and capture serious offences. I don't trust my government or more accurately the people working for it to protect my privacy or others privacy (public figures and whatnot). So yeah, I am quite okay with this as long as Sweden doesn't make the anonymity servers illegal.

I am afraid I must disagree. Any government having the ability to monitor it's citizens communications is a massive breach of privacy and must be stopped. I will personally be contacting my local representatives about this issue and urge others (especially those in Sweden) to do the same.

 

[Naeras]

ISPs already do this. This just gives them the government green light.

For billing reasons, yes. The thing is, here in Norway they're forced to delete that data after 3 months for privacy protection. This directive requires them to save it for at least six months.

I've never heard a single good argument for how this is in any way beneficial. It costs money, it infringes on privacy and the saved information will be compromised at some point. The police themselves have flat-out admitted that information that's more than 3 months old is pretty much useless, and that it's not effective against organized crime in the first place as they don't really communicate that much on the phone. It's completely legal(and very easy) to circumvent the entire directive(TOR for surfing, Skype for communication). The only guys who will suffer as a result of this is regular people who got their networks hacked by someone who uses their network to download child pornography.

It's a useless fucking directive, and I'm not really sure how legal the directive even is(hello Germany).

 

[idarkphoenixi]

Notice how they use the words "to prevent crimes". So without needing any real proof except the accusation of you being a criminal they can collect all this insane data.

As Spiderman's uncle should have said : "With great power comes great abuse of power"

 

[MrTub]

Isn't that FRA law and data retention a breach of EU directives regarding privacy (I remember title 94/96, if I remember correct) which take precedence over Swedish law?

It's EU that is wants us to implement the data retention law, we have already been sued for failing to do so. And the funny part is that the 1 billion swedish kr it will cost to implement will be forced on the isp/phone providers (aka the customers) As for the FRA law the only problem they had with it, was because we could listen on everything that norway was doing (since most of their trafic goes through sweden)

 

[Vegosiux]

Wait wait, "storing" the data? That means that they already have the data to begin with, you can't store what you don't have.

And honestly, the telecomm companies do need to collect the data to begin with, not only for law enforcement, but you know, one day I get a 150? telephone bill, first thing I'll do, I'll call my company and request a print-out of just what was going on with my number in the last month. And in order to have that option, well, they have to collect the data on what numbers were called. With ISP's that's different tho, unless you're on dial-up, I suppose, so yeah, there's that...

I mean, it's not a directive allowing the government to bug your lines whenever they damn feel like, of course I wouldn't support that.

 

[MrTub]

Wait wait, "storing" the data? That means that they already have the data to begin with, you can't store what you don't have.

And honestly, the telecomm companies do need to collect the data to begin with, not only for law enforcement, but you know, one day I get a 150? telephone bill, first thing I'll do, I'll call my company and request a print-out of just what was going on with my number in the last month. And in order to have that option, well, they have to collect the data on what numbers were called.

I mean, it's not a directive allowing the government to bug your lines whenever they damn feel like, of course I wouldn't support that.

The thing is with some of our ISP they are not storing any data. As soon as they get it, they will delete it since they do not want hand out stuff to the Swedish Anti-Piracy Bureau. (IPRED)


And with FRA they are already able to bug any communication that leaves Sweden (And they want our police to have access to that data) And they also want to ban encryption in VOIP (Voice over IP) aka skype and such.

 

[Yopaz]

Wait wait, "storing" the data? That means that they already have the data to begin with, you can't store what you don't have.

And honestly, the telecomm companies do need to collect the data to begin with, not only for law enforcement, but you know, one day I get a 150? telephone bill, first thing I'll do, I'll call my company and request a print-out of just what was going on with my number in the last month. And in order to have that option, well, they have to collect the data on what numbers were called.

I mean, it's not a directive allowing the government to bug your lines whenever they damn feel like, of course I wouldn't support that.

Actually that is pretty much what this is. This allows the government to access your complete web history including all emails you have sent without giving any reason. This removes a law that protects our privacy (no third party should have access to this data, it has to be deleted within 3 months) to one that violates our privacy.

 

[Vegosiux]

And with FRA they are already able to bug any communication that leaves Sweden (And they want our police to have access to that data) And they also want to ban encryption in VOIP (Voice over IP) aka skype and such.

Yeah, that I'm opposed to. I think it all falls down to what helps exercise my rights, and what infringes on them. Phone company keeping tabs on the numbers called can help if I want to go for a reclaim action because my bill depends on that, but keeping tabs on what sites I visit doesn't serve any such purpose, so, yeah, hands off that.

Actually that is pretty much what this is. This allows the government to access your complete web history including all emails you have sent without giving any reason. This removes a law that protects our privacy (no third party should have access to this data, it has to be deleted within 3 months) to one that violates our privacy.

Well I don't see it clearly what it is - does it only let them see that you sent a mail, or does it actually let them read it too? Because one is not as bad as the other. As I said, I'm only in favor of keeping the data in case of a clear benefit and no violation of my rights.

 

[MrTub]

Wait wait, "storing" the data? That means that they already have the data to begin with, you can't store what you don't have.

And honestly, the telecomm companies do need to collect the data to begin with, not only for law enforcement, but you know, one day I get a 150? telephone bill, first thing I'll do, I'll call my company and request a print-out of just what was going on with my number in the last month. And in order to have that option, well, they have to collect the data on what numbers were called.

I mean, it's not a directive allowing the government to bug your lines whenever they damn feel like, of course I wouldn't support that.

Actually that is pretty much what this is. This allows the government to access your complete web history including all emails you have sent without giving any reason. This removes a law that protects our privacy (no third party should have access to this data, it has to be deleted within 3 months) to one that violates our privacy.

Yep.

One interesting thing is that one of the few parties that was against this was our Vänstern(Which many people refers to communists) while both our Right(Moderaterna) and biggest left party (Socialdemokraterna ) was for it. And considering how many people feel about communist I would expect them to be the first party to want the government to be able to watch everything.

 

[MrTub]

And with FRA they are already able to bug any communication that leaves Sweden (And they want our police to have access to that data) And they also want to ban encryption in VOIP (Voice over IP) aka skype and such.

Yeah, that I'm opposed to. I think it all falls down to what helps exercise my rights, and what infringes on them. Phone company keeping tabs on the numbers called can help if I want to go for a reclaim action because my bill depends on that, but keeping tabs on what sites I visit doesn't serve any such purpose, so, yeah, hands off that.

Actually that is pretty much what this is. This allows the government to access your complete web history including all emails you have sent without giving any reason. This removes a law that protects our privacy (no third party should have access to this data, it has to be deleted within 3 months) to one that violates our privacy.

Well I don't see it clearly what it is - does it only let them see that you sent a mail, or does it actually let them read it too? Because one is not as bad as the other. As I said, I'm only in favor of keeping the data in case of a clear benefit and no violation of my rights.

"The police and security agencies will also have the right to request access to this data, such as IP addresses, emails, phone calls, and text messages in order to use the information in crime prevention"

So I would have to assume they would be able to read emails and such.

 

[Vegosiux]

Wait wait, "storing" the data? That means that they already have the data to begin with, you can't store what you don't have.

And honestly, the telecomm companies do need to collect the data to begin with, not only for law enforcement, but you know, one day I get a 150? telephone bill, first thing I'll do, I'll call my company and request a print-out of just what was going on with my number in the last month. And in order to have that option, well, they have to collect the data on what numbers were called.

I mean, it's not a directive allowing the government to bug your lines whenever they damn feel like, of course I wouldn't support that.

Actually that is pretty much what this is. This allows the government to access your complete web history including all emails you have sent without giving any reason. This removes a law that protects our privacy (no third party should have access to this data, it has to be deleted within 3 months) to one that violates our privacy.

Yep.

One interesting thing is that one of the few parties that was against this was our Vänstern(Which many people refers to communists) while both our Right(Moderaterna) and biggest left party (Socialdemokraterna ) was for it. And considering how many people feel about communist I would expect them to be the first party to want the government to be able to watch everything.

On a less serious note, when it comes to my web privacy I wouldn't fear the government nearly as much as I'd fear a jealous ex - those can dig up stuff no government in the world can.

*ahem* Yeah, just thought this was a good place for a silly joke. In any case, if the directive is that invasive and violates the rights, you better stir up an uproar.

 

[devotedsniper]

6 months of data in emails alone will require gigantic storage facilities, ISP's might have the cash to afford something like that but it just goes to show that once again goverments who make these sorts of decisions have no idea about what it takes to implement something like this.

Thousands of pounds(well euro's) will have to go into coping with the mass amount of copying, will need alot of hard drives, along with more servers to cope with the mass processing becuase your effectivly doubling the amount of work it's no longer, receive, process, send and delete.

 

[Naeras]

Wait, this actually passed in Sweden?

Why the hell haven't they thrown up a gigantic shitstorm yet?

The media hardly mentioned that the thing got passed here in Norway, I imagine the same thing happened there.